BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    edited February 2020
    Look, the SNP are decidedly internationalist, just not with English rule, which is not entirely the same.

    I don't know much about irish politics so I'm not going to pretend to give you an answer, but honestly. Without getting all godwin about it, I think we can agree the 'national soclailsit' party was indeed, right wing, but at the same time, was pre-occupied with looking after folk with lower incomes and was quite heavy on state intervention. Their brethren in Italy were similar. Being for the 'working class' is not exclusive to the left.


    I think you're being too narrow and too 20th C in how you're defining left/right.

  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569

    To put it more plainly, despite what Corbyn et al think, I don't think he and the labour leadership share many views in common with working class leave voters, especially on cultural issues.

    I think the modern split is the split you see in the culture wars, and you're being naive to suggest otherwise.

    Clearly it's the liberal-left bubble, then. You're just not admitting it.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,555
    Maybe Left/Right is a rather limited, one dimensional way to look at political demographics.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    I also refuse to see Brexit as anything other than modern day right wing project.

    If you disagree that's fine, but I think you're wrong about that.
  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    edited February 2020
    rjsterry said:

    Maybe Left/Right is a rather limited, one dimensional way to look at political demographics.

    That's why I said Left and Right are broad coalitions. Despite all the later recriminations, Blair's first cabinet (1997 - 2001) is probably the most effective government of my adult life, and is a good example of a "coaliton of the left" (having a thumping majority helps, though)

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/629/629/6428025.stm

    https://labourlist.org/2017/05/andrew-gwynne-for-the-many-not-the-few-20-years-on-from-the-1997-election/

    Corbyn managed a balancing act between opposite wings in the 2017 manifesto, but by Dec 2019 the hard left and the liberal/centre left were irreconcilable.
  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    edited February 2020

    I also refuse to see Brexit as anything other than modern day right wing project.

    If you disagree that's fine, but I think you're wrong about that.

    I try to manage my social media to (at least) expand the political bubble I live in. I have hard line remainers and leavers in my social circle. Clearly many of my freindships survive based on a willinglness to not bang on about Brexit all the time and not to stereotype Leave and Remain voters.

    To "refuse to see Brexit as anything other than a modern right wing project" is clearly a case of choosing an ideological position and ignoring evidence. I'm guessing your social circle will adjust itself to conform to your viewpoint. Or am I still being naive?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    edited February 2020
    I know you keep trying to make it about me and where I'm from or who I know, but I'm not going to really get involved in that. It's wonderful that you try to 'expand the political bubble' though it's cute you think that's anything notable.

    If you're interested in the discussion as opposed to point scoring (it's fine, we all do it, me included), why not let me know why you think Brexit isn't a right wing project and why it shouldn't be described by that.

    So far, you've mentioned that 'northern leave voters' voted leave, but i'm not convinced they are in any modern way describable as 'left wing'; I suspect their values and their priorities broadly are not aligned with what 21st century leftism looks like.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,555
    edited February 2020
    I think you need to expand on what you think 21st century leftism is and why you think people who have voted Labour all their lives and in many cases been trade union members, don't fit within that.

    Mrfpb has a point: the SNP is definitely a separatist nationalist party and by most standards would be considered broadly leftwing in economic terms (and possibly socially).
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,916
    In 2006, British Prime Minister Tony Blair described the main cleavage in politics as not left versus right, but open versus closed.[59] In this model, attitudes towards social issues and globalism are more important than the conventional economic left–right issues: "open" voters tend to be socially liberal, multicultural and in favour of globalism, while "closed" voters are culturally conservative, opposed to immigration and in favour of protectionism. This model has seen increased support following the rise of populist and centrist parties in the 2010s
    I don't agree with Rick, but I thought the above from Wikipedia might aid discussion.



  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,555

    I also refuse to see Brexit as anything other than modern day right wing project.

    If you disagree that's fine, but I think you're wrong about that.

    I think that's far too limited. There's an element of that for sure, and one that appears to be in the ascendant at the moment, but that is certainly not the whole story.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    So what is the whole story?

    It seems to me to be something that was an obsession of the right wing - and by that I mean culturally conservative, anti-immigration, anti-muilticulturalist; conservative with regard to various right for minorities - of the tory party, which eventually consumed it.

    The alignment of people who are like that and are *actual* brexit supporters is extremely close.
  • rjsterry said:

    I also refuse to see Brexit as anything other than modern day right wing project.

    If you disagree that's fine, but I think you're wrong about that.

    I think that's far too limited. There's an element of that for sure, and one that appears to be in the ascendant at the moment, but that is certainly not the whole story.
    Surely the 40 year driving force for it was the right wing of the Tory party, brighter people than them built a broad coalition by linking it to other causes that cut across traditional party lines.
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674

    *actual* brexit supporters

    I presume you mean "as opposed to people who post thousand of posts arguing for Brexit and firing cheap shots at Remainers but are keen to point out that they actually voted Remain"?
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,555

    rjsterry said:

    I also refuse to see Brexit as anything other than modern day right wing project.

    If you disagree that's fine, but I think you're wrong about that.

    I think that's far too limited. There's an element of that for sure, and one that appears to be in the ascendant at the moment, but that is certainly not the whole story.
    Surely the 40 year driving force for it was the right wing of the Tory party, brighter people than them built a broad coalition by linking it to other causes that cut across traditional party lines.
    Agreed, but I'm not sure clever marketing can tap into these other views held by a wide variety of people unless to some extent they already hold those views, albeit in an unexpressed state. They didn't manufacture support for Brexit out of nothing.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569

    I know you keep trying to make it about me and where I'm from or who I know, but I'm not going to really get involved in that. It's wonderful that you try to 'expand the political bubble' though it's cute you think that's anything notable.

    If you're interested in the discussion as opposed to point scoring (it's fine, we all do it, me included), why not let me know why you think Brexit isn't a right wing project and why it shouldn't be described by that.

    So far, you've mentioned that 'northern leave voters' voted leave, but i'm not convinced they are in any modern way describable as 'left wing'; I suspect their values and their priorities broadly are not aligned with what 21st century leftism looks like.

    First of all, I apologise for making it too personal.

    The northern voters, (who I worked with in the public sector for ten years and still stay in touch with) are mostly left wing in the sense of being pro-workers rights, willing to take industrial action for collective improvements, willing to promote and work for social equality as a political goal. Some are Leave voters, some are Remain voters. They are not all hardliners one way or the other, but some are. The same goes for my family and friends in South Wales, same for my family in Ireland. (Though I have some very right wing views amongst those).

    Talking about 20th and 21st centruy left wingers suggests you have written off the lives and aspirations of the Northern communities as no longer valid. It is a South-Eastern political attitude that is too narrow in it's scope.

    SinnFein and SNP both essentailly trade on anti-English sentiment. Their political discourse depends on the fear/blame of "the other" - relying on 100 or 200 year old arguments. (My grandparents were around for the 1916 uprising, and most of their generation were happy to put the past behind and look to the future, SinnFein seem to have gained more popularity now that the original generation are not around to say why they fought the English).

    Free from English "rule", SNP and SinnFein will need to find another "other" for people to fear. It is an essentally nationalist trait. And yes, I know the Tory party are guilty of it too, and the Labour movement have been guilty of it in the past - when trade unions wrote anti -immmigration rule books in the 60's and 70's. It is not a right wing trait, it is a nationalistic, protectionaist trait that both left and right have used in the 20th and 21st centuries.

    Brexit is only right wing because we have had a right wing government for the entire debate since the referendum was announced, and the opposition has been left wing - though, in thruth, the referrendum coverage was predominantly right v. right (Cameron and Osborne v. Gove and Boris), just as the original 1974 referrendum coverage was left v. left (Benn v. Jenkins)
    A left wing argument for Brexit would be that it is anti trade union, and promotes low wages and the gig economy, but apparently, these are "20th century" concerns.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,555
    Excellently put Mrfpb.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rjsterry said:

    rjsterry said:

    I also refuse to see Brexit as anything other than modern day right wing project.

    If you disagree that's fine, but I think you're wrong about that.

    I think that's far too limited. There's an element of that for sure, and one that appears to be in the ascendant at the moment, but that is certainly not the whole story.
    Surely the 40 year driving force for it was the right wing of the Tory party, brighter people than them built a broad coalition by linking it to other causes that cut across traditional party lines.
    Agreed, but I'm not sure clever marketing can tap into these other views held by a wide variety of people unless to some extent they already hold those views, albeit in an unexpressed state. They didn't manufacture support for Brexit out of nothing.
    not sure I would call linking funding of the NHS to EU membership clever marketing. All the opinion polls showed that EU membership was not an issue for people (one way or the other)
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,916
    mrfpb said:


    A left wing argument for Brexit would be that it is anti trade union, and promotes low wages and the gig economy, but apparently, these are "20th century" concerns.

    You can extend the left wing argument to include higher standards of regulation and greater government intervention e.g. state aid. These arguments can also apply to an environmental argument for Brexit.
  • RC getting called out for his narrow mindedness again!

    Most people have the competence to learn from their mistakes but intolerant RC is an exception
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    edited February 2020
    mrfpb said:

    I know you keep trying to make it about me and where I'm from or who I know, but I'm not going to really get involved in that. It's wonderful that you try to 'expand the political bubble' though it's cute you think that's anything notable.

    If you're interested in the discussion as opposed to point scoring (it's fine, we all do it, me included), why not let me know why you think Brexit isn't a right wing project and why it shouldn't be described by that.

    So far, you've mentioned that 'northern leave voters' voted leave, but i'm not convinced they are in any modern way describable as 'left wing'; I suspect their values and their priorities broadly are not aligned with what 21st century leftism looks like.

    First of all, I apologise for making it too personal.

    The northern voters, (who I worked with in the public sector for ten years and still stay in touch with) are mostly left wing in the sense of being pro-workers rights, willing to take industrial action for collective improvements, willing to promote and work for social equality as a political goal. Some are Leave voters, some are Remain voters. They are not all hardliners one way or the other, but some are. The same goes for my family and friends in South Wales, same for my family in Ireland. (Though I have some very right wing views amongst those).

    Talking about 20th and 21st centruy left wingers suggests you have written off the lives and aspirations of the Northern communities as no longer valid. It is a South-Eastern political attitude that is too narrow in it's scope.

    SinnFein and SNP both essentailly trade on anti-English sentiment. Their political discourse depends on the fear/blame of "the other" - relying on 100 or 200 year old arguments. (My grandparents were around for the 1916 uprising, and most of their generation were happy to put the past behind and look to the future, SinnFein seem to have gained more popularity now that the original generation are not around to say why they fought the English).

    Free from English "rule", SNP and SinnFein will need to find another "other" for people to fear. It is an essentally nationalist trait. And yes, I know the Tory party are guilty of it too, and the Labour movement have been guilty of it in the past - when trade unions wrote anti -immmigration rule books in the 60's and 70's. It is not a right wing trait, it is a nationalistic, protectionaist trait that both left and right have used in the 20th and 21st centuries.

    Brexit is only right wing because we have had a right wing government for the entire debate since the referendum was announced, and the opposition has been left wing - though, in thruth, the referrendum coverage was predominantly right v. right (Cameron and Osborne v. Gove and Boris), just as the original 1974 referrendum coverage was left v. left (Benn v. Jenkins)
    A left wing argument for Brexit would be that it is anti trade union, and promotes low wages and the gig economy, but apparently, these are "20th century" concerns.
    So, trade unions: This is for me, a preoccupation of old people who have spent the majority of their lives in the 20th Century and does not reflect the newer leftism.

    This is reflected in the fact that only 4% of people under 25 are part of a TU. and 77% of all TU members are over 35. Trade Unionism is not something I ever hear anyone mention, either on the telly, in newspapers, or in person, with the exception of discussing labour party leadership elections. It is not part of the general discourse.

    Rightly or wrongly they are a relic of the past and they are not, as far as I understand, a critical pre-occupation of the left.

    I'm not particularly disputing that, in various instances, old left wing politics (pre-occupied by trade unionism, industrial action, basically acting in their own economic interest against the capitalists who were also doing the same) has been in various guises parochial, nationalist and all the rest.

    That is entirely my point. Those things are no longer occupying both sides. In the new era, as BB pointed out in Blair's "open vs closed" description. there is a clear cut correlation between people who are 'closed', who are culturally conservative, who object to political correctness, identity politics and are resistant to globalisation. That is the new preoccupation of the right, and that is why you get folk who have *always voted labour* suddenly not voting labour. Trade Unions are less interesting when you're retired, and the change in voting recognises a shift in the alignment of what left and right is.

    Corbyn, in his 'liberal metropolitan elite' with his pre-occupation for identity politics, the environment and general left moral superiority is what the left is now. It is not trade unions, industrial action. It is only, and he gets a lot of criticism on the left for this, that Corbyn is stuck in the wrong century that he still thinks that he represents the 'working class' by being pro-TU and all the rest. His objections to globalisation, etc are all aligned with many facets of the right. That's why his proverication on Brexit also mullered labour - because most of their voters disagreed with him on that, and the third who did support brexit were voting labour out of tribal habbit, rather than because they were algined on cultural values.

    He doesn't represent the 'working class', and that's why plenty of 'working class' folk who don't live in cities and see the day-to-day advantages of multi-culturalism (another pre-occupation of the modern left) don't want to vote for him. They are not 'woke', they are not interested in multi-culturalism, they want to call people the gender they were born with and they don't want the EU interfering in UK politics because they think, (with some reason) that the EU disagrees.

    I too have connections in the North; I'm there every month, I married a south Yorkshire woman, I studied there. A bunch of my friends are from and live there. You can split Yorkshire folk in the above way to. It's not about how you earn your money that defines you any more. It's not how you exercise your economic power, collectively or otherwise. It's about what your cultural values are, and Brexit is the embodiment of the right wing cultural values of anti-globalisation, anti-immigrant, anti-multiculturalism.

    There will be people who are members of TUs, or who are 'worknig class' who do align culturally with the left, are woke, blah blah, and they will continue to vote left.

    My point is that your means of work no longer define your politics like they used to. Your attitiude to things like Brexit do.

    On a practical note, Brexit was something that was hatched straight out of the fringes of the tory party (over a 30-40 year period), and at various points brought tory governments down, and it still very much is. It was, literally, a right wing tory project.

  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    edited February 2020
    That's odd. I was offered trade union membership in the first week of a new job in leafy Surrey in October 2017, and I took it. Most of your text above just proves that you are unaware of how progressive trade unionism operates in co-operative employers and the public sector.

    You may think that it's in the past but the lack of access to trade unions is a real concern for a lot of people faced with choosing, for example, a well paid locum post over a permanaent post with good job security but lower wages.
    Your view of "working class folk"



    plenty of 'working class' folk who don't live in cities and see the day-to-day advantages of multi-culturalism (another pre-occupation of the modern left) don't want to vote for him. They are not 'woke', they are not interested in multi-culturalism, they want to call people the gender they were born with

    demonstrates considrerable ignorance of the people I am talking about, and amounts to serious prejdice. But as you said earlier you refuse to see Brexit as anything other than a right wing issue, a clear admission of ingrained prejudice.
  • That's really selective quoting
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,916

    That's really selective quoting

    Who is guilty?
  • That's really selective quoting

    Who is guilty?
    The post that has now vanished.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    edited February 2020

    In 2006, British Prime Minister Tony Blair described the main cleavage in politics as not left versus right, but open versus closed.[59] In this model, attitudes towards social issues and globalism are more important than the conventional economic left–right issues: "open" voters tend to be socially liberal, multicultural and in favour of globalism, while "closed" voters are culturally conservative, opposed to immigration and in favour of protectionism. This model has seen increased support following the rise of populist and centrist parties in the 2010s
    I don't agree with Rick, but I thought the above from Wikipedia might aid discussion.






    Interesting podcast on these themes from Matt Forde interviewing Gregg Hurwitz, who I'd never heard of before, an author who worked with the Democratic Party and has interesting thoughts on the psychology of liberal and conservative mind sets and what's required to 'speak' to the other side.



    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,555

    ... anti-globalisation, anti-immigrant, anti-multiculturalism.

    My point is that your means of work no longer define your politics like they used to. Your attitiude to things like Brexit do.

    That these views tend to be found together is not in doubt. But you seem to want to redefine what the left and right wings of politics are so that you can fit this collection of ideas into one side of this axis. I think it's a different axis altogether.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    edited February 2020
    duplicate post!
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    rjsterry said:

    ... anti-globalisation, anti-immigrant, anti-multiculturalism.

    My point is that your means of work no longer define your politics like they used to. Your attitiude to things like Brexit do.

    That these views tend to be found together is not in doubt. But you seem to want to redefine what the left and right wings of politics are so that you can fit this collection of ideas into one side of this axis. I think it's a different axis altogether.
    It's not so much I want to re-define it; I think when people say 'brexit is more of a divider than left/right' it's because that left/right has changed and Brexit is a *symptom* of that.

    The rise of the far right across the West is not being driven by well off people, is it? Who are the people driving that?
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,916
    One challenge for the EU is it is currently having to argue that the LPF arrangements under CETA are sufficient and national governments should accept them for the purposes of CETA, whilst at the same time argue that they are insufficient for the UK and should be rejected. At the moment, these positions are being held together by a proximity/size argument, but that is fairly weak
  • Is Boris right wing and by extension the Tory party, or is he a left wing cuckoo in a right wing nest. I have read interesting comparisons between Ed Milliband's manifesto and Boris's fiscal approach.