BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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There is quite a lag between writing and posts appearing. It gets confusing sometimes when we don't use the Quote function (guilty m'lord)0
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Not quite. The Treaty of Paris at the end of the Seven Years War ceded Louisiana (a much larger area than the modern state and far larger than the British Colonies) and Florida from France and Spain to the British, uniting the colonies east of the Mississippi. When the British colonies gained independence (only a few years later), Spain still owned most of the other half of North America. France briefly regained it's territories west of the Mississippi, only for Napoleon to sell them to the newly formed US to fund his European empire.mrfpb said:And the United States were initially united by their desire to reject European rule.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Is that the true exchange rate with the New York dollar, the Cali dollar or the middle of Mississippi?Dorset_Boy said:
Actually Rick, plenty of people do comment how the euro has hugely benefitted Germany at the expense of the southern european states, and how it has prevented those states from dealing with the fall out from 2008-09.rick_chasey said:Brexiters always talk about Greece when they talk economics (never Germany or France or any economy similar to the UK), always talk France when it’s EU politics (never any other country).
I love how whenever Macron makes a speech suggesting he’d like more integration all the Brexiters come out shouting “seeeee!” as if it’s some kind of secret conspiracy that no one knows about but them.
Yet at the same time they also point to far right leaders who say they want their nation out and shout “see, Brits aren’t the only ones who want out” and can’t see the cognitive dissonance.
The true exchange rate for the German euro would be parity with the dollar, but for Spain and Italy it would be $1-00 = Euro 1-75 or more.
It's implementation was a rushed decision by a bunch of politicos desperate to leave a mark.
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It is pressing, because without the political union and fiscal transfers/sharing of debt, the single currency/Eurozone remains vulnerable to the shocks described in them link I posted above - which could be existential. Bottom line is they should have done it the other way round, but they can't change that now.rjsterry said:
Maybe now. Three of the States are literally named after the French and English monarchs, while New York was founded as New Amsterdam. The US has had a nearly two centuries head start even if the EU federalised tomorrow, including an extremely bloody civil war over the terms of the union. And I think it's pretty significant that so many Americans define themselves by which other bit of the world they or their predecessors emigrated from. Give the Macrons and Junckers another 150 years and let's reassess. In the immediate future it's not a pressing issue one way or the other.Stevo_666 said:
The US states have a lot less differences thsn the states of Europe, as mentioned above. Hence the upward battle that EU federalist politicians have in forcing them together.rjsterry said:
When I first read it I thought he was talking about the different languages, cultural identities, and centuries of history that had gone into forming the US. Then I realised DB thinks they're all the same.pblakeney said:
Texans have as much in common with Californians as the English do with the French. The language may be similar, but it is different in tone and culturally.Dorset_Boy said:The difference you failed to spot with the USA is the differnt languages, cultural identities, and centuries of history...
Some of the Eurocrats realise this. Hence the push towards ever closer union etc. No thanks..."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
You seem to be arguing as though we are still a member.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
No, I'm pointing out the dilemma the EU faces on this. I notice you didn't disagree with what I posted.rjsterry said:You seem to be arguing as though we are still a member.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
The argument, is it not, that the single currency exaggerated the gap between top performers and low performers, as the top nations enjoy a more competitive currency relative to their economy and the worse performers get hit by a less competitive currency relative to their economy.Dorset_Boy said:
Sorry Rick, what's the context? It's unclear.rick_chasey said:well done - so remind me why Brexiters feel it’s so bad the UK takes advantage of that?
But I don’t think Brexiters care about Europe doing well or badly; and surely the U.K. would have benefitted from a more competitive currency?
So why do Brexiters always list this as some terrible affliction?
It’s not like they’re also proposing doing the same for the South East & the rest of the UK where the same phenomenon exists.0 -
I'd suggest that it is seen as a prime reason for not having further rushed integration, and an example of a part of 'The Project' has been a failure for a great many though a success for a few.rick_chasey said:
The argument, is it not, that the single currency exaggerated the gap between top performers and low performers, as the top nations enjoy a more competitive currency relative to their economy and the worse performers get hit by a less competitive currency relative to their economy.Dorset_Boy said:
Sorry Rick, what's the context? It's unclear.rick_chasey said:well done - so remind me why Brexiters feel it’s so bad the UK takes advantage of that?
But I don’t think Brexiters care about Europe doing well or badly; and surely the U.K. would have benefitted from a more competitive currency?
So why do Brexiters always list this as some terrible affliction?
It’s not like they’re also proposing doing the same for the South East & the rest of the UK where the same phenomenon exists.
As a major trading partner, surely Brexiteers would want a successful EU economy, so perhaps you thinking Brexiteers don't care is actually your own imaginative nonsense?!
Many who seem to be labelled Brexiteers actually voted to remain, but recognise the EU has massive issues to address, (and would have preferred to try to make changes from within for the good of all) , but also recognise the position we now find ourselves in, whether you, and other remoaners, like it or not.
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As you said, it's done now, and aside from a minority of politicians there's no great enthusiasm for further integration, so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues.Stevo_666 said:
No, I'm pointing out the dilemma the EU faces on this. I notice you didn't disagree with what I posted.rjsterry said:You seem to be arguing as though we are still a member.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Eh? Address the argument.Dorset_Boy said:
I'd suggest that it is seen as a prime reason for not having further rushed integration, and an example of a part of 'The Project' has been a failure for a great many though a success for a few.rick_chasey said:
The argument, is it not, that the single currency exaggerated the gap between top performers and low performers, as the top nations enjoy a more competitive currency relative to their economy and the worse performers get hit by a less competitive currency relative to their economy.Dorset_Boy said:
Sorry Rick, what's the context? It's unclear.rick_chasey said:well done - so remind me why Brexiters feel it’s so bad the UK takes advantage of that?
But I don’t think Brexiters care about Europe doing well or badly; and surely the U.K. would have benefitted from a more competitive currency?
So why do Brexiters always list this as some terrible affliction?
It’s not like they’re also proposing doing the same for the South East & the rest of the UK where the same phenomenon exists.
As a major trading partner, surely Brexiteers would want a successful EU economy, so perhaps you thinking Brexiteers don't care is actually your own imaginative nonsense?!
Many who seem to be labelled Brexiteers actually voted to remain, but recognise the EU has massive issues to address, (and would have preferred to try to make changes from within for the good of all) , but also recognise the position we now find ourselves in, whether you, and other remoaners, like it or not.
Would the U.K. have benefited from the single currency issue, yes or no?
(Hint, yes, in the same way Germany has).
And regarding those “massive” issues - what are they and how are they different to the issues any govt faces?
I’m not saying it’s some kind of utopia but the “massive problems” people mention are never well articulated - particularly versus the problems each nation has.
Eg Greek problems were of their own making primarily.
And that’s before you examine the obvious every day benefits of being part of a big single market.0 -
And therein lies the problem. No great enthusiasm for it to be done, but it need to be done to fix the problem.rjsterry said:
As you said, it's done now, and aside from a minority of politicians there's no great enthusiasm for further integration, so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues.Stevo_666 said:
No, I'm pointing out the dilemma the EU faces on this. I notice you didn't disagree with what I posted.rjsterry said:You seem to be arguing as though we are still a member.
Quote from my IMF link above"
"Without some degree of fiscal union, the region will continue to face existential risks that policymakers should not ignore.""I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Nope, Germany benefits at least in part because it is a net exporter and we are not.rick_chasey said:
Would the U.K. have benefited from the single currency issue, yes or no?
(Hint, yes, in the same way Germany has).
Aside from that, how would the inability to set our own interest rates or have our exchange rate flex to suit economic conditions benefit the UK?
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Well said DB.Dorset_Boy said:
I'd suggest that it is seen as a prime reason for not having further rushed integration, and an example of a part of 'The Project' has been a failure for a great many though a success for a few.rick_chasey said:
The argument, is it not, that the single currency exaggerated the gap between top performers and low performers, as the top nations enjoy a more competitive currency relative to their economy and the worse performers get hit by a less competitive currency relative to their economy.Dorset_Boy said:
Sorry Rick, what's the context? It's unclear.rick_chasey said:well done - so remind me why Brexiters feel it’s so bad the UK takes advantage of that?
But I don’t think Brexiters care about Europe doing well or badly; and surely the U.K. would have benefitted from a more competitive currency?
So why do Brexiters always list this as some terrible affliction?
It’s not like they’re also proposing doing the same for the South East & the rest of the UK where the same phenomenon exists.
As a major trading partner, surely Brexiteers would want a successful EU economy, so perhaps you thinking Brexiteers don't care is actually your own imaginative nonsense?!
Many who seem to be labelled Brexiteers actually voted to remain, but recognise the EU has massive issues to address, (and would have preferred to try to make changes from within for the good of all) , but also recognise the position we now find ourselves in, whether you, and other remoaners, like it or not."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I understood the first time. "... so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues."Stevo_666 said:
And therein lies the problem. No great enthusiasm for it to be done, but it need to be done to fix the problem.rjsterry said:
As you said, it's done now, and aside from a minority of politicians there's no great enthusiasm for further integration, so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues.Stevo_666 said:
No, I'm pointing out the dilemma the EU faces on this. I notice you didn't disagree with what I posted.rjsterry said:You seem to be arguing as though we are still a member.
Quote from my IMF link above"
"Without some degree of fiscal union, the region will continue to face existential risks that policymakers should not ignore."
Either they'll succeed, or they won't but we've given up any opportunity to influence that.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
The mitigation is as above - fiscal union etc. Which is very difficult given the lack of appetite by many politicians and most voters as you have said. What other ways to mitigate this rather fundamental problem can you see?rjsterry said:
I understood the first time. "... so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues."Stevo_666 said:
And therein lies the problem. No great enthusiasm for it to be done, but it need to be done to fix the problem.rjsterry said:
As you said, it's done now, and aside from a minority of politicians there's no great enthusiasm for further integration, so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues.Stevo_666 said:
No, I'm pointing out the dilemma the EU faces on this. I notice you didn't disagree with what I posted.rjsterry said:You seem to be arguing as though we are still a member.
Quote from my IMF link above"
"Without some degree of fiscal union, the region will continue to face existential risks that policymakers should not ignore."
Either they'll succeed, or they won't but we've given up any opportunity to influence that.
As you say, it's not our problem any more. But it does beg the question what form the EU will take in the longer term, especially for those who are thinking further ahead to a 'rejoin' campaign. Only time will tell..."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Now that makes sense. Wishing the EU does badly or implodes to reduce or eliminate the possibility of rejoining.Stevo_666 said:
The mitigation is as above - fiscal union etc. Which is very difficult given the lack of appetite by many politicians and most voters as you have said. What other ways to mitigate this rather fundamental problem can you see?rjsterry said:
I understood the first time. "... so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues."Stevo_666 said:
And therein lies the problem. No great enthusiasm for it to be done, but it need to be done to fix the problem.rjsterry said:
As you said, it's done now, and aside from a minority of politicians there's no great enthusiasm for further integration, so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues.Stevo_666 said:
No, I'm pointing out the dilemma the EU faces on this. I notice you didn't disagree with what I posted.rjsterry said:You seem to be arguing as though we are still a member.
Quote from my IMF link above"
"Without some degree of fiscal union, the region will continue to face existential risks that policymakers should not ignore."
Either they'll succeed, or they won't but we've given up any opportunity to influence that.
As you say, it's not our problem any more. But it does beg the question what form the EU will take in the longer term, especially for those who are thinking further ahead to a 'rejoin' campaign. Only time will tell...0 -
Where do I say I wish that happens?surrey_commuter said:
Now that makes sense. Wishing the EU does badly or implodes to reduce or eliminate the possibility of rejoining.Stevo_666 said:
The mitigation is as above - fiscal union etc. Which is very difficult given the lack of appetite by many politicians and most voters as you have said. What other ways to mitigate this rather fundamental problem can you see?rjsterry said:
I understood the first time. "... so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues."Stevo_666 said:
And therein lies the problem. No great enthusiasm for it to be done, but it need to be done to fix the problem.rjsterry said:
As you said, it's done now, and aside from a minority of politicians there's no great enthusiasm for further integration, so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues.Stevo_666 said:
No, I'm pointing out the dilemma the EU faces on this. I notice you didn't disagree with what I posted.rjsterry said:You seem to be arguing as though we are still a member.
Quote from my IMF link above"
"Without some degree of fiscal union, the region will continue to face existential risks that policymakers should not ignore."
Either they'll succeed, or they won't but we've given up any opportunity to influence that.
As you say, it's not our problem any more. But it does beg the question what form the EU will take in the longer term, especially for those who are thinking further ahead to a 'rejoin' campaign. Only time will tell..."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
H
I do not think you wish the UK to rejoin the EUStevo_666 said:
Where do I say I wish that happens?surrey_commuter said:
Now that makes sense. Wishing the EU does badly or implodes to reduce or eliminate the possibility of rejoining.Stevo_666 said:
The mitigation is as above - fiscal union etc. Which is very difficult given the lack of appetite by many politicians and most voters as you have said. What other ways to mitigate this rather fundamental problem can you see?rjsterry said:
I understood the first time. "... so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues."Stevo_666 said:
And therein lies the problem. No great enthusiasm for it to be done, but it need to be done to fix the problem.rjsterry said:
As you said, it's done now, and aside from a minority of politicians there's no great enthusiasm for further integration, so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues.Stevo_666 said:
No, I'm pointing out the dilemma the EU faces on this. I notice you didn't disagree with what I posted.rjsterry said:You seem to be arguing as though we are still a member.
Quote from my IMF link above"
"Without some degree of fiscal union, the region will continue to face existential risks that policymakers should not ignore."
Either they'll succeed, or they won't but we've given up any opportunity to influence that.
As you say, it's not our problem any more. But it does beg the question what form the EU will take in the longer term, especially for those who are thinking further ahead to a 'rejoin' campaign. Only time will tell...0 -
So I didn't say it. Thankssurrey_commuter said:H
I do not think you wish the UK to rejoin the EUStevo_666 said:
Where do I say I wish that happens?surrey_commuter said:
Now that makes sense. Wishing the EU does badly or implodes to reduce or eliminate the possibility of rejoining.Stevo_666 said:
The mitigation is as above - fiscal union etc. Which is very difficult given the lack of appetite by many politicians and most voters as you have said. What other ways to mitigate this rather fundamental problem can you see?rjsterry said:
I understood the first time. "... so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues."Stevo_666 said:
And therein lies the problem. No great enthusiasm for it to be done, but it need to be done to fix the problem.rjsterry said:
As you said, it's done now, and aside from a minority of politicians there's no great enthusiasm for further integration, so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues.Stevo_666 said:
No, I'm pointing out the dilemma the EU faces on this. I notice you didn't disagree with what I posted.rjsterry said:You seem to be arguing as though we are still a member.
Quote from my IMF link above"
"Without some degree of fiscal union, the region will continue to face existential risks that policymakers should not ignore."
Either they'll succeed, or they won't but we've given up any opportunity to influence that.
As you say, it's not our problem any more. But it does beg the question what form the EU will take in the longer term, especially for those who are thinking further ahead to a 'rejoin' campaign. Only time will tell...
I'll see how things go post Brexit and make my own assessment."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I'm confused. When the pound was tanking post-Brexit you talked it up as some wonderful result.Stevo_666 said:
Nope, Germany benefits at least in part because it is a net exporter and we are not.rick_chasey said:
Would the U.K. have benefited from the single currency issue, yes or no?
(Hint, yes, in the same way Germany has).
Aside from that, how would the inability to set our own interest rates or have our exchange rate flex to suit economic conditions benefit the UK?
What's resulted in the change of tune?0 -
I wondered where this post ended up.
Wrong thread!rick_chasey said:If it was such a good deal, why, within a month of passing it in parliament is the govt looking into ways to circumvent it?
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I thought we were joking.Stevo_666 said:
So I didn't say it. Thankssurrey_commuter said:H
I do not think you wish the UK to rejoin the EUStevo_666 said:
Where do I say I wish that happens?surrey_commuter said:
Now that makes sense. Wishing the EU does badly or implodes to reduce or eliminate the possibility of rejoining.Stevo_666 said:
The mitigation is as above - fiscal union etc. Which is very difficult given the lack of appetite by many politicians and most voters as you have said. What other ways to mitigate this rather fundamental problem can you see?rjsterry said:
I understood the first time. "... so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues."Stevo_666 said:
And therein lies the problem. No great enthusiasm for it to be done, but it need to be done to fix the problem.rjsterry said:
As you said, it's done now, and aside from a minority of politicians there's no great enthusiasm for further integration, so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues.Stevo_666 said:
No, I'm pointing out the dilemma the EU faces on this. I notice you didn't disagree with what I posted.rjsterry said:You seem to be arguing as though we are still a member.
Quote from my IMF link above"
"Without some degree of fiscal union, the region will continue to face existential risks that policymakers should not ignore."
Either they'll succeed, or they won't but we've given up any opportunity to influence that.
As you say, it's not our problem any more. But it does beg the question what form the EU will take in the longer term, especially for those who are thinking further ahead to a 'rejoin' campaign. Only time will tell...
I'll see how things go post Brexit and make my own assessment.
You misunderstood my original post
Now that makes sense. Wishing the EU does badly or implodes to reduce or eliminate the possibility of rejoining0 -
Not really my area of expertise, but I'm sure it is not beyond the wit of man to find other ways to reduce the economic disparities within the 27. Maybe more usefully than building sledging hills in Hungary, though.Stevo_666 said:
The mitigation is as above - fiscal union etc. Which is very difficult given the lack of appetite by many politicians and most voters as you have said. What other ways to mitigate this rather fundamental problem can you see?rjsterry said:
I understood the first time. "... so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues."Stevo_666 said:
And therein lies the problem. No great enthusiasm for it to be done, but it need to be done to fix the problem.rjsterry said:
As you said, it's done now, and aside from a minority of politicians there's no great enthusiasm for further integration, so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues.Stevo_666 said:
No, I'm pointing out the dilemma the EU faces on this. I notice you didn't disagree with what I posted.rjsterry said:You seem to be arguing as though we are still a member.
Quote from my IMF link above"
"Without some degree of fiscal union, the region will continue to face existential risks that policymakers should not ignore."
Either they'll succeed, or they won't but we've given up any opportunity to influence that.
As you say, it's not our problem any more. But it does beg the question what form the EU will take in the longer term, especially for those who are thinking further ahead to a 'rejoin' campaign. Only time will tell...1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Well yes, the theory on paper is that the 4 freedoms over the long term will help reduce the gap, as it makes it easier to allocate labour and capital more efficiently.rjsterry said:
Not really my area of expertise, but I'm sure it is not beyond the wit of man to find other ways to reduce the economic disparities within the 27. Maybe more usefully than building sledging hills in Hungary, though.Stevo_666 said:
The mitigation is as above - fiscal union etc. Which is very difficult given the lack of appetite by many politicians and most voters as you have said. What other ways to mitigate this rather fundamental problem can you see?rjsterry said:
I understood the first time. "... so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues."Stevo_666 said:
And therein lies the problem. No great enthusiasm for it to be done, but it need to be done to fix the problem.rjsterry said:
As you said, it's done now, and aside from a minority of politicians there's no great enthusiasm for further integration, so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues.Stevo_666 said:
No, I'm pointing out the dilemma the EU faces on this. I notice you didn't disagree with what I posted.rjsterry said:You seem to be arguing as though we are still a member.
Quote from my IMF link above"
"Without some degree of fiscal union, the region will continue to face existential risks that policymakers should not ignore."
Either they'll succeed, or they won't but we've given up any opportunity to influence that.
As you say, it's not our problem any more. But it does beg the question what form the EU will take in the longer term, especially for those who are thinking further ahead to a 'rejoin' campaign. Only time will tell...
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Did I?rick_chasey said:
I'm confused. When the pound was tanking post-Brexit you talked it up as some wonderful result.Stevo_666 said:
Nope, Germany benefits at least in part because it is a net exporter and we are not.rick_chasey said:
Would the U.K. have benefited from the single currency issue, yes or no?
(Hint, yes, in the same way Germany has).
Aside from that, how would the inability to set our own interest rates or have our exchange rate flex to suit economic conditions benefit the UK?
What's resulted in the change of tune?
However that seems to be a deflection from the point here. What are your thoughts on my post above?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I took that to mean you thought I was wishing that to happen...was that right, or care to explain what you meant?surrey_commuter said:
I thought we were joking.Stevo_666 said:
So I didn't say it. Thankssurrey_commuter said:H
I do not think you wish the UK to rejoin the EUStevo_666 said:
Where do I say I wish that happens?surrey_commuter said:
Now that makes sense. Wishing the EU does badly or implodes to reduce or eliminate the possibility of rejoining.Stevo_666 said:
The mitigation is as above - fiscal union etc. Which is very difficult given the lack of appetite by many politicians and most voters as you have said. What other ways to mitigate this rather fundamental problem can you see?rjsterry said:
I understood the first time. "... so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues."Stevo_666 said:
And therein lies the problem. No great enthusiasm for it to be done, but it need to be done to fix the problem.rjsterry said:
As you said, it's done now, and aside from a minority of politicians there's no great enthusiasm for further integration, so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues.Stevo_666 said:
No, I'm pointing out the dilemma the EU faces on this. I notice you didn't disagree with what I posted.rjsterry said:You seem to be arguing as though we are still a member.
Quote from my IMF link above"
"Without some degree of fiscal union, the region will continue to face existential risks that policymakers should not ignore."
Either they'll succeed, or they won't but we've given up any opportunity to influence that.
As you say, it's not our problem any more. But it does beg the question what form the EU will take in the longer term, especially for those who are thinking further ahead to a 'rejoin' campaign. Only time will tell...
I'll see how things go post Brexit and make my own assessment.
You misunderstood my original post
Now that makes sense. Wishing the EU does badly or implodes to reduce or eliminate the possibility of rejoining"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
It would appear not, as you seem to be missing the point here. Unless they go for proper fiscal and political integration, the EU will almost certainly face major issues in future. Other ways of redistributing the pie may close the gap, but the risk is that the pie is rather smaller unless they fix the underlying problem.rjsterry said:
Not really my area of expertise, but I'm sure it is not beyond the wit of man to find other ways to reduce the economic disparities within the 27. Maybe more usefully than building sledging hills in Hungary, though.Stevo_666 said:
The mitigation is as above - fiscal union etc. Which is very difficult given the lack of appetite by many politicians and most voters as you have said. What other ways to mitigate this rather fundamental problem can you see?rjsterry said:
I understood the first time. "... so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues."Stevo_666 said:
And therein lies the problem. No great enthusiasm for it to be done, but it need to be done to fix the problem.rjsterry said:
As you said, it's done now, and aside from a minority of politicians there's no great enthusiasm for further integration, so they'll have to find other ways of mitigating those issues.Stevo_666 said:
No, I'm pointing out the dilemma the EU faces on this. I notice you didn't disagree with what I posted.rjsterry said:You seem to be arguing as though we are still a member.
Quote from my IMF link above"
"Without some degree of fiscal union, the region will continue to face existential risks that policymakers should not ignore."
Either they'll succeed, or they won't but we've given up any opportunity to influence that.
As you say, it's not our problem any more. But it does beg the question what form the EU will take in the longer term, especially for those who are thinking further ahead to a 'rejoin' campaign. Only time will tell...
Link re-posted for reference.
https://blogs.imf.org/2018/02/21/the-euro-area-needs-a-fiscal-union/"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I think if we take a UK perspective, it wouldn't have felt much heat being part of the single currency; it would have come out fairly well.Stevo_666 said:
Did I?rick_chasey said:
I'm confused. When the pound was tanking post-Brexit you talked it up as some wonderful result.Stevo_666 said:
Nope, Germany benefits at least in part because it is a net exporter and we are not.rick_chasey said:
Would the U.K. have benefited from the single currency issue, yes or no?
(Hint, yes, in the same way Germany has).
Aside from that, how would the inability to set our own interest rates or have our exchange rate flex to suit economic conditions benefit the UK?
What's resulted in the change of tune?
However that seems to be a deflection from the point here. What are your thoughts on my post above?
Obviously it would make Brexit a non-starter so perhaps you would disagree with that.
The lack of fiscal levers is a challenge for the EU, but not enormously insurmountable. It's up to the individual nation states to be co-ordinated in their fiscal policy even if they had a central pot and that won't change. I have been and continue to be very critical of German obsession with austerity and avoiding borrowing, even when the bund is yielding negatively. I kinda feel the UK's presence in that debate would really help balance that view within Europe, so it is a shame that voice won't be heard.
I really think the downside of being part of the Euro/EU was and is overplayed; Greece suffered primarily because of terrible domestic decision making. The clear up was probably more painful than it needed to be because of EU (German) politics, but that was a secondary issue. FWIW, I think the UK would have been a useful counter balance to German austerity insistence had it been involved in the conversation.
I don't think anyone who has a brain thinks that Brexit is about economics; the economics don't stack up. How much emphasis you put on the negatives of EU membership presumably depends on where you sit on the EU opinion spectrum, but the fundamentals don't change; being part of it is more beneficial than not, economically speaking.
I do think that the current gov't sees leaving the EU as an opportunity to really fundamentally change the UK government structure and I genuinely think that their end game will harm most people, but we're into a different debate there.0 -
The ongoing pain for Greece would have been substantially less post 2008 if they could have devalued their currency. The same is true for Italy and Spain to a lesser extent as their problems weren't quite so huge.
Britain's debt levels in the lead up to 2008 would have put us in a position worse than Spain or Italy, but probably not quite as bad as Greece had we followed the herd's rush into the Euro.
Sterling devalued by 30+% and we could control the other measures taken to recover post 2008.
Although I'd agree that many of the reasons for Brexit are not economic ones, I'd take issue with the crystal ball you clearly have at your disposal regarding the future.
Brexit may prove to be a disaster economically, equally it may not. No one knows one way or the other.
It really isn't helpful to the debate to imply that anyone with a view that is not the same as yours 'has no brain'. I'd strongly suggest that there are a sizeable number of economically intelligent people who disagree with your views!0 -
What, that Brexit (as opposed to staying in the EU) is economically costly?Dorset_Boy said:
It really isn't helpful to the debate to imply that anyone with a view that is not the same as yours 'has no brain'. I'd strongly suggest that there are a sizeable number of economically intelligent people who disagree with your views!
No, my statement is fairly factual.0
