BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

... anti-globalisation, anti-immigrant, anti-multiculturalism.

My point is that your means of work no longer define your politics like they used to. Your attitiude to things like Brexit do.

That these views tend to be found together is not in doubt. But you seem to want to redefine what the left and right wings of politics are so that you can fit this collection of ideas into one side of this axis. I think it's a different axis altogether.

There are also quite a few pro globalisation and pro non-EU immigration Brexit voters.

mrfpb

Lisbon Treaty?
‘Article 7a
1. The Union shall develop a special relationship with neighbouring countries, aiming to establish an area of prosperity and good neighbourliness, founded on the values of the Union and characterised by close and peaceful relations based on cooperation.
2. For the purposes of paragraph 1, the Union may conclude specific agreements with the countries concerned. These agreements may contain reciprocal rights and obligations as well as the possibility of undertaking activities jointly. Their implementation shall be the subject of periodic consultation.’.

rick_chasey

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

... anti-globalisation, anti-immigrant, anti-multiculturalism.

My point is that your means of work no longer define your politics like they used to. Your attitiude to things like Brexit do.

That these views tend to be found together is not in doubt. But you seem to want to redefine what the left and right wings of politics are so that you can fit this collection of ideas into one side of this axis. I think it's a different axis altogether.

There are also quite a few pro globalisation and pro non-EU immigration Brexit voters.

I don't think they're as numerous as you think they are.

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

rick_chasey said:

... anti-globalisation, anti-immigrant, anti-multiculturalism.

My point is that your means of work no longer define your politics like they used to. Your attitiude to things like Brexit do.

That these views tend to be found together is not in doubt. But you seem to want to redefine what the left and right wings of politics are so that you can fit this collection of ideas into one side of this axis. I think it's a different axis altogether.

There are also quite a few pro globalisation and pro non-EU immigration Brexit voters.

I don't think they're as numerous as you think they are.

Well, BoJo is one of them and having the PM in your minority group is always helpful.

Evidence of more non-EU migration is the lowering of the salary threshold for work visas..

mrfpb

bompington said:

rick_chasey said:

*actual* brexit supporters

I presume you mean "as opposed to people who post thousand of posts arguing for Brexit and firing cheap shots at Remainers but are keen to point out that they actually voted Remain"?

I'm sure me and Stevo must in some way undermine Ricks "Brexit is Right Wing" mantra/creed/fixation.

elbowloh

rick_chasey said:

So far, you've mentioned that 'northern leave voters' voted leave, but i'm not convinced they are in any modern way describable as 'left wing'; I suspect their values and their priorities broadly are not aligned with what 21st century leftism looks like.

Indeed. Just look at the UKs best selling national paper. They are decidedly working class and also decidedly right wing and Brexit supporting in outlook.

rick_chasey

mrfpb said:

bompington said:

rick_chasey said:

*actual* brexit supporters

I presume you mean "as opposed to people who post thousand of posts arguing for Brexit and firing cheap shots at Remainers but are keen to point out that they actually voted Remain"?

I'm sure me and Stevo must in some way undermine Ricks "Brexit is Right Wing" mantra/creed/fixation.

How?

tailwindhome

https://twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1230529963545300992?s=20

surrey_commuter

mrfpb said:

bompington said:

rick_chasey said:

*actual* brexit supporters

I presume you mean "as opposed to people who post thousand of posts arguing for Brexit and firing cheap shots at Remainers but are keen to point out that they actually voted Remain"?

I'm sure me and Stevo must in some way undermine Ricks "Brexit is Right Wing" mantra/creed/fixation.

You don't think Stevo is right wing?

mrfpb

I obviously should have included a wink emoji. I believe he voted Remain as he has often said so.

Stevo_666

mrfpb said:

bompington said:

rick_chasey said:

*actual* brexit supporters

I presume you mean "as opposed to people who post thousand of posts arguing for Brexit and firing cheap shots at Remainers but are keen to point out that they actually voted Remain"?

I'm sure me and Stevo must in some way undermine Ricks "Brexit is Right Wing" mantra/creed/fixation.

I'd say the Northern Brexit voters undermine it. A lot the folks I know back on Teesside were leavers but would have voted for a hat stand if it had a red rosette on it (until last December anyway when the Brexit issue swayed their vote).

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

mrfpb said:

bompington said:

rick_chasey said:

*actual* brexit supporters

I presume you mean "as opposed to people who post thousand of posts arguing for Brexit and firing cheap shots at Remainers but are keen to point out that they actually voted Remain"?

I'm sure me and Stevo must in some way undermine Ricks "Brexit is Right Wing" mantra/creed/fixation.

I'd say the Northern Brexit voters undermine it. A lot the folks I know back on Teesside were leavers but would have voted for a hat stand if it had a red rosette on it (until last December anyway when the Brexit issue swayed their vote).

But isn't that the point? They no longer trust the left wing party to represent them. Most of the Brexit supporters I know would have always been natural Labour supporters, but would definitely not identify with the current iteration of the Labour party.

mrfpb

Stevo_666 said:

mrfpb said:

bompington said:

rick_chasey said:

*actual* brexit supporters

I presume you mean "as opposed to people who post thousand of posts arguing for Brexit and firing cheap shots at Remainers but are keen to point out that they actually voted Remain"?

I'm sure me and Stevo must in some way undermine Ricks "Brexit is Right Wing" mantra/creed/fixation.

I'd say the Northern Brexit voters undermine it. A lot the folks I know back on Teesside were leavers but would have voted for a hat stand if it had a red rosette on it (until last December anyway when the Brexit issue swayed their vote).

A summary of today's posts:

Rick: Northern lefties aren't really lefties, because they voted Leave
MrFPB: Oh yes they are!
Rick: Oh no they're not!
MrFPB: Oh....

You get the gist, I think

pblakeney

Panto has started early this year. 😉

Jeremy.89

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

mrfpb said:

bompington said:

rick_chasey said:

*actual* brexit supporters

I presume you mean "as opposed to people who post thousand of posts arguing for Brexit and firing cheap shots at Remainers but are keen to point out that they actually voted Remain"?

I'm sure me and Stevo must in some way undermine Ricks "Brexit is Right Wing" mantra/creed/fixation.

I'd say the Northern Brexit voters undermine it. A lot the folks I know back on Teesside were leavers but would have voted for a hat stand if it had a red rosette on it (until last December anyway when the Brexit issue swayed their vote).

But isn't that the point? They no longer trust the left wing party to represent them. Most of the Brexit supporters I know would have always been natural Labour supporters, but would definitely not identify with the current iteration of the Labour party.

But what aspect? Arguably the Corbyn led Labour Party is far closer to the natural Labour Party than for example, Blair.

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

mrfpb said:

bompington said:

rick_chasey said:

*actual* brexit supporters

I presume you mean "as opposed to people who post thousand of posts arguing for Brexit and firing cheap shots at Remainers but are keen to point out that they actually voted Remain"?

I'm sure me and Stevo must in some way undermine Ricks "Brexit is Right Wing" mantra/creed/fixation.

I'd say the Northern Brexit voters undermine it. A lot the folks I know back on Teesside were leavers but would have voted for a hat stand if it had a red rosette on it (until last December anyway when the Brexit issue swayed their vote).

There’s no point writing stuff because people don’t read it.

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

mrfpb said:

bompington said:

rick_chasey said:

*actual* brexit supporters

I presume you mean "as opposed to people who post thousand of posts arguing for Brexit and firing cheap shots at Remainers but are keen to point out that they actually voted Remain"?

I'm sure me and Stevo must in some way undermine Ricks "Brexit is Right Wing" mantra/creed/fixation.

I'd say the Northern Brexit voters undermine it. A lot the folks I know back on Teesside were leavers but would have voted for a hat stand if it had a red rosette on it (until last December anyway when the Brexit issue swayed their vote).

But isn't that the point? They no longer trust the left wing party to represent them. Most of the Brexit supporters I know would have always been natural Labour supporters, but would definitely not identify with the current iteration of the Labour party.

It's not Rick's point. He is saying that leavers are right wing and I'm giving evidence to the contrary.

17.4m would be a lot of right wing people....

Jeremy.89

I'd almost say it's fairer to be disparaging of the 'Lexit' lot than your average right wing brexiter.

Brexit was a pretty dumb idea at the best of times, but the vague vision that some on the left seem to have regarding brexit being a step towards a socialist Republic is particularly dim witted.

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

mrfpb said:

bompington said:

rick_chasey said:

*actual* brexit supporters

I presume you mean "as opposed to people who post thousand of posts arguing for Brexit and firing cheap shots at Remainers but are keen to point out that they actually voted Remain"?

I'm sure me and Stevo must in some way undermine Ricks "Brexit is Right Wing" mantra/creed/fixation.

I'd say the Northern Brexit voters undermine it. A lot the folks I know back on Teesside were leavers but would have voted for a hat stand if it had a red rosette on it (until last December anyway when the Brexit issue swayed their vote).

But isn't that the point? They no longer trust the left wing party to represent them. Most of the Brexit supporters I know would have always been natural Labour supporters, but would definitely not identify with the current iteration of the Labour party.

It's not Rick's point. He is saying that leavers are right wing and I'm giving evidence to the contrary.

17.4m would be a lot of right wing people....

It’s fine, i often don’t read long posts either, but don’t make out you have read mine, since if you did, you’d not have written that.

bompington

Wouldn't you agree that at least half of the genius of the Leave campaign was its ability to avoid all nuance and complexity in pursuit of a powerful but simplistic message?

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

I also refuse to see Brexit as anything other than modern day right wing project.

If you disagree that's fine, but I think you're wrong about that.

I guess that's a long post by your standards Rick.

darkhairedlord

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

mrfpb said:

bompington said:

rick_chasey said:

*actual* brexit supporters

I presume you mean "as opposed to people who post thousand of posts arguing for Brexit and firing cheap shots at Remainers but are keen to point out that they actually voted Remain"?

I'm sure me and Stevo must in some way undermine Ricks "Brexit is Right Wing" mantra/creed/fixation.

I'd say the Northern Brexit voters undermine it. A lot the folks I know back on Teesside were leavers but would have voted for a hat stand if it had a red rosette on it (until last December anyway when the Brexit issue swayed their vote).

But isn't that the point? They no longer trust the left wing party to represent them. Most of the Brexit supporters I know would have always been natural Labour supporters, but would definitely not identify with the current iteration of the Labour party.

It's not Rick's point. He is saying that leavers are right wing and I'm giving evidence to the contrary.

17.4m would be a lot of right wing people....

The real rot set in wrt workers turning against the eu with Gordon brown. He was using loose migration , not just eu, too boost the labour supply and suppress wage demands and inflation.

rick_chasey

I think the genius was convincing a prime minister that a topic that, according to all polls, didn’t really matter to anyone, should be voted on in a ref.

If you ask people to have and opinion, they will offer one. Doesn’t mean they feel strongly about it.

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

mrfpb said:

bompington said:

rick_chasey said:

*actual* brexit supporters

I presume you mean "as opposed to people who post thousand of posts arguing for Brexit and firing cheap shots at Remainers but are keen to point out that they actually voted Remain"?

I'm sure me and Stevo must in some way undermine Ricks "Brexit is Right Wing" mantra/creed/fixation.

I'd say the Northern Brexit voters undermine it. A lot the folks I know back on Teesside were leavers but would have voted for a hat stand if it had a red rosette on it (until last December anyway when the Brexit issue swayed their vote).

There’s no point writing stuff because people don’t read it.

Be my guest...

rick_chasey

Meanwhile in Poland judges are being physically attacked in courtrooms...

Longshot

Our party politics are being played in two dimensions. The world has more.

briantrumpet

Longshot said:

Our party politics are being played in two dimensions. The world has more.

Populists have learnt that division into 'us' and 'them' can get them into into power and able upend constitutional norms with 40% or less of the population's backing. Part of the way they do it is to cover up all the subtleties and shades of opinion with simplistic slogans.

TheBigBean

Still no agreement on EU budget. I am wondering whether they will unite around the idea that the obvious solution is for the UK to pay the difference.

rick_chasey

TheBigBean said:

Still no agreement on EU budget. I am wondering whether they will unite around the idea that the obvious solution is for the UK to pay the difference.

That would be very disappointing, but I have not seen any reporting to suggest that?

I thought it was the “frugal four” , Netherlands, Austria, Denmark, Sweden who already feel they pay enough and want to cap the contributions to 1%, and the rest, including France & Germany.

Particularly as the Germans and French, in different ways, want to really use the EU to project internationally as the counterweight to the US/Chinese superpower, which is difficult without money to spend.

Stevo_666

It's behind a paywall, so have cut and pasted:
"Brexit cannot be used as an excuse to cut the EU’s trillion euro budget or limit the European Project, Emmanuel Macron warned his fellow leaders at an acrimonious summit in Brussels on Thursday night.

Heads of state and government are bitterly divided over how to compensate for the loss of the €75 billion (£63 bn) Britain would have paid over seven years from 2021 if the UK was still a member state.

“It is unacceptable to think that because the UK is no longer part of the EU, we need to give up on our ambitions,” Mr Macron said as he arrived at the first summit since the UK left the bloc on January 31.

The Brexit gap comes as the EU struggles to decide how to finance challenges including climate change, migration, the development of its poorer regions and its lucrative system of agricultural subsidies.

“For me there is no compromise if we’re compromising European ambitions,” said the French president, who is resisting cuts to the Common Agricultural Policy.

The French president’s suggestion that insisting on rebates or cuts to the new EU budget was anti-European angered other leaders, who appeared resigned to the tough negotiations ending in failure. Talks are expected to continue into Friday and possibly Saturday.

“We represent the interests of our taxpayers here,” Sebastian Kurz, Austria’s chancellor, said. “One is not anti-European if you want to save money.”

Mark Rutte, the prime minister of the Netherlands, said he would not accept a compromise proposal put forward by Charles Michel, the president of the European Council.

“I don't know what I will have to discuss,” he said. “I cannot sign up to this proposal. I brought a new biography of Chopin with me. I'll read a bit. What else is there to do?”

The “Frugal Four” of the Netherlands, Austria, Sweden and Denmark, who are tacitly supported by Germany, want the EU budget to be capped at 1 per cent of Gross National Income and have demanded a permanent rebate system.

Margaret Thatcher secured the British rebate to the EU budget 36 years ago, which led to rebates for some EU countries, but not France, which wants them ended after Brexit.

“The UK might have gone but there are at least four Thatchers in the EU now,” said one diplomat.

Germany faces much larger increases in net EU payments than France. "Germany is not content with the current state of negotiations," Angela Merkel said.

The “Friends of Cohesion”, a bloc of 17 countries including Bulgaria, Croatia, Italy, Poland, Portugal, Romania, and Spain, opposes proposed cuts to cohesion funding, which is money to develop poorer EU regions.

There are further divides over a push to tie EU funding to respect for the rule of law, which is opposed by countries such as Hungary."

Interesting words from Macron in the first paragraph, aside from the size of the spend. 'The Project' comes above all else...