BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 11,981
    edited December 2020

    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • elbowloh
    elbowloh Posts: 7,078
    daniel_b said:


    guarantee that's not humble pie.
    Felt F1 2014
    Felt Z6 2012
    Red Arthur Caygill steel frame
    Tall....
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  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,925
    Ursula was still talking up historic fishing rights in the conference this morning. The EU and its members have joined the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, so historic rights aren't really relevant. Much in the same way the UK fishing industry lost out during the Cod Wars.

    Anyway, the small glimmer of hope that she was working to persuade the EU27 has died.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,155
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,698
    One of the problems is that "sOVreiGnTy" has come to mean not 'Free to make our own laws' but 'Not suffer the consequences of our own actions'.

    You can see why Johnson, Cummings etc struggle with it...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,569
    edited December 2020
    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    ........... T.

    ........

    "The "left behind" voted for Brexit because they were told that it would be good for jobs and wage growth."


    I disagree with that statement. They voted for Brexit because they felt that change, any change, could not be worse for them and their futures than the status quo.

  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,577
    Dorset_Boy said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    ........... T.

    ........

    "The "left behind" voted for Brexit because they were told that it would be good for jobs and wage growth."


    I disagree with that statement. They voted for Brexit because they felt that change, any change, could not be worse for them and their futures than the status quo.

    Well we're about to put that to the test.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • pangolin
    pangolin Posts: 6,648
    edited December 2020
    Dorset_Boy said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    ........... T.

    ........

    "The "left behind" voted for Brexit because they were told that it would be good for jobs and wage growth."

    I disagree with that statement. They voted for Brexit because they felt that change, any change, could not be worse for them and their futures than the status quo.

    Any claim that "they" all voted for 1 consistent reason is going to be wrong.

    Almost as wrong as thinking that any change could not be worse than the status quo. As is being demonstrated.
    - Genesis Croix de Fer
    - Dolan Tuono
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,569
    pangolin said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    ........... T.

    ........

    "The "left behind" voted for Brexit because they were told that it would be good for jobs and wage growth."

    I disagree with that statement. They voted for Brexit because they felt that change, any change, could not be worse for them and their futures than the status quo.

    Any claim that "they" all voted for 1 consistent reason is going to be wrong.

    Almost as wrong as thinking that any change could not be worse than the status quo. As is being demonstrated.
    Of course there were multiple reasons behind anyone's decision.
    If you feel you have been left behind economically and financially over the previous 30 years why on earth would it be wrong to think at the time that any change might be no worse than the status quo? If you're at the bottom of the heap already, you'd feel the desire for a change, any change.

    I'd guess that everyone on here has benefitted from what we would see as the progress of the last 30 years, but there are significant swathes of the population that haven't.
    They saw Brexit as a chance to make things different, hence they got out and voted, which they wouldn't have done at a normal election.
    I really think this is a point that many 'remaining metropolitan elite' (for want of a better description) have failed to grasp, even though it was a point set out by a writer in the guardian some weeks after the 2016 result.
  • skyblueamateur
    skyblueamateur Posts: 1,498
    edited December 2020
    Dorset_Boy said:

    pangolin said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    ........... T.

    ........

    "The "left behind" voted for Brexit because they were told that it would be good for jobs and wage growth."

    I disagree with that statement. They voted for Brexit because they felt that change, any change, could not be worse for them and their futures than the status quo.

    Any claim that "they" all voted for 1 consistent reason is going to be wrong.

    Almost as wrong as thinking that any change could not be worse than the status quo. As is being demonstrated.
    Of course there were multiple reasons behind anyone's decision.
    If you feel you have been left behind economically and financially over the previous 30 years why on earth would it be wrong to think at the time that any change might be no worse than the status quo? If you're at the bottom of the heap already, you'd feel the desire for a change, any change.

    I'd guess that everyone on here has benefitted from what we would see as the progress of the last 30 years, but there are significant swathes of the population that haven't.
    They saw Brexit as a chance to make things different, hence they got out and voted, which they wouldn't have done at a normal election.
    I really think this is a point that many 'remaining metropolitan elite' (for want of a better description) have failed to grasp, even though it was a point set out by a writer in the guardian some weeks after the 2016 result.
    This is it in a nutshell and encapsulates the frustrations of all the people I know who voted for Brexit. The fact it was exasperated by most of the tabloid press and that Europe was blamed for everything that was wrong. I strongly disagree with this but the remain campaign failed to address these concerns. It's why Labour has hemorrhaged support in it's traditional heartlands.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,925
    In more fishing news, Norway is getting grumpy about the delay in a trilateral agreement between them, UK and the EU. it has suggested it may also close its waters to EU vessels.

    Apparently, the only reason that EU vessels are allowed is so that Norwegians can fish British waters, but if that is going to end, there isn't much point in allowing the EU to continue.

  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,698
    Dorset_Boy said:

    They saw chance to make things different, hence they got out and voted, which they wouldn't have done at a normal election.
    I really think this is a point that many 'remaining metropolitan elite' (for want of a better description) have failed to grasp, even though it was a point set out by a writer in the guardian some weeks after the 2016 result.

    yep...but...Its going to make things worse!

    Thats where this argument fails

    Its rubbish right now being a lowly cleaner at the Honda* Factory so we re going to make it even more rubbish by closing the factory!!!

    what..?

    (*insert any example here)

    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,334
    I doubt many companies would be producing 2 lines for different markets though.
    They will produce to the higher standard for mass production and price accordingly.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,569
    skyblueamateur said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    pangolin said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    ........... T.

    ........

    "The "left behind" voted for Brexit because they were told that it would be good for jobs and wage growth."

    I disagree with that statement. They voted for Brexit because they felt that change, any change, could not be worse for them and their futures than the status quo.

    Any claim that "they" all voted for 1 consistent reason is going to be wrong.

    Almost as wrong as thinking that any change could not be worse than the status quo. As is being demonstrated.
    Of course there were multiple reasons behind anyone's decision.
    If you feel you have been left behind economically and financially over the previous 30 years why on earth would it be wrong to think at the time that any change might be no worse than the status quo? If you're at the bottom of the heap already, you'd feel the desire for a change, any change.

    I'd guess that everyone on here has benefitted from what we would see as the progress of the last 30 years, but there are significant swathes of the population that haven't.
    They saw Brexit as a chance to make things different, hence they got out and voted, which they wouldn't have done at a normal election.
    I really think this is a point that many 'remaining metropolitan elite' (for want of a better description) have failed to grasp, even though it was a point set out by a writer in the guardian some weeks after the 2016 result.
    This is it in a nutshell and encapsulates the frustrations of all the people I know who voted for Brexit. The fact it was exasperated by most of the tabloid press and that Europe was blamed for everything that was wrong. I strongly disagree with this but the remain campaign failed to address these concerns. It's why Labour has hemorrhaged support in it's traditional heartlands.
    The remain campaign also failed to point out almost any advantages of staying in the EU. It was a hugely negative campaign all round.
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,569
    tailwindhome said:

    So is that the EU slightly reopening the door marked 'Deal'?
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,925
    tailwindhome said:

    That's half a quote. Misses the important bit on the end.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    Bring'em home Ursula


    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,569
    Classic Macron:
    Mr Macron said the EU and UK must learn to live "side by side" harmoniously and suggested he was reluctant to give up his country's "share" of fishing quotas from UK waters.

    Je veux avoir mon gâteau et le manger!
  • skyblueamateur
    skyblueamateur Posts: 1,498
    Dorset_Boy said:

    skyblueamateur said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    pangolin said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    ........... T.

    ........

    "The "left behind" voted for Brexit because they were told that it would be good for jobs and wage growth."

    I disagree with that statement. They voted for Brexit because they felt that change, any change, could not be worse for them and their futures than the status quo.

    Any claim that "they" all voted for 1 consistent reason is going to be wrong.

    Almost as wrong as thinking that any change could not be worse than the status quo. As is being demonstrated.
    Of course there were multiple reasons behind anyone's decision.
    If you feel you have been left behind economically and financially over the previous 30 years why on earth would it be wrong to think at the time that any change might be no worse than the status quo? If you're at the bottom of the heap already, you'd feel the desire for a change, any change.

    I'd guess that everyone on here has benefitted from what we would see as the progress of the last 30 years, but there are significant swathes of the population that haven't.
    They saw Brexit as a chance to make things different, hence they got out and voted, which they wouldn't have done at a normal election.
    I really think this is a point that many 'remaining metropolitan elite' (for want of a better description) have failed to grasp, even though it was a point set out by a writer in the guardian some weeks after the 2016 result.
    This is it in a nutshell and encapsulates the frustrations of all the people I know who voted for Brexit. The fact it was exasperated by most of the tabloid press and that Europe was blamed for everything that was wrong. I strongly disagree with this but the remain campaign failed to address these concerns. It's why Labour has hemorrhaged support in it's traditional heartlands.
    The remain campaign also failed to point out almost any advantages of staying in the EU. It was a hugely negative campaign all round.
    Oh, I fully agree and it's what I'm most angry about to be honest as it was as much the failure of the remain campaign as it was the success of the leave campaign that has got us to this point.

    Unfortunately I fear it is the very people who voted to leave because of this that will be disproportionately damaged by the economic fall out.

    I do hope I'm wrong.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Dorset_Boy said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    ........... T.

    ........

    "The "left behind" voted for Brexit because they were told that it would be good for jobs and wage growth."


    I disagree with that statement. They voted for Brexit because they felt that change, any change, could not be worse for them and their futures than the status quo.

    do you really think that they believed that a reduction in workers rights would benefit them?
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,569
    ddraver said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    They saw chance to make things different, hence they got out and voted, which they wouldn't have done at a normal election.
    I really think this is a point that many 'remaining metropolitan elite' (for want of a better description) have failed to grasp, even though it was a point set out by a writer in the guardian some weeks after the 2016 result.

    yep...but...Its going to make things worse!

    Thats where this argument fails

    Its rubbish right now being a lowly cleaner at the Honda* Factory so we re going to make it even more rubbish by closing the factory!!!

    what..?

    (*insert any example here)

    That may end up being the case, but you are using hindsight / your more priviledged view of things to reach that decision.
    It isn't a failure of the original reason / argument as to why they, often for the first time ever, got out and voted, voting for change to a status quo that hadn't benefitted them.
    You have fallen into the trap I mentioned.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    edited December 2020
    Fairly chill about no deal if I'm honest



    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,334
    edited December 2020
    For reference this post was made in May 2016, before the referendum. The voters knew, if they had any interest. All negatives were dismissed as Project Fear.
    .
    .
    mamba80 said:



    Coopster the 1st wrote:

    We are the 5th biggest economy in the world. The REMAIN camp believe we are unable to continue or improve in the world without being in the EU. Again it is al project Fear and negativity. Personally I have much more confidence in the UK and its people and we will not suffer as described by the FEAR camps


    You cant know that, our 5th largest bit is largely based on financial services and not an inconsiderable amount of extremely rich individuals living in london and our SE property market.

    we r not some sort of manufacturing super power like Germany - what would happen if those banks relocated to Frankfurt ? what would we replace them with? a resurgent car industry? talking of which, how many overseas car makers would stay in the UK ?


    Voting OUT is a leap in the dark, gambling with real peoples lives, mortgages and jobs, that we can become what we were in the 19C, the reality is that we cannot even build a new nuclear PS or a new railway, without foreign aid.

    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • skyblueamateur
    skyblueamateur Posts: 1,498
    surrey_commuter said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    ........... T.

    ........

    "The "left behind" voted for Brexit because they were told that it would be good for jobs and wage growth."


    I disagree with that statement. They voted for Brexit because they felt that change, any change, could not be worse for them and their futures than the status quo.

    do you really think that they believed that a reduction in workers rights would benefit them?
    I don't think they bel
    tailwindhome said:

    Fairly chill about no deal if I'm honest



    Yep, I find it pretty ironic that taking back control and gaining sovereignty requires splitting the UK and putting a border down the Irish Sea. I thought it was the Conservative and Unionist party?
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    tailwindhome said:

    Fairly chill about no deal if I'm honest



    but do you keep your EHIC card?
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,925
    tailwindhome said:

    Fairly chill about no deal if I'm honest



    Irish citizenship is certainly the best European one to have at the moment.

  • skyblueamateur
    skyblueamateur Posts: 1,498
    TheBigBean said:

    tailwindhome said:

    Fairly chill about no deal if I'm honest



    Irish citizenship is certainly the best European one to have at the moment.

    Yep, me and my family are on that bandwagon and have our applications in.
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    TheBigBean said:

    tailwindhome said:

    Fairly chill about no deal if I'm honest



    Irish citizenship is certainly the best European one to have at the moment.

    Which is just one reason why, contrary to all the people who have been giving us the "you must be mad" stuff, this could be a good time to move to NI :)
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,334
    tailwindhome said:

    Fairly chill about no deal if I'm honest

    Let's see if I have this right? You get EIHC and a blue passport?
    Winner, winner...
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.

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