BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,580
    Slightly more positively, it appears we can agree to meet common standards when we need to.

    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    edited December 2020
    rjsterry said:

    While we're posting links to UnHerd articles, this is an interesting read.

    https://unherd.com/2020/12/brexit-was-it-worth-it/

    Still doing it to own the libs innit

    The antagonism was towards other British people, a certain sort of London politico type who reads one of the quartet of the Guardian, Economist, FT or Times, who sees themselves as being on the right side of history yet was wrong about the euro, probably wrong about Iraq, identifies with radicalism but is passionately snobbish towards the provincial and non-academic, and has naked class interests at heart. The sort of person who loves Europe but is in reality far more interested in American politics, and almost certainly went to Oxbridge and likes to tweet about “the lack of diversity at my alma mater”.


    Said writer lives in London FYI
    _
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,431
    kingstongraham said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Does the EU have a free trade agreement with any other neighbouring country that doesn't take their rules to a large extent?

    Edit - or that isn't on the path to membership

    Maybe better to ask which EU trade deals required its trade partners to cede material elements of sovereignty.
    The AA/DCFTA aims to boost trade in goods and services between the EU and Ukraine by gradually cutting tariffs and bringing Ukraine's rules in line with the EU's in certain industrial sectors and agricultural products.

    To better integrate with the EU market, Ukraine is harmonising many of its norms and standards in industrial and agricultural products. Ukraine is also aligning its legislation to the EU's in trade-related areas such as:

    Competition
    Technical barriers to trade (TBT)
    Sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS)
    Customs and trade facilitation
    Protection of intellectual property rights
    That is alignment of standards/regs, not ceding of sovereignty.

    And 1 country.
    Interesting.
    And correct. Sounds like youve shown that trade deals don't usually involve ceding of sovereignty. Why start now?
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,431
    pangolin said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Does the EU have a free trade agreement with any other neighbouring country that doesn't take their rules to a large extent?

    Edit - or that isn't on the path to membership

    Maybe better to ask which EU trade deals required its trade partners to cede material elements of sovereignty.
    The AA/DCFTA aims to boost trade in goods and services between the EU and Ukraine by gradually cutting tariffs and bringing Ukraine's rules in line with the EU's in certain industrial sectors and agricultural products.

    To better integrate with the EU market, Ukraine is harmonising many of its norms and standards in industrial and agricultural products. Ukraine is also aligning its legislation to the EU's in trade-related areas such as:

    Competition
    Technical barriers to trade (TBT)
    Sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS)
    Customs and trade facilitation
    Protection of intellectual property rights
    That is alignment of standards/regs, not ceding of sovereignty.

    And 1 country.
    Interesting.
    :D
    He's definitely going for the centre leftie smartarse points today rather than debating. No wonder you liked it ;)
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,334
    morstar said:

    pblakeney said:

    pinkbikini said:

    Spaffer’s last stand. Who here thinks he’ll still be around by summer ‘21?

    There was a story a few months ago about him leaving in the new year. Wouldn't surprise me. It was maybe based on him leaving on a high tide of "getting Brexit done", but now maybe getting kicked out by his own party for how he actually gets Brexit done.
    Even the term 'get brexit done' has unravelled.

    He hasn't managed to get any kind of Brexit done. It's just happening to a deadline.

    He's signed up to a sea border in the Irish sea and suggesting breaking international law is the only way to retain internal integrity.

    All this whilst facilitating a rise in popularity of nationalism in Scotland.

    Top marks for utter, utter failure on a grand scale.
    Yeah, that was kinda my point about how he has handled it, and is likely to get the boot because of that. Then there is covid....not going to go down well as a legacy.
    His beloved Churchill must be spinning in his grave.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,926
    Not sure it matters who the leader is. No one is going to rejoin the EU or accept some of the current proposals from the EU e.g. fishing, dynamic regulation, €750bn covid fund not being state aid, but only for one side.
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    TheBigBean said:

    Not sure it matters who the leader is. No one is going to rejoin the EU or accept some of the current proposals from the EU e.g. fishing, dynamic regulation, €750bn covid fund not being state aid, but only for one side.

    Better not elect a good number on this forum. They will see it as a cracking deal.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    edited December 2020
    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    Not sure it matters who the leader is. No one is going to rejoin the EU or accept some of the current proposals from the EU e.g. fishing, dynamic regulation, €750bn covid fund not being state aid, but only for one side.

    Better not elect a good number on this forum. They will see it as a cracking deal.
    No one on this thread sees the Brexit deal as a cracking deal.

    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    tailwindhome said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    Not sure it matters who the leader is. No one is going to rejoin the EU or accept some of the current proposals from the EU e.g. fishing, dynamic regulation, €750bn covid fund not being state aid, but only for one side.

    Better not elect a good number on this forum. They will see it as a cracking deal.
    No one on this thread sees the Brexit deal as a cracking deal.

    There are plenty that would accept any terms to rejoin whilst harping on about how we started it as per the original comment.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,155
    Stevo_666 said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Does the EU have a free trade agreement with any other neighbouring country that doesn't take their rules to a large extent?

    Edit - or that isn't on the path to membership

    Maybe better to ask which EU trade deals required its trade partners to cede material elements of sovereignty.
    The AA/DCFTA aims to boost trade in goods and services between the EU and Ukraine by gradually cutting tariffs and bringing Ukraine's rules in line with the EU's in certain industrial sectors and agricultural products.

    To better integrate with the EU market, Ukraine is harmonising many of its norms and standards in industrial and agricultural products. Ukraine is also aligning its legislation to the EU's in trade-related areas such as:

    Competition
    Technical barriers to trade (TBT)
    Sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS)
    Customs and trade facilitation
    Protection of intellectual property rights
    That is alignment of standards/regs, not ceding of sovereignty.

    And 1 country.
    Interesting.
    And correct. Sounds like youve shown that trade deals don't usually involve ceding of sovereignty. Why start now?
    To be honest, I asked a question I didn't know an answer to. Found your response interesting.

    I disagree that the deal with Ukraine isn't "ceding sovereignty". I think it probably is.

    If we want a deal with the EU, alignment is probably part of the deal. If we aren't prepared to do that, we probably aren't getting a deal.

    I've said all along I can't see us being rule takers without being part of the body that sets the rules. This current situation doesn't surprise me.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,155
    I'm also not surprised about the EU being d1cks about it with the state aid rules etc. I don't know what about their behaviour in the past would make anyone expect anything different.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    john80 said:

    tailwindhome said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    Not sure it matters who the leader is. No one is going to rejoin the EU or accept some of the current proposals from the EU e.g. fishing, dynamic regulation, €750bn covid fund not being state aid, but only for one side.

    Better not elect a good number on this forum. They will see it as a cracking deal.
    No one on this thread sees the Brexit deal as a cracking deal.

    There are plenty that would accept any terms to rejoin whilst harping on about how we started it as per the original comment.
    Plenty

    Both many and vague


    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    TheBigBean said:

    Not sure it matters who the leader is. No one is going to rejoin the EU or accept some of the current proposals from the EU e.g. fishing, dynamic regulation, €750bn covid fund not being state aid, but only for one side.

    I agree we’ve been shafted.
    But the Eu has been consistent and understands what it is losing. They are clearly prepared to do so to retain its core principles.

    Brexit was a promise that can’t be delivered how we were told it would be.

    Yes it matters who is in charge.
    Boris was one of its key drivers, he has failed to deliver. May got a solution with compromises that weren’t good enough for the Bojo gang and here we are.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,155
    rjsterry said:

    While we're posting links to UnHerd articles, this is an interesting read.

    https://unherd.com/2020/12/brexit-was-it-worth-it/

    I really can't get my head around a world view that sees all "remainers'" as the same, and when he decides that he agrees with how they voted, dislikes them more. It's like there are 16 million London based ex-Oxbridge politicos out there.

    Likewise, I can only think that people who hates all brexit supporters or thinks they are stupid doesn't know many of them.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    TheBigBean said:

    Not sure it matters who the leader is. No one is going to rejoin the EU or accept some of the current proposals from the EU e.g. fishing, dynamic regulation, €750bn covid fund not being state aid, but only for one side.

    The dynamic regulation feels like their big mistake to me, it will be very hard to sell to those who wanted us to get away from EU rule making and even for someone who doesn't want to leave it feels unreasonable.

    That said, back before the vote most on here were saying the UK would have no bargaining power and unfortunately we are seeing that come true. There will be losers on the EU side too but I've never understood the conviction by some that we could get a deal without big concessions.
  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 3,611
    Pross said:

    TheBigBean said:

    Not sure it matters who the leader is. No one is going to rejoin the EU or accept some of the current proposals from the EU e.g. fishing, dynamic regulation, €750bn covid fund not being state aid, but only for one side.

    The dynamic regulation feels like their big mistake to me, it will be very hard to sell to those who wanted us to get away from EU rule making and even for someone who doesn't want to leave it feels unreasonable.

    That said, back before the vote most on here were saying the UK would have no bargaining power and unfortunately we are seeing that come true. There will be losers on the EU side too but I've never understood the conviction by some that we could get a deal without big concessions.
    Honestly I think dynamic regulation is just a Turd that needs rolling in glitter and large portions of the electorate wouldn't really give a hoot.

  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    kingstongraham said:

    rjsterry said:

    While we're posting links to UnHerd articles, this is an interesting read.

    https://unherd.com/2020/12/brexit-was-it-worth-it/

    I really can't get my head around a world view that sees all "remainers'" as the same, and when he decides that he agrees with how they voted, dislikes them more. It's like there are 16 million London based ex-Oxbridge politicos out there.

    Likewise, I can only think that people who hates all brexit supporters or thinks they are stupid doesn't know many of them.
    His media consumption means that he sees/hears Aaron Banks every day. That is a pretty small and intense echo chamber.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    James Forsyth is the editor in chief of Boris’s chumocracy and after reading his weekly column in The Times I am convinced we are heading towards no-deal.

    What underpins my belief is the unguarded “fvck business” comment and his belief in a command economy. If I held those views then I would not see any downsides apart from some short-term disruption as the state levels fired up it’s levers and ran things better than they were before.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,155
    surrey_commuter said:

    James Forsyth is the editor in chief of Boris’s chumocracy and after reading his weekly column in The Times I am convinced we are heading towards no-deal.

    What underpins my belief is the unguarded “fvck business” comment and his belief in a command economy. If I held those views then I would not see any downsides apart from some short-term disruption as the state levels fired up it’s levers and ran things better than they were before.

    I read that too (as a times reading London type), and it's another example of one side saying that the other side didn't understand how important X is to them.

    If the difference in the way state aid is treated was resolved, that still leaves alignment, and I don't think the UK side understand how important that is. In this, I think he is entirely wrong - they are treating the UK as a large neighbouring country who is a party to a trade deal. Not as a leaving country who needs to be constrained.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,189
    It seems to me that the number of people who "act like they went to Oxbridge" greatly exceeds (a) the number of people who actually went to Oxbridge; and (b) the number of those who "act like they went to Oxbridge".

    There seems to be some confusion with the larger group who went to private school, which is where they really teach children to be more confident than their abilities merit... and to project their voice.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,580
    kingstongraham said:

    rjsterry said:

    While we're posting links to UnHerd articles, this is an interesting read.

    https://unherd.com/2020/12/brexit-was-it-worth-it/

    I really can't get my head around a world view that sees all "remainers'" as the same, and when he decides that he agrees with how they voted, dislikes them more. It's like there are 16 million London based ex-Oxbridge politicos out there.

    Likewise, I can only think that people who hates all brexit supporters or thinks they are stupid doesn't know many of them.
    Yes, he comes across as very bitter. I guess there's a degree of comfort in blaming a vaguely defined other group for whatever difficulties one is facing. It means it's not *your* fault and because it's not personalised you don't feel like too much of a bastard for hating 'them'.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Still think we're being softened up for some weak arsed deal.
    _
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,389
    Is Cake-&-Eat-It not going to happen then?

    Who'd have thought it?
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    At what point can we start saying I told you so?
    _
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,189
    rick_chasey said:

    At what point can we start saying I told you so?

    That was about 18 months ago.

    People will still trust the Tories to get us out of the mess they have got us into though.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,926
    First.Aspect said:

    It seems to me that the number of people who "act like they went to Oxbridge" greatly exceeds (a) the number of people who actually went to Oxbridge; and (b) the number of those who "act like they went to Oxbridge".

    There seems to be some confusion with the larger group who went to private school, which is where they really teach children to be more confident than their abilities merit... and to project their voice.

    Makes me wonder which people in Cake Stop went to Oxbridge.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,926
    kingstongraham said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    James Forsyth is the editor in chief of Boris’s chumocracy and after reading his weekly column in The Times I am convinced we are heading towards no-deal.

    What underpins my belief is the unguarded “fvck business” comment and his belief in a command economy. If I held those views then I would not see any downsides apart from some short-term disruption as the state levels fired up it’s levers and ran things better than they were before.

    I read that too (as a times reading London type), and it's another example of one side saying that the other side didn't understand how important X is to them.

    If the difference in the way state aid is treated was resolved, that still leaves alignment, and I don't think the UK side understand how important that is. In this, I think he is entirely wrong - they are treating the UK as a large neighbouring country who is a party to a trade deal. Not as a leaving country who needs to be constrained.
    If alignment was that important they wouldn't have signed the deals with Canada and Japan. Of course trade levels are smaller, but the EU's market is still potentially competing on different terms.

    The single most important thing is that the EU is not seen to have lost because that would cause an existential crisis. Anything else is possible.

    The weird thing is that I am told on this thread that no economist thinks any deal would be as good as membership, so I'm not sure what the EU is worried about. Just feels like classic empire building nervousness.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,155
    TheBigBean said:

    kingstongraham said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    James Forsyth is the editor in chief of Boris’s chumocracy and after reading his weekly column in The Times I am convinced we are heading towards no-deal.

    What underpins my belief is the unguarded “fvck business” comment and his belief in a command economy. If I held those views then I would not see any downsides apart from some short-term disruption as the state levels fired up it’s levers and ran things better than they were before.

    I read that too (as a times reading London type), and it's another example of one side saying that the other side didn't understand how important X is to them.

    If the difference in the way state aid is treated was resolved, that still leaves alignment, and I don't think the UK side understand how important that is. In this, I think he is entirely wrong - they are treating the UK as a large neighbouring country who is a party to a trade deal. Not as a leaving country who needs to be constrained.
    If alignment was that important they wouldn't have signed the deals with Canada and Japan. Of course trade levels are smaller, but the EU's market is still potentially competing on different terms.

    The single most important thing is that the EU is not seen to have lost because that would cause an existential crisis. Anything else is possible.

    The weird thing is that I am told on this thread that no economist thinks any deal would be as good as membership, so I'm not sure what the EU is worried about. Just feels like classic empire building nervousness.
    There is a clear difference for a regional organisation between a trade deal with a distant country and one with a neighbouring country. The EU has applied this distinction in its dealings so far.

    If they want a deal with the UK enough to go against that, then fair enough, but I don't think it can be expected.

    If the UK didn't want to keep alignment, then we shouldn't have signed the political declaration that said:

    "Given the Union and the United Kingdom's geographic proximity and economic
    interdependence, the future relationship must ensure open and fair competition,
    encompassing robust commitments to ensure a level playing field. The precise nature of commitments should be commensurate with the scope and depth of the future relationship and the economic connectedness of the Parties. These commitments should prevent distortions of trade and unfair competitive advantages. To that end, the Parties should uphold the common high standards applicable in the Union and the United Kingdom at the end of the transition period in the areas of state aid, competition, social and employment standards, environment, climate change, and relevant tax matters. The Parties should in particular maintain a robust and comprehensive framework for competition and state aid control that prevents undue distortion of trade and competition; commit to the principles of good governance in the area of taxation and to the curbing of harmful tax practices; and maintain environmental, social and employment standards at the current high levels
    provided by the existing common standards. In so doing, they should rely on appropriate and relevant Union and international standards, and include appropriate mechanisms to ensure effective implementation domestically, enforcement and dispute settlement. The future relationship should also promote adherence to and effective implementation of relevant internationally agreed principles and rules in these domains, including the Paris Agreement."

    Of course, the changing of standards is different - that commits to maintaining standards.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,926
    edited December 2020
    kingstongraham said:



    Of course, the changing of standards is different - that commits to maintaining standards.

    Quite. And the UK has accepted the above. An earlier draft of that clause hinted at it changing with time, but the final drafted removed the hint, so it is hard to argue the UK agree to it.

    Also, I see the regional stuff as more about empire building than competition. The EU wants to expand, but can only do that locally. Ultimately, a car built in Japan with low standards is going to compete with a car in the EU.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,189
    TheBigBean said:

    First.Aspect said:

    It seems to me that the number of people who "act like they went to Oxbridge" greatly exceeds (a) the number of people who actually went to Oxbridge; and (b) the number of those who "act like they went to Oxbridge".

    There seems to be some confusion with the larger group who went to private school, which is where they really teach children to be more confident than their abilities merit... and to project their voice.

    Makes me wonder which people in Cake Stop went to Oxbridge.
    What about private school?

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