BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
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that may be a fair cop but you would have thought they could come up with some 3 word messagingPross said:
I never had you down as someone who over-estimates 'people'! Most people these days seem to have entrenched views they are convinced are right and aren't open to explanation. The politicians have actively sown disdain for experts remember.surrey_commuter said:
We are well past fishing being imagery, this is a bunch of zealots making bad decisions through their dislike of foreigners.morstar said:
I think the Brexiteer boat imagery is all just that, imagery.rick_chasey said:
I'm not saying you think it's more important than FS, to be clear.morstar said:
See above. I can’t believe you still think of in terms of absolute size.rick_chasey said:
It’s almost worthless - why hang on to it?TheBigBean said:
I think the UK keeps telling the EU that.rick_chasey said:
Christ just give it all up for a proper concession who cares.TheBigBean said:The fish still getting in the way.
Mortstar was here talking up fishing as leverage but it’s not leverage if you treat it like the Crown Jewels.
FFS, the only reason the Eu haven’t flexed is because the French think they’re going to carry on fishing anyway.
And don’t try and misrepresent me as claiming fishing is more important than FS. I am not and never have despite attempts to interpret it that way.
What I have consistently tried to explain is why it is so important to the negotiation.
Clearly I’ve failed on here but those around the negotiating table understand it so it’s not my problem.
But I think the behaviour of the UK and how it is playing out in the press is not indicative of it being leverage, which is what I am disagreeing with you about.
I remember the "boat wars" during the referendum. You think too highly of this particular government if you think they don't attach the same the sentimental value of fishing over some larger industries I think you've misunderstood what the brexiters are all about.
The way I see Brexit is a couple of fundamental principles that have been held dear by a significant minority. Free trade and sovereignty.
To get the mass buy in, any available lever was used to extol the perceived benefits to the masses of a world outside the Eu.
One of those was patriotism and projection of power. Fleets of small boats are apparently a good emotional lever to do that. Lots of good visuals and can be related to wars and conflicts which ticks more nostalgia boxes.
I don’t in any way believe fishing rights are an end game. I suspect Farage did benefit financially from flying that flag though.
People may not like FS but it would be very easy to explain to them that it pays the bills and most of the jobs aren’t in London. Nobody has tried because they want to be populist and nothing matters until the MMT falls ill.
I can only borrow from the football terraces
"they pay your benefits"0 -
The fact the vote leave won does not then mean every opinion writer authoring an article explaining anti EU feeling is correct in their analysis.Stevo_666 said:
To you I'm sure it does. I thought it might appeal to some of the higher brow forumites.Jezyboy said:Feels like psudo high brow rightiebollocks to me
Although if the writer didn't have a point, we probably wouldn't be where we are now viz a viz Brexit.
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Um... I guess it illustrates a point of view. One that ignores huge tracts of history but everyone likes a bit of mythology. Feels like someone thumbing through their Reader's Digest Encyclopedia of British History looking for events to back up their starting assumption.Stevo_666 said:Also from a more philiosophical standpoint, this might help a few people understand the current situation:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/12/16/great-britain-never-never-will-european-country/
"“Britain is a European nation,” Remainers still often say when calling for the closest possible relationship with the EU after Brexit. I’m never sure what they think this means. And do our Continental neighbours agree? It is hard, perhaps impossible, really to feel the subconscious characteristics that stem from geography, history and culture. Certainly, we lucky islanders have rarely had existential worries about our “identity” or our borders. But France, Germany, Italy, Poland, Hungary – to mention only the biggest – have experienced border disputes or territorial changes even within living memory. You can fight over these things, or you can try to transcend them. So thought Europeanism’s founding fathers, who included men from borderlands wanting to end a nightmare.
Rightly or wrongly, this can never be an instinctive British preoccupation. We could never have been at the heart of this “Europe”, with its quasi-religious mission to replace old nationalisms with an ersatz Europeanism seen as benign. “We have made Europe, now we have to make Europeans”, wrote one leading EU politician a few years back. We might theoretically understand the mistrust of popular sovereignty that has created the EU as a secretive elite power structure. But most of us can never feel this to be the inevitable price for peace. The 20th century taught us a different lesson: that the democratic nation is the bulwark of European civilisation, not its enemy. We instinctively feel that suppressing democratic choice is the truly dangerous course.
Like it or not, we are on the edge, as our eventual relationship with the EU ought to reflect. “Europe” is there, not here. Even the keenest British federalists talk about it as a different place which they wistfully dream of being part of. Semi-detachment runs through our history. We have had shifting relationships with different parts of the continent, so that it is hard even to say with which we have most affinity. Christianity came from Rome. Later we became a southern colony of pagan Scandinavia. Our language is Germanic. We went through a transformative four-century relationship with France. We had a long economic and security relationship with the Netherlands, for a time having the same ruler. For more than a century, after the Hanoverian succession, we were a power in Germany.
Britain has been both the ally and the enemy of every great Continental state, Catholic and Protestant, monarchy, democracy and dictatorship. Its monarch even has a plausible claim to be a sherif of Islam, a descendent of the Prophet Mohammed. It has never been tempted or forced to ally with the hegemonic Continental power to share in the spoils of dominating Europe. If national identity was important, 20 miles of sea were certainly no less; and trans-oceanic connections provided global resources to oppose Continental threats and work to create a “balance of power”. So Britain was the only major European state that never became an ally or a willing satellite of either Napoleon or Hitler, but decided to resist them even when the struggle seemed hopeless. Finally, it never made a serious attempt to join a triumvirate with France and Germany to control the EU. Independence has been our watchword.
The lure of opportunity overseas pulled us away from Continental ambitions. Though the Glorious Revolution of 1688 began the “second hundred years war” with France, ending only at Waterloo, the struggle became increasingly global, fought not only on the plains of Flanders, but in India and America. After Waterloo, Britain refused to be part of the Holy Alliance, a Great Power scheme to run the Continent, becoming instead the patron and protector of independent states, including France, Belgium, Greece, Spain and Portugal.
Britain made little effort to shape the unification of Italy during the 1850s, and watched with limited concern and negligible influence as the separate German states were turned by Otto von Bismarck into a new and powerful Empire by aggressive wars against Denmark, Austria and France. Even had Britain wished to interfere it could scarcely have done so. It was never a superpower, but always a medium-sized state, sometimes having to punch above its weight but not getting into the ring at all if it could avoid it. Bismarck joked that if the British landed their army in Germany, he would have it arrested, and Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli declared that Britain “was really more an Asiatic power than a European”.
Was this a great geopolitical mistake? Many who later supported European integration thought so. But Brexit proves that it was too late to alter it. The millions who emigrated over the last two centuries in search of a better life did not cross the Channel or the North Sea to become Europeans, but went to English-speaking countries across the oceans. Today, two and a half times as many British citizens live in the “Anglosphere” as in the EU, and Britain’s main ethnic minorities are from Commonwealth countries. Even when we were striving to be “at the heart of Europe”, we were less economically integrated than any other EU member, and for 20 years our trade has been increasingly moving away from the Continent.
Opinion polling shows that our views of the EU are not very different from those of our Continental neighbours – that is, unenthusiastic or worse. The difference is that they feel that they have no choice but to remain members. Economic calculation weighs. But so do the instinctive feelings that stem from geography and history. The detached or semi-detached countries – Norway, Switzerland, ourselves and the non-Eurozone member-states – are all in different ways outsiders.
Our peculiarity – or so General de Gaulle thought when he vetoed our entry into the European Economic Community – was that we were too global: “an island, sea-going, bound up, by its trade, its markets, its food supplies, with the most varied and often the most distant countries”. It has taken us half a century to realise he was right, and finally to go with the grain."1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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do you know what we are offering on fish?tailwindhome said:
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No ones walking away over fish.
It's just getting to numbers everyone can live with.
99% sure there'll be a deal now.
Huge credit will due to the negotiation teams for this, the WA and the Protocol.
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
or they could do the phase in over 10 weeks and the EU can pay off the boats.tailwindhome said:0 -
one supposes there is something stopping our fishymen selling off their new quotasdarkhairedlord said:
or they could do the phase in over 10 weeks and the EU can pay off the boats.tailwindhome said:0 -
Requirement to be UK owned and fish landed in the UK.surrey_commuter said:
one supposes there is something stopping our fishymen selling off their new quotasdarkhairedlord said:
or they could do the phase in over 10 weeks and the EU can pay off the boats.tailwindhome said:0 -
Seem as if some people still don't understand or want to understand. It doesn't really change anything anyway..."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0
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Why do you say that? Paperwork, with the only sort of deal that satisfies the Johnson red lines, that's true. Tariff wise it could make a big difference.Stevo_666 said:Seem as if some people still don't understand or want to understand. It doesn't really change anything anyway...
If it genuinely made no difference, they'd all be off by now.0 -
It's true that the ambition from Johnson is only for a deal that still gums up the processes.0
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The flip side of this is that CDS - the replacement for CHEIF - has been 'coming' for 4 years now (pre-referendum I think). This was to be the new system that handled all Customs Declarations outside the EU.pangolin said:
That would be the second good IT system they've rolled out. Quite impressive.ddraver said:in the midst of all my negativity, I will say that the TSS system is really rather well designed and easy for a bunch of people with wildly different experiences to learn.
How it handles 11 Million cases, starting on Monday, remains to be seen...
CDS will now be used only for NI - although no one has seen it yet (13 days to go) and CHEIF, the antiquated under-maintained system that was supposed to be replaced 4 years ago, will now have to handle an extra 250 million Declarations from January 1st
If CHEIF Falls over, Customs and Trade of any and all sorts....stops...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
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How will people not understanding/wanting to understand the article above make any difference?kingstongraham said:
Why do you say that? Paperwork, with the only sort of deal that satisfies the Johnson red lines, that's true. Tariff wise it could make a big difference.Stevo_666 said:Seem as if some people still don't understand or want to understand. It doesn't really change anything anyway...
If it genuinely made no difference, they'd all be off by now."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I was 100% misunderstanding your post. I thought things had moved on from that. Apologies.Stevo_666 said:
How will people not understanding/wanting to understand the article above make any difference?kingstongraham said:
Why do you say that? Paperwork, with the only sort of deal that satisfies the Johnson red lines, that's true. Tariff wise it could make a big difference.Stevo_666 said:Seem as if some people still don't understand or want to understand. It doesn't really change anything anyway...
If it genuinely made no difference, they'd all be off by now.
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UK owned could be difficult but UK landed is unequivocal.TheBigBean said:
Requirement to be UK owned and fish landed in the UK.surrey_commuter said:
one supposes there is something stopping our fishymen selling off their new quotasdarkhairedlord said:
or they could do the phase in over 10 weeks and the EU can pay off the boats.tailwindhome said:
Like landing slots at Heathrow these things really should not be a valuable asset for the recipient1 -
And how will people understanding the article above make any difference either? It's just an opinion piece in the Gammon-graff.Stevo_666 said:
How will people not understanding/wanting to understand the article above make any difference?kingstongraham said:
Why do you say that? Paperwork, with the only sort of deal that satisfies the Johnson red lines, that's true. Tariff wise it could make a big difference.Stevo_666 said:Seem as if some people still don't understand or want to understand. It doesn't really change anything anyway...
If it genuinely made no difference, they'd all be off by now.
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I dont really care either way. Just thought it might help people on here who still can't fathom why this is happening.darkhairedlord said:
And how will people understanding the article above make any difference either? It's just an opinion piece in the Gammon-graff.Stevo_666 said:
How will people not understanding/wanting to understand the article above make any difference?kingstongraham said:
Why do you say that? Paperwork, with the only sort of deal that satisfies the Johnson red lines, that's true. Tariff wise it could make a big difference.Stevo_666 said:Seem as if some people still don't understand or want to understand. It doesn't really change anything anyway...
If it genuinely made no difference, they'd all be off by now."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
What's to (not) understand?Stevo_666 said:Seem as if some people still don't understand or want to understand. It doesn't really change anything anyway...
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I don't think anyone didn't know that a part of it is because of British exceptionalism, and the thought that we are more inherently British than the French are French, and they want to take it away. Despite the UK changing somewhat over the years.Stevo_666 said:
I dont really care either way. Just thought it might help people on here who still can't fathom why this is happening.darkhairedlord said:
And how will people understanding the article above make any difference either? It's just an opinion piece in the Gammon-graff.Stevo_666 said:
How will people not understanding/wanting to understand the article above make any difference?kingstongraham said:
Why do you say that? Paperwork, with the only sort of deal that satisfies the Johnson red lines, that's true. Tariff wise it could make a big difference.Stevo_666 said:Seem as if some people still don't understand or want to understand. It doesn't really change anything anyway...
If it genuinely made no difference, they'd all be off by now.0 -
Have a read and make your own mind up?rjsterry said:
What's to (not) understand?Stevo_666 said:Seem as if some people still don't understand or want to understand. It doesn't really change anything anyway...
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Indeed, we'll be landing a load of fish that we don't buy in the UK so will have to sell it to the EU anyway.surrey_commuter said:
UK owned could be difficult but UK landed is unequivocal.TheBigBean said:
Requirement to be UK owned and fish landed in the UK.surrey_commuter said:
one supposes there is something stopping our fishymen selling off their new quotasdarkhairedlord said:
or they could do the phase in over 10 weeks and the EU can pay off the boats.tailwindhome said:
Like landing slots at Heathrow these things really should not be a valuable asset for the recipient0 -
Will that mean more jobs for the UK and less for the EU?elbowloh said:
Indeed, we'll be landing a load of fish that we don't buy in the UK so will have to sell it to the EU anyway.surrey_commuter said:
UK owned could be difficult but UK landed is unequivocal.TheBigBean said:
Requirement to be UK owned and fish landed in the UK.surrey_commuter said:
one supposes there is something stopping our fishymen selling off their new quotasdarkhairedlord said:
or they could do the phase in over 10 weeks and the EU can pay off the boats.tailwindhome said:
Like landing slots at Heathrow these things really should not be a valuable asset for the recipient
This is positive for the UK and in coastal areas that are in need of jobs0 -
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Doing some work on our stats this year - guess where we've seen a big uptick in business?
Full time roles on the continent, replacing the fly-in-fly out London roles.0 -
You also need jobs that people are keen to take up... if they were to open a vacancy for a trawler net operator (or whatever it's called), I don't think there'll be hundreds of applications to be honest. Long hours, hard labour, high risk, average pay... all the kinds of jobs British are not too keen on... you might end up with a bunch of applicants from Vietnam who are keener and more qualified...coopster_the_1st said:
Will that mean more jobs for the UK and less for the EU?
This is positive for the UK and in coastal areas that are in need of jobs
If Brexit meant more jobs in the financial sector, in sociology and in the performing arts, then it might end up being a success...
left the forum March 20230 -
EU have only ordered 33.5 million vaccines so far. I'm guessing they are only thinking of vaccinating those who work for the EU. One way to make the EU more popular in Europe...
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ugo.santalucia said:
You also need jobs that people are keen to take up... if they were to open a vacancy for a trawler net operator (or whatever it's called), I don't think there'll be hundreds of applications to be honest. Long hours, hard labour, high risk, average pay... all the kinds of jobs British are not too keen on... you might end up with a bunch of applicants from Vietnam who are keener and more qualified...coopster_the_1st said:
Will that mean more jobs for the UK and less for the EU?
This is positive for the UK and in coastal areas that are in need of jobs
If Brexit meant more jobs in the financial sector, in sociology and in the performing arts, then it might end up being a success...
Also note that deep-sea fisherman is a high risk job from a safety point of view..ugo.santalucia said:
You also need jobs that people are keen to take up... if they were to open a vacancy for a trawler net operator (or whatever it's called), I don't think there'll be hundreds of applications to be honest. Long hours, hard labour, high risk, average pay... all the kinds of jobs British are not too keen on... you might end up with a bunch of applicants from Vietnam who are keener and more qualified...coopster_the_1st said:
Will that mean more jobs for the UK and less for the EU?
This is positive for the UK and in coastal areas that are in need of jobs
If Brexit meant more jobs in the financial sector, in sociology and in the performing arts, then it might end up being a success...
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Having spent a couple of weeks doing Clearing at Uni last summer, I can anticipate in 3 years time there will be a lot of sociologists, historians and graduates in English, as well as arts and drama keen to get those jobs left behind by EU emigrants! A career in fishing is exactly what they aspire to...left the forum March 20231
