BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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Comments

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    edited December 2020
    skyblueamateur said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    pangolin said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    ........... T.

    ........

    "The "left behind" voted for Brexit because they were told that it would be good for jobs and wage growth."

    I disagree with that statement. They voted for Brexit because they felt that change, any change, could not be worse for them and their futures than the status quo.

    Any claim that "they" all voted for 1 consistent reason is going to be wrong.

    Almost as wrong as thinking that any change could not be worse than the status quo. As is being demonstrated.
    Of course there were multiple reasons behind anyone's decision.
    If you feel you have been left behind economically and financially over the previous 30 years why on earth would it be wrong to think at the time that any change might be no worse than the status quo? If you're at the bottom of the heap already, you'd feel the desire for a change, any change.

    I'd guess that everyone on here has benefitted from what we would see as the progress of the last 30 years, but there are significant swathes of the population that haven't.
    They saw Brexit as a chance to make things different, hence they got out and voted, which they wouldn't have done at a normal election.
    I really think this is a point that many 'remaining metropolitan elite' (for want of a better description) have failed to grasp, even though it was a point set out by a writer in the guardian some weeks after the 2016 result.
    This is it in a nutshell and encapsulates the frustrations of all the people I know who voted for Brexit. The fact it was exasperated by most of the tabloid press and that Europe was blamed for everything that was wrong. I strongly disagree with this but the remain campaign failed to address these concerns. It's why Labour has hemorrhaged support in it's traditional heartlands.
    Slightly resent this idea that people don't know this. It was basically all anyone wrote about for 2017.

    I spend about a month a year in Doncaster and have many friends there. I know what it's like.

    The idea that leaving the European union was the solution is laughable. You can't think most people up north are that thick to think that.

    Brexit was as much a vote from the well off shires who don't like foreigners and were worried about things like turkey joining and refugees. as it was flat capped Yorkshire folk. The kind of people who only read WW2 books and instinctively believe in British exceptionalism.
    _
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Dorset_Boy said:

    ddraver said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    They saw chance to make things different, hence they got out and voted, which they wouldn't have done at a normal election.
    I really think this is a point that many 'remaining metropolitan elite' (for want of a better description) have failed to grasp, even though it was a point set out by a writer in the guardian some weeks after the 2016 result.

    yep...but...Its going to make things worse!

    Thats where this argument fails

    Its rubbish right now being a lowly cleaner at the Honda* Factory so we re going to make it even more rubbish by closing the factory!!!

    what..?

    (*insert any example here)

    That may end up being the case, but you are using hindsight / your more priviledged view of things to reach that decision.
    It isn't a failure of the original reason / argument as to why they, often for the first time ever, got out and voted, voting for change to a status quo that hadn't benefitted them.
    You have fallen into the trap I mentioned.
    it is not hindsight it was very clearly pointed out to them the downsides of Brexit.

    everybody is agreed that the economy will be smaller than it otherwise would which means Govt revenue will be smaller which means that anybody dependent upon the State for jobs and benefits will be worse off.

    john80 gets this - they traded economic well being for sovereignty
  • skyblueamateur
    skyblueamateur Posts: 1,498
    rick_chasey said:

    skyblueamateur said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    pangolin said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    ........... T.

    ........

    "The "left behind" voted for Brexit because they were told that it would be good for jobs and wage growth."

    I disagree with that statement. They voted for Brexit because they felt that change, any change, could not be worse for them and their futures than the status quo.

    Any claim that "they" all voted for 1 consistent reason is going to be wrong.

    Almost as wrong as thinking that any change could not be worse than the status quo. As is being demonstrated.
    Of course there were multiple reasons behind anyone's decision.
    If you feel you have been left behind economically and financially over the previous 30 years why on earth would it be wrong to think at the time that any change might be no worse than the status quo? If you're at the bottom of the heap already, you'd feel the desire for a change, any change.

    I'd guess that everyone on here has benefitted from what we would see as the progress of the last 30 years, but there are significant swathes of the population that haven't.
    They saw Brexit as a chance to make things different, hence they got out and voted, which they wouldn't have done at a normal election.
    I really think this is a point that many 'remaining metropolitan elite' (for want of a better description) have failed to grasp, even though it was a point set out by a writer in the guardian some weeks after the 2016 result.
    This is it in a nutshell and encapsulates the frustrations of all the people I know who voted for Brexit. The fact it was exasperated by most of the tabloid press and that Europe was blamed for everything that was wrong. I strongly disagree with this but the remain campaign failed to address these concerns. It's why Labour has hemorrhaged support in it's traditional heartlands.
    Slightly resent this idea that people don't know this. It was basically all anyone wrote about for 2017.

    I spend about a month a year in Doncaster and have many friends there. I know what it's like.

    The idea that leaving the European union was the solution is laughable. You can't think most people up north are that thick to think that.

    Brexit was as much a vote from the well off shires who don't like foreigners and were worried about things like turkey joining and refugees. as it was flat capped Yorkshire folk. The kind of people who only read WW2 books and instinctively believe in British exceptionalism.
    Why are you putting words in my mouth? Dorset Boy was talking specifically about the protest vote of certain people. I agreed.

    Brexiteers seem to be a very broad church of mixed ideologies from the very well off to the poorest in society which is why a deal was never going to be reached that would satisfy all of them.

    I was talking anecdotally about my experience from friends and colleagues.
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    rick_chasey said:

    skyblueamateur said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    pangolin said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    ........... T.

    ........

    "The "left behind" voted for Brexit because they were told that it would be good for jobs and wage growth."

    I disagree with that statement. They voted for Brexit because they felt that change, any change, could not be worse for them and their futures than the status quo.

    Any claim that "they" all voted for 1 consistent reason is going to be wrong.

    Almost as wrong as thinking that any change could not be worse than the status quo. As is being demonstrated.
    Of course there were multiple reasons behind anyone's decision.
    If you feel you have been left behind economically and financially over the previous 30 years why on earth would it be wrong to think at the time that any change might be no worse than the status quo? If you're at the bottom of the heap already, you'd feel the desire for a change, any change.

    I'd guess that everyone on here has benefitted from what we would see as the progress of the last 30 years, but there are significant swathes of the population that haven't.
    They saw Brexit as a chance to make things different, hence they got out and voted, which they wouldn't have done at a normal election.
    I really think this is a point that many 'remaining metropolitan elite' (for want of a better description) have failed to grasp, even though it was a point set out by a writer in the guardian some weeks after the 2016 result.
    This is it in a nutshell and encapsulates the frustrations of all the people I know who voted for Brexit. The fact it was exasperated by most of the tabloid press and that Europe was blamed for everything that was wrong. I strongly disagree with this but the remain campaign failed to address these concerns. It's why Labour has hemorrhaged support in it's traditional heartlands.
    Slightly resent this idea that people don't know this. It was basically all anyone wrote about for 2017.

    I spend about a month a year in Doncaster and have many friends there. I know what it's like.

    The idea that leaving the European union was the solution is laughable. You can't think most people up north are that thick to think that.

    Brexit was as much a vote from the well off shires who don't like foreigners and were worried about things like turkey joining and refugees. as it was flat capped Yorkshire folk. The kind of people who only read WW2 books and instinctively believe in British exceptionalism.
    That is definitely the group that selected BJ as leader and is definitely a real demographic.
    But, you’re blinkered by your own obsession with this group. The numbers aren’t there to deliver Brexit. The numbers come from the urban areas where most people live and work.


  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    morstar said:

    rick_chasey said:

    skyblueamateur said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    pangolin said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    ........... T.

    ........

    "The "left behind" voted for Brexit because they were told that it would be good for jobs and wage growth."

    I disagree with that statement. They voted for Brexit because they felt that change, any change, could not be worse for them and their futures than the status quo.

    Any claim that "they" all voted for 1 consistent reason is going to be wrong.

    Almost as wrong as thinking that any change could not be worse than the status quo. As is being demonstrated.
    Of course there were multiple reasons behind anyone's decision.
    If you feel you have been left behind economically and financially over the previous 30 years why on earth would it be wrong to think at the time that any change might be no worse than the status quo? If you're at the bottom of the heap already, you'd feel the desire for a change, any change.

    I'd guess that everyone on here has benefitted from what we would see as the progress of the last 30 years, but there are significant swathes of the population that haven't.
    They saw Brexit as a chance to make things different, hence they got out and voted, which they wouldn't have done at a normal election.
    I really think this is a point that many 'remaining metropolitan elite' (for want of a better description) have failed to grasp, even though it was a point set out by a writer in the guardian some weeks after the 2016 result.
    This is it in a nutshell and encapsulates the frustrations of all the people I know who voted for Brexit. The fact it was exasperated by most of the tabloid press and that Europe was blamed for everything that was wrong. I strongly disagree with this but the remain campaign failed to address these concerns. It's why Labour has hemorrhaged support in it's traditional heartlands.
    Slightly resent this idea that people don't know this. It was basically all anyone wrote about for 2017.

    I spend about a month a year in Doncaster and have many friends there. I know what it's like.

    The idea that leaving the European union was the solution is laughable. You can't think most people up north are that thick to think that.

    Brexit was as much a vote from the well off shires who don't like foreigners and were worried about things like turkey joining and refugees. as it was flat capped Yorkshire folk. The kind of people who only read WW2 books and instinctively believe in British exceptionalism.
    That is definitely the group that selected BJ as leader and is definitely a real demographic.
    But, you’re blinkered by your own obsession with this group. The numbers aren’t there to deliver Brexit. The numbers come from the urban areas where most people live and work.


    Sure but 52% of the electorate are not hard up living in sh!tholes.
    _
  • skyblueamateur
    skyblueamateur Posts: 1,498
    rick_chasey said:

    skyblueamateur said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    pangolin said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    ........... T.

    ........

    "The "left behind" voted for Brexit because they were told that it would be good for jobs and wage growth."

    I disagree with that statement. They voted for Brexit because they felt that change, any change, could not be worse for them and their futures than the status quo.

    Any claim that "they" all voted for 1 consistent reason is going to be wrong.

    Almost as wrong as thinking that any change could not be worse than the status quo. As is being demonstrated.
    Of course there were multiple reasons behind anyone's decision.
    If you feel you have been left behind economically and financially over the previous 30 years why on earth would it be wrong to think at the time that any change might be no worse than the status quo? If you're at the bottom of the heap already, you'd feel the desire for a change, any change.

    I'd guess that everyone on here has benefitted from what we would see as the progress of the last 30 years, but there are significant swathes of the population that haven't.
    They saw Brexit as a chance to make things different, hence they got out and voted, which they wouldn't have done at a normal election.
    I really think this is a point that many 'remaining metropolitan elite' (for want of a better description) have failed to grasp, even though it was a point set out by a writer in the guardian some weeks after the 2016 result.
    This is it in a nutshell and encapsulates the frustrations of all the people I know who voted for Brexit. The fact it was exasperated by most of the tabloid press and that Europe was blamed for everything that was wrong. I strongly disagree with this but the remain campaign failed to address these concerns. It's why Labour has hemorrhaged support in it's traditional heartlands.
    Slightly resent this idea that people don't know this. It was basically all anyone wrote about for 2017.

    I spend about a month a year in Doncaster and have many friends there. I know what it's like.

    The idea that leaving the European union was the solution is laughable. You can't think most people up north are that thick to think that.

    Brexit was as much a vote from the well off shires who don't like foreigners and were worried about things like turkey joining and refugees. as it was flat capped Yorkshire folk. The kind of people who only read WW2 books and instinctively believe in British exceptionalism.
    I can only talk of my anecdotal experience of mates views.

    I'm not denying that the shires voted for Brexit as well. It was a broadchurch of demographics.
    I was merely relaying my own experiences and agreeing with Dorset Boys assessment.
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,569
    rick_chasey said:

    morstar said:

    rick_chasey said:

    skyblueamateur said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    pangolin said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    ........... T.

    ........

    "The "left behind" voted for Brexit because they were told that it would be good for jobs and wage growth."

    I disagree with that statement. They voted for Brexit because they felt that change, any change, could not be worse for them and their futures than the status quo.

    Any claim that "they" all voted for 1 consistent reason is going to be wrong.

    Almost as wrong as thinking that any change could not be worse than the status quo. As is being demonstrated.
    Of course there were multiple reasons behind anyone's decision.
    If you feel you have been left behind economically and financially over the previous 30 years why on earth would it be wrong to think at the time that any change might be no worse than the status quo? If you're at the bottom of the heap already, you'd feel the desire for a change, any change.

    I'd guess that everyone on here has benefitted from what we would see as the progress of the last 30 years, but there are significant swathes of the population that haven't.
    They saw Brexit as a chance to make things different, hence they got out and voted, which they wouldn't have done at a normal election.
    I really think this is a point that many 'remaining metropolitan elite' (for want of a better description) have failed to grasp, even though it was a point set out by a writer in the guardian some weeks after the 2016 result.
    This is it in a nutshell and encapsulates the frustrations of all the people I know who voted for Brexit. The fact it was exasperated by most of the tabloid press and that Europe was blamed for everything that was wrong. I strongly disagree with this but the remain campaign failed to address these concerns. It's why Labour has hemorrhaged support in it's traditional heartlands.
    Slightly resent this idea that people don't know this. It was basically all anyone wrote about for 2017.

    I spend about a month a year in Doncaster and have many friends there. I know what it's like.

    The idea that leaving the European union was the solution is laughable. You can't think most people up north are that thick to think that.

    Brexit was as much a vote from the well off shires who don't like foreigners and were worried about things like turkey joining and refugees. as it was flat capped Yorkshire folk. The kind of people who only read WW2 books and instinctively believe in British exceptionalism.
    That is definitely the group that selected BJ as leader and is definitely a real demographic.
    But, you’re blinkered by your own obsession with this group. The numbers aren’t there to deliver Brexit. The numbers come from the urban areas where most people live and work.


    Sure but 52% of the electorate are not hard up living in sh!tholes.
    That is true, but many people who are at the bottom of the pile economically / financially / socially got out and voted for the first time in their lives. They are the ones that made the difference. The turnout from those living in council owned /social housing was a record high.

    Rick, I'm also pretty sure you and others on here have labelled / heavily implied that those who voted for brexit are thick as shit.

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Dorset_Boy said:

    rick_chasey said:

    morstar said:

    rick_chasey said:

    skyblueamateur said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    pangolin said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    ........... T.

    ........

    "The "left behind" voted for Brexit because they were told that it would be good for jobs and wage growth."

    I disagree with that statement. They voted for Brexit because they felt that change, any change, could not be worse for them and their futures than the status quo.

    Any claim that "they" all voted for 1 consistent reason is going to be wrong.

    Almost as wrong as thinking that any change could not be worse than the status quo. As is being demonstrated.
    Of course there were multiple reasons behind anyone's decision.
    If you feel you have been left behind economically and financially over the previous 30 years why on earth would it be wrong to think at the time that any change might be no worse than the status quo? If you're at the bottom of the heap already, you'd feel the desire for a change, any change.

    I'd guess that everyone on here has benefitted from what we would see as the progress of the last 30 years, but there are significant swathes of the population that haven't.
    They saw Brexit as a chance to make things different, hence they got out and voted, which they wouldn't have done at a normal election.
    I really think this is a point that many 'remaining metropolitan elite' (for want of a better description) have failed to grasp, even though it was a point set out by a writer in the guardian some weeks after the 2016 result.
    This is it in a nutshell and encapsulates the frustrations of all the people I know who voted for Brexit. The fact it was exasperated by most of the tabloid press and that Europe was blamed for everything that was wrong. I strongly disagree with this but the remain campaign failed to address these concerns. It's why Labour has hemorrhaged support in it's traditional heartlands.
    Slightly resent this idea that people don't know this. It was basically all anyone wrote about for 2017.

    I spend about a month a year in Doncaster and have many friends there. I know what it's like.

    The idea that leaving the European union was the solution is laughable. You can't think most people up north are that thick to think that.

    Brexit was as much a vote from the well off shires who don't like foreigners and were worried about things like turkey joining and refugees. as it was flat capped Yorkshire folk. The kind of people who only read WW2 books and instinctively believe in British exceptionalism.
    That is definitely the group that selected BJ as leader and is definitely a real demographic.
    But, you’re blinkered by your own obsession with this group. The numbers aren’t there to deliver Brexit. The numbers come from the urban areas where most people live and work.


    Sure but 52% of the electorate are not hard up living in sh!tholes.
    That is true, but many people who are at the bottom of the pile economically / financially / socially got out and voted for the first time in their lives. They are the ones that made the difference. The turnout from those living in council owned /social housing was a record high.

    Rick, I'm also pretty sure you and others on here have labelled / heavily implied that those who voted for brexit are thick as censored .

    You're obviously not bright if you believe it will make you better off yes, i think that is a given.


    It is absolutely mad to think that voting about leaving European Union is going to make a difference to the problems of Tory policies for the last 30 years.

    It just is. It's a remarkable feat of blaming the foreigner. Remarkable.

    I assume you voted Brexit? I suspect soon people will not be so happy to admit they did...
    _
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    rick_chasey said:

    morstar said:

    rick_chasey said:

    skyblueamateur said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    pangolin said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    ........... T.

    ........

    "The "left behind" voted for Brexit because they were told that it would be good for jobs and wage growth."

    I disagree with that statement. They voted for Brexit because they felt that change, any change, could not be worse for them and their futures than the status quo.

    Any claim that "they" all voted for 1 consistent reason is going to be wrong.

    Almost as wrong as thinking that any change could not be worse than the status quo. As is being demonstrated.
    Of course there were multiple reasons behind anyone's decision.
    If you feel you have been left behind economically and financially over the previous 30 years why on earth would it be wrong to think at the time that any change might be no worse than the status quo? If you're at the bottom of the heap already, you'd feel the desire for a change, any change.

    I'd guess that everyone on here has benefitted from what we would see as the progress of the last 30 years, but there are significant swathes of the population that haven't.
    They saw Brexit as a chance to make things different, hence they got out and voted, which they wouldn't have done at a normal election.
    I really think this is a point that many 'remaining metropolitan elite' (for want of a better description) have failed to grasp, even though it was a point set out by a writer in the guardian some weeks after the 2016 result.
    This is it in a nutshell and encapsulates the frustrations of all the people I know who voted for Brexit. The fact it was exasperated by most of the tabloid press and that Europe was blamed for everything that was wrong. I strongly disagree with this but the remain campaign failed to address these concerns. It's why Labour has hemorrhaged support in it's traditional heartlands.
    Slightly resent this idea that people don't know this. It was basically all anyone wrote about for 2017.

    I spend about a month a year in Doncaster and have many friends there. I know what it's like.

    The idea that leaving the European union was the solution is laughable. You can't think most people up north are that thick to think that.

    Brexit was as much a vote from the well off shires who don't like foreigners and were worried about things like turkey joining and refugees. as it was flat capped Yorkshire folk. The kind of people who only read WW2 books and instinctively believe in British exceptionalism.
    That is definitely the group that selected BJ as leader and is definitely a real demographic.
    But, you’re blinkered by your own obsession with this group. The numbers aren’t there to deliver Brexit. The numbers come from the urban areas where most people live and work.


    Sure but 52% of the electorate are not hard up living in sh!tholes.
    That only equates to about a quarter of the population and it is entirely possible that % of the population live in sh1tholes
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    It always surprised me when Hammond announced money to ease our passage out of the EU with the words “people did not vote to make themselves worse off”

    It was so unnecessary I can only think he said it as dare.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,155
    https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/03/a-reminder-of-how-britain-voted-in-the-eu-referendum-and-why/
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,569
    rick_chasey said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    rick_chasey said:

    morstar said:

    rick_chasey said:

    skyblueamateur said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    pangolin said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    ........... T.

    ........

    "The "left behind" voted for Brexit because they were told that it would be good for jobs and wage growth."

    I disagree with that statement. They voted for Brexit because they felt that change, any change, could not be worse for them and their futures than the status quo.

    Any claim that "they" all voted for 1 consistent reason is going to be wrong.

    Almost as wrong as thinking that any change could not be worse than the status quo. As is being demonstrated.
    Of course there were multiple reasons behind anyone's decision.
    If you feel you have been left behind economically and financially over the previous 30 years why on earth would it be wrong to think at the time that any change might be no worse than the status quo? If you're at the bottom of the heap already, you'd feel the desire for a change, any change.

    I'd guess that everyone on here has benefitted from what we would see as the progress of the last 30 years, but there are significant swathes of the population that haven't.
    They saw Brexit as a chance to make things different, hence they got out and voted, which they wouldn't have done at a normal election.
    I really think this is a point that many 'remaining metropolitan elite' (for want of a better description) have failed to grasp, even though it was a point set out by a writer in the guardian some weeks after the 2016 result.
    This is it in a nutshell and encapsulates the frustrations of all the people I know who voted for Brexit. The fact it was exasperated by most of the tabloid press and that Europe was blamed for everything that was wrong. I strongly disagree with this but the remain campaign failed to address these concerns. It's why Labour has hemorrhaged support in it's traditional heartlands.
    Slightly resent this idea that people don't know this. It was basically all anyone wrote about for 2017.

    I spend about a month a year in Doncaster and have many friends there. I know what it's like.

    The idea that leaving the European union was the solution is laughable. You can't think most people up north are that thick to think that.

    Brexit was as much a vote from the well off shires who don't like foreigners and were worried about things like turkey joining and refugees. as it was flat capped Yorkshire folk. The kind of people who only read WW2 books and instinctively believe in British exceptionalism.
    That is definitely the group that selected BJ as leader and is definitely a real demographic.
    But, you’re blinkered by your own obsession with this group. The numbers aren’t there to deliver Brexit. The numbers come from the urban areas where most people live and work.


    Sure but 52% of the electorate are not hard up living in sh!tholes.
    That is true, but many people who are at the bottom of the pile economically / financially / socially got out and voted for the first time in their lives. They are the ones that made the difference. The turnout from those living in council owned /social housing was a record high.

    Rick, I'm also pretty sure you and others on here have labelled / heavily implied that those who voted for brexit are thick as censored .

    You're obviously not bright if you believe it will make you better off yes, i think that is a given.


    It is absolutely mad to think that voting about leaving European Union is going to make a difference to the problems of Tory policies for the last 30 years.

    It just is. It's a remarkable feat of blaming the foreigner. Remarkable.

    I assume you voted Brexit? I suspect soon people will not be so happy to admit they did...
    Like quite a few things, you assume wrong.
    However, rather than bitching and moaning as others have done for the last 4.5 years, I recognised the situation we found ourselves in and accepted that in a democracy you accept the will of the people (even if you aren't keen on the decision made), and then seek to make the best of that situation.
    I could and can see the huge failings of the EU, and their eurocrats who are only concerned about the grand project, not what the people want or their prosperity if that means the project stalls.
    I also see the benefits of being part of the world's largest trading block.
    Finally, unlike some others, I am not arrogant enough to assume that my view is superior to others whose circumstances and lives have led them along different paths.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    edited December 2020
    lol, you know you can bitch and moan and make the most of it as well?

    Hopefully it won't come as a surprise that I've done OK out of various shifts away from London for certain FS activities - people use recruiters for that stuff.

    I've also been quite clear about 'accepting the result'. I don't really know how I can make it any clearer.

    You may think I'm arrogant, but I doubt you rate my opinion as equal to yours either ;-).

    Am disappointed you can't see the prosperity that the EU project has brought so many. You can't really see the benefits of being part of the biggest trading block and at the same time complain they don't consider people's prosperity.

    Of course it's not perfect and we all have different perspectives, but pick up a history book and find me another period of civilisation of sustained peace in Europe and I'll buy you the drinks all night.

    That the UK has massive inequality and loads of people under the breadline is nothing to do with the EU. Honest.
    _
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    TheBigBean said:

    In more fishing news, Norway is getting grumpy about the delay in a trilateral agreement between them, UK and the EU. it has suggested it may also close its waters to EU vessels.

    Apparently, the only reason that EU vessels are allowed is so that Norwegians can fish British waters, but if that is going to end, there isn't much point in allowing the EU to continue.

    If Norway do that I wonder how long it will take the EU to ban air travel on Norwegian planes or any of the other things that Britain are losing if it pissed off some Fishermen. There might already be a topic on a Norwegian cycling forum battling the fight to prevent this disaster from unfolding. :)
  • yorkshireraw
    yorkshireraw Posts: 1,632
    surrey_commuter said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    ddraver said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    They saw chance to make things different, hence they got out and voted, which they wouldn't have done at a normal election.
    I really think this is a point that many 'remaining metropolitan elite' (for want of a better description) have failed to grasp, even though it was a point set out by a writer in the guardian some weeks after the 2016 result.

    yep...but...Its going to make things worse!

    Thats where this argument fails

    Its rubbish right now being a lowly cleaner at the Honda* Factory so we re going to make it even more rubbish by closing the factory!!!

    what..?

    (*insert any example here)

    That may end up being the case, but you are using hindsight / your more priviledged view of things to reach that decision.
    It isn't a failure of the original reason / argument as to why they, often for the first time ever, got out and voted, voting for change to a status quo that hadn't benefitted them.
    You have fallen into the trap I mentioned.
    it is not hindsight it was very clearly pointed out to them the downsides of Brexit.

    everybody is agreed that the economy will be smaller than it otherwise would which means Govt revenue will be smaller which means that anybody dependent upon the State for jobs and benefits will be worse off.

    john80 gets this - they traded economic well being for sovereignty
    You can't buy your weekly shop with Sovereignty.

    I would imagine those who voted out and agree the economy will be hit, just think it won't hit them.
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    pblakeney said:

    For reference this post was made in May 2016, before the referendum. The voters knew, if they had any interest. All negatives were dismissed as Project Fear.
    .
    .

    mamba80 said:



    Coopster the 1st wrote:

    We are the 5th biggest economy in the world. The REMAIN camp believe we are unable to continue or improve in the world without being in the EU. Again it is al project Fear and negativity. Personally I have much more confidence in the UK and its people and we will not suffer as described by the FEAR camps


    You cant know that, our 5th largest bit is largely based on financial services and not an inconsiderable amount of extremely rich individuals living in london and our SE property market.

    we r not some sort of manufacturing super power like Germany - what would happen if those banks relocated to Frankfurt ? what would we replace them with? a resurgent car industry? talking of which, how many overseas car makers would stay in the UK ?


    Voting OUT is a leap in the dark, gambling with real peoples lives, mortgages and jobs, that we can become what we were in the 19C, the reality is that we cannot even build a new nuclear PS or a new railway, without foreign aid.


    Given we can borrow billions to pay for Bob to sit on Furlough I am pretty sure that we could fund any and all infrastructure within the UK should we wish to do so. The fact we have not done this since the 70s is one of the key reasons why we are in this mess. Holding doors open for each other is not a balanced economy.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,155
    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    In more fishing news, Norway is getting grumpy about the delay in a trilateral agreement between them, UK and the EU. it has suggested it may also close its waters to EU vessels.

    Apparently, the only reason that EU vessels are allowed is so that Norwegians can fish British waters, but if that is going to end, there isn't much point in allowing the EU to continue.

    If Norway do that I wonder how long it will take the EU to ban air travel on Norwegian planes or any of the other things that Britain are losing if it pissed off some Fishermen. There might already be a topic on a Norwegian cycling forum battling the fight to prevent this disaster from unfolding. :)
    Fisheries aren't part of the EEA which is why it can be separated.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,698
    edited December 2020
    TheBigBean said:

    In more fishing news, Norway is getting grumpy about the delay in a trilateral agreement between them, UK and the EU. it has suggested it may also close its waters to EU vessels.

    Apparently, the only reason that EU vessels are allowed is so that Norwegians can fish British waters, but if that is going to end, there isn't much point in allowing the EU to continue.

    And in UK 'improving' Environmental Regulations after Brexit News...




    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    In more fishing news, Norway is getting grumpy about the delay in a trilateral agreement between them, UK and the EU. it has suggested it may also close its waters to EU vessels.

    Apparently, the only reason that EU vessels are allowed is so that Norwegians can fish British waters, but if that is going to end, there isn't much point in allowing the EU to continue.

    If Norway do that I wonder how long it will take the EU to ban air travel on Norwegian planes or any of the other things that Britain are losing if it pissed off some Fishermen. There might already be a topic on a Norwegian cycling forum battling the fight to prevent this disaster from unfolding. :)
    we are losing those things because we chose to leave the EU. not that long ago the flight market was liberalised, before that there was restriction on routes and prices were very high. This is one of the things that you put at risk when you voted to Leave as you dismissed it as Project Fear. FWIW I still think this is highly unlikely to happen but UK carriers could have some irritating restrictions placed upon them.

    I believe Norway negotiates fishing rights annually - it will be interesting to see what leverage the EU has when it next comes up
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,334
    john80 said:

    pblakeney said:

    For reference this post was made in May 2016, before the referendum. The voters knew, if they had any interest. All negatives were dismissed as Project Fear.
    .
    .

    mamba80 said:



    Coopster the 1st wrote:

    We are the 5th biggest economy in the world. The REMAIN camp believe we are unable to continue or improve in the world without being in the EU. Again it is al project Fear and negativity. Personally I have much more confidence in the UK and its people and we will not suffer as described by the FEAR camps


    You cant know that, our 5th largest bit is largely based on financial services and not an inconsiderable amount of extremely rich individuals living in london and our SE property market.

    we r not some sort of manufacturing super power like Germany - what would happen if those banks relocated to Frankfurt ? what would we replace them with? a resurgent car industry? talking of which, how many overseas car makers would stay in the UK ?


    Voting OUT is a leap in the dark, gambling with real peoples lives, mortgages and jobs, that we can become what we were in the 19C, the reality is that we cannot even build a new nuclear PS or a new railway, without foreign aid.
    Given we can borrow billions to pay for Bob to sit on Furlough I am pretty sure that we could fund any and all infrastructure within the UK should we wish to do so. The fact we have not done this since the 70s is one of the key reasons why we are in this mess. Holding doors open for each other is not a balanced economy.

    Yeahbut, that wasn't the point of reposting the post. That point was against the "nobody knew jobs would be hit" thing.
    If you wish to go off on a tangent then future infrastructure budgets will have been hit hard by C19 costs.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    edited December 2020
    I see various backbenchers are having a tantrum because some EU member state leaders, namely Merkel and Macron won't speak to BoJo about Brexit. "Trade talks go via the commission".

    Almost like they're exercising their right not to haha.

    Lads, you can't start to divide and conquer now. They didn't want to do it 3 years ago they're not going to do it now.
    _
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    TheBigBean said:

    In more fishing news, Norway is getting grumpy about the delay in a trilateral agreement between them, UK and the EU. it has suggested it may also close its waters to EU vessels.

    Apparently, the only reason that EU vessels are allowed is so that Norwegians can fish British waters, but if that is going to end, there isn't much point in allowing the EU to continue.

    Seems they're blocking UK boats too

    The Norway Model
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,698
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Yes why would it change? There's nothing to discuss - it hasn't changed.

    _
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,925
    tailwindhome said:

    TheBigBean said:

    In more fishing news, Norway is getting grumpy about the delay in a trilateral agreement between them, UK and the EU. it has suggested it may also close its waters to EU vessels.

    Apparently, the only reason that EU vessels are allowed is so that Norwegians can fish British waters, but if that is going to end, there isn't much point in allowing the EU to continue.

    Seems they're blocking UK boats too

    The Norway Model
    Yes until the bilateral agreement between the UK and Norway comes into force. That is waiting for the trilateral one, but at some point presumably they might give up on that.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,698
    there is more in the thread...

    from peeps who know shizzle
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    rick_chasey said:

    Yes why would it change? There's nothing to discuss - it hasn't changed.

    the ten mins supports my view that everybody gave up on Thursday and are now just trying to keep the lights on, food on the shelves and planes in the sky.

    Boris offering to go to Paris/Berlin is just playing to the Uk thicko audience that he left no stone unturned
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,925
    ddraver said:

    Where do you find all these disingenuous posters?
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,925
    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Yes why would it change? There's nothing to discuss - it hasn't changed.

    the ten mins supports my view that everybody gave up on Thursday and are now just trying to keep the lights on, food on the shelves and planes in the sky.

    Boris offering to go to Paris/Berlin is just playing to the Uk thicko audience that he left no stone unturned
    I agree with this. Both sides are starting the blame game e.g. see ddraver's tweet that it is all just Brits too stupid to understand the innocent proposal.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    90%

    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!

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