BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    Macron seems to have stepped into Junker's "arch-Federalist" shoes. Rutte is maybe taking on the UK's "Eurosceptic-in-Chief" role. I can post him a biography of Bach, if the summit goes over the weekend.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Significantly cutting CAP seems like such an obvious (politics aside) solution.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    They're the same roles they have always played. I don't know why it's worth remarking on.
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    "Believing that migrants significantly reduce wages is like believing the MMR vaccine causes autism: there's no evidence or theory to support the idea, but a simple fallacy makes it plausible"
    _
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,413
    rick_chasey said:

    They're the same roles they have always played. I don't know why it's worth remarking on.

    Including the European superstate ambitions?
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,555
    Stevo_666 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    They're the same roles they have always played. I don't know why it's worth remarking on.

    Including the European superstate ambitions?
    It's been one strand of thought as long as I can remember. And similarly there have always been those opposing the idea. As for arguments about the budget, I don't for a moment imagine that everyone in our own Cabinet is happy with what their department gets each year.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,561
    The 'Project' is what the majority of citizens within the EU don't want. It sums up everything that is wrong about Eurocrats, and is majorly anti-democratic. The citizens want freedom of movement, standardisation of regulations, free trade, but do not want a federal superstate. This is a major factor in the rise of the nationalist across Europe.

    I wonder what future role Macron evisages for himself within the EU when the French kick him out in a couple of years.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,329
    Dorset_Boy said:

    The citizens want freedom of movement, standardisation of regulations, free trade, but do not want a federal superstate

    Those citizens can't see the big picture of what they want then. The best way to get all of the above is as a federal superstate, U.S.A. for example.
    Maybe they don't want what they think they want.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    pblakeney said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    The citizens want freedom of movement, standardisation of regulations, free trade, but do not want a federal superstate

    Those citizens can't see the big picture of what they want then. The best way to get all of the above is as a federal superstate, U.S.A. for example.
    Maybe they don't want what they think they want.
    Sounds more like they want something they think they don’t want
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Dorset_Boy said:

    The 'Project' is what the majority of citizens within the EU don't want. It sums up everything that is wrong about Eurocrats, and is majorly anti-democratic. The citizens want freedom of movement, standardisation of regulations, free trade, but do not want a federal superstate. This is a major factor in the rise of the nationalist across Europe.

    I wonder what future role Macron evisages for himself within the EU when the French kick him out in a couple of years.

    Wasn’t the main thing for Macron was to create a pot to allow for some centralised stabilising fiscal policy to work in conjunction with the ECB?
    _
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,561
    The difference you failed to spot with the USA is the differnt languages, cultural identities, and centuries of history, and most ordinary citizens do not want those lost in the Eurocrat's dream of a federal superstate.

    All the objectives of the ordinary citizen of the EU can be achieved without the Superstate that only a minority desire.

    They also possibly recognise the structural failings that projects like the euro have and the damage that is causing the majority of Euro using states, and also have spotted that the rush towards federalism is way to hasty (just like the Euro project was rushed in).
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,413
    rick_chasey said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    The 'Project' is what the majority of citizens within the EU don't want. It sums up everything that is wrong about Eurocrats, and is majorly anti-democratic. The citizens want freedom of movement, standardisation of regulations, free trade, but do not want a federal superstate. This is a major factor in the rise of the nationalist across Europe.

    I wonder what future role Macron evisages for himself within the EU when the French kick him out in a couple of years.

    Wasn’t the main thing for Macron was to create a pot to allow for some centralised stabilising fiscal policy to work in conjunction with the ECB?
    He is pushing for moves towards fiscal union such as the above, but many states - Germany included - will not countenance that.

    However without that fiscal union, the EU remains exposed to major economic shocks that could be existential - as I have argued on here before.
    https://blogs.imf.org/2018/02/21/the-euro-area-needs-a-fiscal-union/

    It would also be a major step towards an EU super state. Which as others have mentioned, is less than popular, even outside the UK.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,413
    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    They're the same roles they have always played. I don't know why it's worth remarking on.

    Including the European superstate ambitions?
    It's been one strand of thought as long as I can remember. And similarly there have always been those opposing the idea. As for arguments about the budget, I don't for a moment imagine that everyone in our own Cabinet is happy with what their department gets each year.
    As mentioned above , the Superstate idea is not popular with many on the continent - both at the governmental and voter level. If the 2016 referendum had been a choice between leave or join an EU superstate, I reckon leave would have had a landslide win.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,329
    Dorset_Boy said:

    The difference you failed to spot with the USA is the differnt languages, cultural identities, and centuries of history...

    Texans have as much in common with Californians as the English do with the French. The language may be similar, but it is different in tone and culturally.

    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,413
    edited February 2020
    pblakeney said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    The difference you failed to spot with the USA is the differnt languages, cultural identities, and centuries of history...

    Texans have as much in common with Californians as the English do with the French. The language may be similar, but it is different in tone and culturally.

    The US is a lot more homogeneous than Europe in several resects. Hence the problems that the EU has with persuading it's citizens to form an EU Superstate compared to the US which managed a US Superstate ages ago. Intelligence could also be a factor...
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,555
    pblakeney said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    The difference you failed to spot with the USA is the differnt languages, cultural identities, and centuries of history...

    Texans have as much in common with Californians as the English do with the French. The language may be similar, but it is different in tone and culturally.

    When I first read it I thought he was talking about the different languages, cultural identities, and centuries of history that had gone into forming the US. Then I realised DB thinks they're all the same.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,555
    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    They're the same roles they have always played. I don't know why it's worth remarking on.

    Including the European superstate ambitions?
    It's been one strand of thought as long as I can remember. And similarly there have always been those opposing the idea. As for arguments about the budget, I don't for a moment imagine that everyone in our own Cabinet is happy with what their department gets each year.
    As mentioned above , the Superstate idea is not popular with many on the continent - both at the governmental and voter level. If the 2016 referendum had been a choice between leave or join an EU superstate, I reckon leave would have had a landslide win.
    I know, which is why the talk of an imminent EU superstate has always been a hysterical exaggeration. It never has been just around the corner, however much people like Macron would like it to be.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,413
    rjsterry said:

    pblakeney said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    The difference you failed to spot with the USA is the differnt languages, cultural identities, and centuries of history...

    Texans have as much in common with Californians as the English do with the French. The language may be similar, but it is different in tone and culturally.

    When I first read it I thought he was talking about the different languages, cultural identities, and centuries of history that had gone into forming the US. Then I realised DB thinks they're all the same.
    The US states have a lot less differences thsn the states of Europe, as mentioned above. Hence the upward battle that EU federalist politicians have in forcing them together.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Jeremy.89
    Jeremy.89 Posts: 457
    Dorset_Boy said:

    The difference you failed to spot with the USA is the differnt languages, cultural identities, and centuries of history, and most ordinary citizens do not want those lost in the Eurocrat's dream of a federal superstate.

    All the objectives of the ordinary citizen of the EU can be achieved without the Superstate that only a minority desire.

    They also possibly recognise the structural failings that projects like the euro have and the damage that is causing the majority of Euro using states, and also have spotted that the rush towards federalism is way to hasty (just like the Euro project was rushed in).

    You seem to be describing amny aspects of what some would refer to as a superstate. Saying the people of the EU desire them, and then saying the people of the EU don't want a superstate.

    You also seem to be making assumptions about America that don't really seem true. Most Europeans share just as much as most Americans.
  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    The USA has had a civil war due to not resolving an inherent conflict of interest in it's formation and expansion. And in the 30's California closed it's borders to the other states for a short time due to economic imbalance with the surrounding states (esp. Oklahoma).
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,555
    edited February 2020
    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    pblakeney said:

    Dorset_Boy said:

    The difference you failed to spot with the USA is the differnt languages, cultural identities, and centuries of history...

    Texans have as much in common with Californians as the English do with the French. The language may be similar, but it is different in tone and culturally.

    When I first read it I thought he was talking about the different languages, cultural identities, and centuries of history that had gone into forming the US. Then I realised DB thinks they're all the same.
    The US states have a lot less differences thsn the states of Europe, as mentioned above. Hence the upward battle that EU federalist politicians have in forcing them together.
    Maybe now. Three of the States are literally named after the French and English monarchs, while New York was founded as New Amsterdam. The US has had a nearly two centuries head start even if the EU federalised tomorrow, including an extremely bloody civil war over the terms of the union. And I think it's pretty significant that so many Americans define themselves by which other bit of the world they or their predecessors emigrated from. Give the Macrons and Junckers another 150 years and let's reassess. In the immediate future it's not a pressing issue one way or the other.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    And the United States were initially united by their desire to reject European rule. :)
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    mrfpb said:

    And the United States were initially united by their desire to reject European rule. :)

    Without putting a too finer point on it, the people making those decisions *were European*, so try again.
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Brexiters always talk about Greece when they talk economics (never Germany or France or any economy similar to the UK), always talk France when it’s EU politics (never any other country).

    I love how whenever Macron makes a speech suggesting he’d like more integration all the Brexiters come out shouting “seeeee!” as if it’s some kind of secret conspiracy that no one knows about but them.

    Yet at the same time they also point to far right leaders who say they want their nation out and shout “see, Brits aren’t the only ones who want out” and can’t see the cognitive dissonance.
    _
  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    rick_chasey said:

    mrfpb said:

    And the United States were initially united by their desire to reject European rule. :)

    Without putting a too finer point on it, the people making those decisions *were European*, so try again.
    We're Europeans too.

    Most of the white population were of European descent, but not European - the revolution was a couple of centuries after colonisation started. They were more "American" than I am British.
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,561
    rick_chasey said:

    Brexiters always talk about Greece when they talk economics (never Germany or France or any economy similar to the UK), always talk France when it’s EU politics (never any other country).

    I love how whenever Macron makes a speech suggesting he’d like more integration all the Brexiters come out shouting “seeeee!” as if it’s some kind of secret conspiracy that no one knows about but them.

    Yet at the same time they also point to far right leaders who say they want their nation out and shout “see, Brits aren’t the only ones who want out” and can’t see the cognitive dissonance.

    Actually Rick, plenty of people do comment how the euro has hugely benefitted Germany at the expense of the southern european states, and how it has prevented those states from dealing with the fall out from 2008-09.

    The true exchange rate for the German euro would be parity with the dollar, but for Spain and Italy it would be $1-00 = Euro 1-75 or more.

    It's implementation was a rushed decision by a bunch of politicos desperate to leave a mark.
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,561
    The US has 2 centuries or so of history as a nation.
    The European countries have 20 centuries or more of history as nation states, with different languages, cultures and history.

    Macron and his Eurocrat mates see the end game of the project as a European superstate.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    well done - so remind me why Brexiters feel it’s so bad the UK takes advantage of that?
    _
  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    Also worth asking if any ECSC/EEC/EC/EU treaty has been in a a direction away from federaliation? The various names of the community might give a clue.
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,561
    rick_chasey said:

    well done - so remind me why Brexiters feel it’s so bad the UK takes advantage of that?

    Sorry Rick, what's the context? It's unclear.

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