BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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The fish still getting in the way.0
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Brexit Commentary twitter tonight can be summed up as,
"Britain says Deal still difficult" = Deal Now Certain!
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Edit - Some of the more knowledgable suggesting that the issue is that it's time for Johnson to make a decision now and he can't. "This is it! Big Boy Pants Time! etc"
Brexit finally has to be written down in black and white and all the promises will be unequivocally shown to have been complete fabrications
⁉⁉⁉We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Christ just give it all up for a proper concession who cares.TheBigBean said:The fish still getting in the way.
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I think the UK keeps telling the EU that.rick_chasey said:
Christ just give it all up for a proper concession who cares.TheBigBean said:The fish still getting in the way.
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ddraver said:
Brexit Commentary twitter tonight can be summed up as,
"Britain says Deal still difficult" = Deal Now Certain!
⁉
Edit - Some of the more knowledgable suggesting that the issue is that it's time for Johnson to make a decision now and he can't. "This is it! Big Boy Pants Time! etc"
Brexit finally has to be written down in black and white and all the promises will be unequivocally shown to have been complete fabrications
⁉⁉⁉
As Matthew Parris commented, once you try to write down in detail what Brexit actually involves, you realise it's a pile of poo. Well, he didn't write that exactly, but that was the sentiment.0 -
I don't know.john80 said:
Was Andrew Neil misinterpreting the wording of 5c.kingstongraham said:
"Do you know what is in 5C?"john80 said:
I don't really get Andrew Neils gotcha moment. At the beginning Boris freely concedes that both parties have to mutually agree. He then goes onto quote article 5C stating that both sides have to agree the shape of a deal and some timescales. Is the shape of that deal not in some form after 4 years of process and is it so hard for both parties to agree a timescale. The reality is that if a deal is agreed between both parties and not ratified then it is logical to conclude that this would meet the terms of 5C.tailwindhome said:Yeah, here's the clip
"Get the detail right"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-48971407
So many libtard tears eh?
It reminds me of Peter O'Hanarha-hanrahan:
https://youtu.be/7Bq_dkPkQUU0 -
(if you, like me, are still a bit of a sucker for these things,) The latest Grand Tour episode has been released a day early on A***** P****.
It is quite startling how openly pro-remain it is.
Especially as this is a program which, let's be honest, slants more toward leave voters...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Eugh if Brits knew what was good for them they’d trade fish for FS.TheBigBean said:
I think the UK keeps telling the EU that.rick_chasey said:
Christ just give it all up for a proper concession who cares.TheBigBean said:The fish still getting in the way.
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The French being single minded negotiators was always a known unknown.john80 said:
The French cake and eat it approach is a tough one. Does not get a lot of coverage on here though.Pross said:Bridging fisheries is challenging apparently.
THEIR obsession with fish should have been our strongest card, the anvil on which we broke EU unity and ensured the safety of our key industries.0 -
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Can you tell me what concessions the EU have made since the first day of negotiations? It's been fold after fold after fold from the uk with nothing in return.rick_chasey said:
I'm not even sure what the current hold up is. It's not simply "fish" and it is not being well reported. I dont even think it is access to uk waters but the UK wanting it to stop from 1st Jan and eu wanting a transition over a few months.0 -
Ivan Rogers said if you want to know what the EU is thinking then read their words. As a collective they have to agree a position and stick to it, if Barnier went off and did his own thing he would then need each country to agree on where he landed.darkhairedlord said:
Can you tell me what concessions the EU have made since the first day of negotiations? It's been fold after fold after fold from the uk with nothing in return.rick_chasey said:
I'm not even sure what the current hold up is. It's not simply "fish" and it is not being well reported. I dont even think it is access to uk waters but the UK wanting it to stop from 1st Jan and eu wanting a transition over a few months.
Boris's "Cake and Eat it" public declaration of his position may prove to be one of the most harmful phrases ever uttered.0 -
It’s almost worthless - why hang on to it?TheBigBean said:
I think the UK keeps telling the EU that.rick_chasey said:
Christ just give it all up for a proper concession who cares.TheBigBean said:The fish still getting in the way.
Mortstar was here talking up fishing as leverage but it’s not leverage if you treat it like the Crown Jewels.0 -
I think the thing is, like it or not, whilst FS might bring significantly more to the UK economy it isn't tangible to the vast majority of the electorate who don't work there. I suspect there are many who see FS as people getting rich without producing anything and it's not a vote winner (especially not post GFC).rick_chasey said:
It’s almost worthless - why hang on to it?TheBigBean said:
I think the UK keeps telling the EU that.rick_chasey said:
Christ just give it all up for a proper concession who cares.TheBigBean said:The fish still getting in the way.
Mortstar was here talking up fishing as leverage but it’s not leverage if you treat it like the Crown Jewels.
By contrast there's a romanticised vision of fishermen going out in their little boats, fighting the dangers of the seas to supply our chippies with cod, plaice and haddock and they are in danger of losing their livelihoods to the pesky French and Spanish who have already stolen it from a large part of our fleet. I suspect fighting for fishing rights plays well politically as a result especially those that recall the cod wars.
The media portrayal of fishing probably perpetuates this. Whenever they interview a fisherman it seems to be on a small boat in a pretty traditional fishing harbour. They never speak to someone onboard a massive factory ship that catches the majority of the fish we consume.0 -
Sure i get that, but we all want to be rich.
There's a reason none of us are fisherman - it's a rough job
Lets face it, many of us do bullsh!t jobs that wouldn't be missed if we all stopped working tomorrow.
We wouldn't do it if the pay was OK.0 -
I think that’s exactly what we’ve tried. It hasn’t worked due to Eu being totally resolved.surrey_commuter said:
The French being single minded negotiators was always a known unknown.john80 said:
The French cake and eat it approach is a tough one. Does not get a lot of coverage on here though.Pross said:Bridging fisheries is challenging apparently.
THEIR obsession with fish should have been our strongest card, the anvil on which we broke EU unity and ensured the safety of our key industries.
The weird thing is there 100% is cake and eat it form the French regarding fishing.
If they realised they can’t retain fishing rights without a deal, maybe they’d have moved.
Essentially, any deal is being thwarted by two cake and eat it positions and both sides believing the other will flex unilaterally on a key principle.
Why haven’t they. French believe they can continue to fish regardless and we believe/d they would flex to retain fishing access.
It all comes down to the fish. It’s our leverage. It hasn’t worked but the Eu are losing out due to inflexibility*. I’m a remainer but I do blame the Eu on this one.
*it’s a given that we’re already losing out.0 -
See above. I can’t believe you still think of in terms of absolute size.rick_chasey said:
It’s almost worthless - why hang on to it?TheBigBean said:
I think the UK keeps telling the EU that.rick_chasey said:
Christ just give it all up for a proper concession who cares.TheBigBean said:The fish still getting in the way.
Mortstar was here talking up fishing as leverage but it’s not leverage if you treat it like the Crown Jewels.
FFS, the only reason the Eu haven’t flexed is because the French think they’re going to carry on fishing anyway.
And don’t try and misrepresent me as claiming fishing is more important than FS. I am not and never have despite attempts to interpret it that way.
What I have consistently tried to explain is why it is so important to the negotiation.
Clearly I’ve failed on here but those around the negotiating table understand it so it’s not my problem.0 -
SC has said exactly the same thing. Using it as the anvil and sow discord.0
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I'm not saying you think it's more important than FS, to be clear.morstar said:
See above. I can’t believe you still think of in terms of absolute size.rick_chasey said:
It’s almost worthless - why hang on to it?TheBigBean said:
I think the UK keeps telling the EU that.rick_chasey said:
Christ just give it all up for a proper concession who cares.TheBigBean said:The fish still getting in the way.
Mortstar was here talking up fishing as leverage but it’s not leverage if you treat it like the Crown Jewels.
FFS, the only reason the Eu haven’t flexed is because the French think they’re going to carry on fishing anyway.
And don’t try and misrepresent me as claiming fishing is more important than FS. I am not and never have despite attempts to interpret it that way.
What I have consistently tried to explain is why it is so important to the negotiation.
Clearly I’ve failed on here but those around the negotiating table understand it so it’s not my problem.
But I think the behaviour of the UK and how it is playing out in the press is not indicative of it being leverage, which is what I am disagreeing with you about.
I remember the "boat wars" during the referendum. You think too highly of this particular government if you think they don't attach the same the sentimental value of fishing over some larger industries I think you've misunderstood what the brexiters are all about.0 -
I think the Brexiteer boat imagery is all just that, imagery.rick_chasey said:
I'm not saying you think it's more important than FS, to be clear.morstar said:
See above. I can’t believe you still think of in terms of absolute size.rick_chasey said:
It’s almost worthless - why hang on to it?TheBigBean said:
I think the UK keeps telling the EU that.rick_chasey said:
Christ just give it all up for a proper concession who cares.TheBigBean said:The fish still getting in the way.
Mortstar was here talking up fishing as leverage but it’s not leverage if you treat it like the Crown Jewels.
FFS, the only reason the Eu haven’t flexed is because the French think they’re going to carry on fishing anyway.
And don’t try and misrepresent me as claiming fishing is more important than FS. I am not and never have despite attempts to interpret it that way.
What I have consistently tried to explain is why it is so important to the negotiation.
Clearly I’ve failed on here but those around the negotiating table understand it so it’s not my problem.
But I think the behaviour of the UK and how it is playing out in the press is not indicative of it being leverage, which is what I am disagreeing with you about.
I remember the "boat wars" during the referendum. You think too highly of this particular government if you think they don't attach the same the sentimental value of fishing over some larger industries I think you've misunderstood what the brexiters are all about.
The way I see Brexit is a couple of fundamental principles that have been held dear by a significant minority. Free trade and sovereignty.
To get the mass buy in, any available lever was used to extol the perceived benefits to the masses of a world outside the Eu.
One of those was patriotism and projection of power. Fleets of small boats are apparently a good emotional lever to do that. Lots of good visuals and can be related to wars and conflicts which ticks more nostalgia boxes.
I don’t in any way believe fishing rights are an end game. I suspect Farage did benefit financially from flying that flag though.0 -
rick_chasey said:
Eugh if Brits knew what was good for them they’d trade fish for FS.TheBigBean said:
I think the UK keeps telling the EU that.rick_chasey said:
Christ just give it all up for a proper concession who cares.TheBigBean said:The fish still getting in the way.
That's a huge "if"...Ben
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Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ben_h_ppcc/
Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/143173475@N05/0 -
Lol belief in free trade are you kidding me.morstar said:
I think the Brexiteer boat imagery is all just that, imagery.rick_chasey said:
I'm not saying you think it's more important than FS, to be clear.morstar said:
See above. I can’t believe you still think of in terms of absolute size.rick_chasey said:
It’s almost worthless - why hang on to it?TheBigBean said:
I think the UK keeps telling the EU that.rick_chasey said:
Christ just give it all up for a proper concession who cares.TheBigBean said:The fish still getting in the way.
Mortstar was here talking up fishing as leverage but it’s not leverage if you treat it like the Crown Jewels.
FFS, the only reason the Eu haven’t flexed is because the French think they’re going to carry on fishing anyway.
And don’t try and misrepresent me as claiming fishing is more important than FS. I am not and never have despite attempts to interpret it that way.
What I have consistently tried to explain is why it is so important to the negotiation.
Clearly I’ve failed on here but those around the negotiating table understand it so it’s not my problem.
But I think the behaviour of the UK and how it is playing out in the press is not indicative of it being leverage, which is what I am disagreeing with you about.
I remember the "boat wars" during the referendum. You think too highly of this particular government if you think they don't attach the same the sentimental value of fishing over some larger industries I think you've misunderstood what the brexiters are all about.
The way I see Brexit is a couple of fundamental principles that have been held dear by a significant minority. Free trade and sovereignty.
To get the mass buy in, any available lever was used to extol the perceived benefits to the masses of a world outside the Eu.
One of those was patriotism and projection of power. Fleets of small boats are apparently a good emotional lever to do that. Lots of good visuals and can be related to wars and conflicts which ticks more nostalgia boxes.
I don’t in any way believe fishing rights are an end game. I suspect Farage did benefit financially from flying that flag though.0 -
I’m using the term loosely to encompass lots.rick_chasey said:
Lol belief in free trade are you kidding me.morstar said:
I think the Brexiteer boat imagery is all just that, imagery.rick_chasey said:
I'm not saying you think it's more important than FS, to be clear.morstar said:
See above. I can’t believe you still think of in terms of absolute size.rick_chasey said:
It’s almost worthless - why hang on to it?TheBigBean said:
I think the UK keeps telling the EU that.rick_chasey said:
Christ just give it all up for a proper concession who cares.TheBigBean said:The fish still getting in the way.
Mortstar was here talking up fishing as leverage but it’s not leverage if you treat it like the Crown Jewels.
FFS, the only reason the Eu haven’t flexed is because the French think they’re going to carry on fishing anyway.
And don’t try and misrepresent me as claiming fishing is more important than FS. I am not and never have despite attempts to interpret it that way.
What I have consistently tried to explain is why it is so important to the negotiation.
Clearly I’ve failed on here but those around the negotiating table understand it so it’s not my problem.
But I think the behaviour of the UK and how it is playing out in the press is not indicative of it being leverage, which is what I am disagreeing with you about.
I remember the "boat wars" during the referendum. You think too highly of this particular government if you think they don't attach the same the sentimental value of fishing over some larger industries I think you've misunderstood what the brexiters are all about.
The way I see Brexit is a couple of fundamental principles that have been held dear by a significant minority. Free trade and sovereignty.
To get the mass buy in, any available lever was used to extol the perceived benefits to the masses of a world outside the Eu.
One of those was patriotism and projection of power. Fleets of small boats are apparently a good emotional lever to do that. Lots of good visuals and can be related to wars and conflicts which ticks more nostalgia boxes.
I don’t in any way believe fishing rights are an end game. I suspect Farage did benefit financially from flying that flag though.
Trade outside of Eu regulations is probably better.
Bonfire of standards the objective.
To paraphrase, US style capitalism was/is the Tory Beexiteer objective.
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We don't need to do any deals on FS.rick_chasey said:
Eugh if Brits knew what was good for them they’d trade fish for FS.TheBigBean said:
I think the UK keeps telling the EU that.rick_chasey said:
Christ just give it all up for a proper concession who cares.TheBigBean said:The fish still getting in the way.
It's position in Europe is protected due to its dominance because underneath it is the best and cheapest due to its size.-1 -
What a strange hill to die on if you believe the EU is about free trade!rick_chasey said:
Lol belief in free trade are you kidding me.morstar said:
I think the Brexiteer boat imagery is all just that, imagery.rick_chasey said:
I'm not saying you think it's more important than FS, to be clear.morstar said:
See above. I can’t believe you still think of in terms of absolute size.rick_chasey said:
It’s almost worthless - why hang on to it?TheBigBean said:
I think the UK keeps telling the EU that.rick_chasey said:
Christ just give it all up for a proper concession who cares.TheBigBean said:The fish still getting in the way.
Mortstar was here talking up fishing as leverage but it’s not leverage if you treat it like the Crown Jewels.
FFS, the only reason the Eu haven’t flexed is because the French think they’re going to carry on fishing anyway.
And don’t try and misrepresent me as claiming fishing is more important than FS. I am not and never have despite attempts to interpret it that way.
What I have consistently tried to explain is why it is so important to the negotiation.
Clearly I’ve failed on here but those around the negotiating table understand it so it’s not my problem.
But I think the behaviour of the UK and how it is playing out in the press is not indicative of it being leverage, which is what I am disagreeing with you about.
I remember the "boat wars" during the referendum. You think too highly of this particular government if you think they don't attach the same the sentimental value of fishing over some larger industries I think you've misunderstood what the brexiters are all about.
The way I see Brexit is a couple of fundamental principles that have been held dear by a significant minority. Free trade and sovereignty.
To get the mass buy in, any available lever was used to extol the perceived benefits to the masses of a world outside the Eu.
One of those was patriotism and projection of power. Fleets of small boats are apparently a good emotional lever to do that. Lots of good visuals and can be related to wars and conflicts which ticks more nostalgia boxes.
I don’t in any way believe fishing rights are an end game. I suspect Farage did benefit financially from flying that flag though.
The last 4.5 years have shown perfectly how fake this view is.-1 -
I can see what you're saying but when can we tell them that they re wrong and that it's a stupid idea and it's not going to work?morstar said:Good Stuff
I'm getting a bit fed up of always having to be the adult in the room whilst morons demolish our only house around me...
We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
We are well past fishing being imagery, this is a bunch of zealots making bad decisions through their dislike of foreigners.morstar said:
I think the Brexiteer boat imagery is all just that, imagery.rick_chasey said:
I'm not saying you think it's more important than FS, to be clear.morstar said:
See above. I can’t believe you still think of in terms of absolute size.rick_chasey said:
It’s almost worthless - why hang on to it?TheBigBean said:
I think the UK keeps telling the EU that.rick_chasey said:
Christ just give it all up for a proper concession who cares.TheBigBean said:The fish still getting in the way.
Mortstar was here talking up fishing as leverage but it’s not leverage if you treat it like the Crown Jewels.
FFS, the only reason the Eu haven’t flexed is because the French think they’re going to carry on fishing anyway.
And don’t try and misrepresent me as claiming fishing is more important than FS. I am not and never have despite attempts to interpret it that way.
What I have consistently tried to explain is why it is so important to the negotiation.
Clearly I’ve failed on here but those around the negotiating table understand it so it’s not my problem.
But I think the behaviour of the UK and how it is playing out in the press is not indicative of it being leverage, which is what I am disagreeing with you about.
I remember the "boat wars" during the referendum. You think too highly of this particular government if you think they don't attach the same the sentimental value of fishing over some larger industries I think you've misunderstood what the brexiters are all about.
The way I see Brexit is a couple of fundamental principles that have been held dear by a significant minority. Free trade and sovereignty.
To get the mass buy in, any available lever was used to extol the perceived benefits to the masses of a world outside the Eu.
One of those was patriotism and projection of power. Fleets of small boats are apparently a good emotional lever to do that. Lots of good visuals and can be related to wars and conflicts which ticks more nostalgia boxes.
I don’t in any way believe fishing rights are an end game. I suspect Farage did benefit financially from flying that flag though.
People may not like FS but it would be very easy to explain to them that it pays the bills and most of the jobs aren’t in London. Nobody has tried because they want to be populist and nothing matters until the MMT falls ill.0 -
It's not a deal on offer. The EU has been clear about that.rick_chasey said:
Eugh if Brits knew what was good for them they’d trade fish for FS.TheBigBean said:
I think the UK keeps telling the EU that.rick_chasey said:
Christ just give it all up for a proper concession who cares.TheBigBean said:The fish still getting in the way.
It's the same with the state aid argument. €750bn is not state aid when done by the EU.
Sometimes a request is just unreasonable.
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Yes, the state aid proposal from the EU is a complete joke.TheBigBean said:
It's not a deal on offer. The EU has been clear about that.rick_chasey said:
Eugh if Brits knew what was good for them they’d trade fish for FS.TheBigBean said:
I think the UK keeps telling the EU that.rick_chasey said:
Christ just give it all up for a proper concession who cares.TheBigBean said:The fish still getting in the way.
It's the same with the state aid argument. €750bn is not state aid when done by the EU.
Sometimes a request is just unreasonable.
National state aid is in the proposal but supranational state aid is exempt (ie so CAP is outside of the rules). Longer term, you can see this is part of the EU's master plan to take over control of all spending.0
