BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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As I said above, pity it didn't stay as just a trading bloc/economic cooperation arrangement as then we possibly wouldn't be having this conversation.rick_chasey said:
Biggest single market in the world and home of a number of the big car manufacturers.Stevo_666 said:
Globally its a fact that there are different standards and will be in future. Not sure the rest of the World is falling over itself to fall in line with a trading bloc that represents approx 15% of global GDP (nearer 13% this time next week). And falling after that given relative growth rates.rjsterry said:Regardless of whether people think the standards are better, it's not economic to manufacture to several different standards.
It's even got a name. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect
Have a look also at the REACH regs for chemicals; aviation regs; and data privacy regs.
Car industry shot itself in the foot by lying about emissions.
However, decline or not, the industry will be around for a while and it was U.K. policy for the last decade was to support car making in the U.K. and it was broadly successful.
Brexiters themselves have admitted that Brexit has put pay to that policy and success."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
And as for the single market point in relation to the auto industry, well that should mean you can sell the same product anywhere in that market. So seems a bit strange they have to put the steering wheel on different sides depending on what part of that 'single' market they are selling to. Maybe it's just a series of markets with lower barriers between those markets than elsewhere?
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo's point is correct. I am one of the many voters who would not have voted to leave had the EU remained a trading blockkingstongraham said:
There's no alternative reality to show that.Stevo_666 said:
'Trading bloc' is the key phrase here.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
It's easy to think that Europe is the only thing that matters for some who get engrossed in this thread. As before, just trying to lift people's hesds up and show them that there's a big wide world beyond this continent.briantrumpet said:
And you seem to be continuing your habit of downplaying the EU's significance at any opportunity.Stevo_666 said:
Exactly the percentage as nowbriantrumpet said:
Can you just remind us what % of global GDP the UK will be by this time next week?Stevo_666 said:
Globally its a fact that there are different standards and will be in future. Not sure the rest of the World is falling over itself to fall in line with a trading bloc that represents approx 15% of global GDP (nearer 13% this time next week). And falling after that given relative growth rates.rjsterry said:Regardless of whether people think the standards are better, it's not economic to manufacture to several different standards.
It's even got a name. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect
Have a look also at the REACH regs for chemicals; aviation regs; and data privacy regs.
But we're not claiming that everyone copies us on the standards front. As ever, just putting things into a global perspective for the little Europeans.
Of course there is, but you could equally have said "The EU is still in the top three global trading blocs despite losing the UK's 2% share of global GDP". Whether or not you like the EU as a concept (your posts give the distinct impression you don't), recognising their continuing importance would seem to be sensible.
As I've said before, it The EU had stuck to being a trading block rather than over-reaching itself with its ever closer integration, it wouldn't be losing that 2%.0 -
I know other quite a few people who also said that they would not have voted to leave if the EU had remained as just a trading bloc.coopster_the_1st said:
Stevo's point is correct. I am one of the many voters who would not have voted to leave had the EU remained a trading blockkingstongraham said:
There's no alternative reality to show that.Stevo_666 said:
'Trading bloc' is the key phrase here.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
It's easy to think that Europe is the only thing that matters for some who get engrossed in this thread. As before, just trying to lift people's hesds up and show them that there's a big wide world beyond this continent.briantrumpet said:
And you seem to be continuing your habit of downplaying the EU's significance at any opportunity.Stevo_666 said:
Exactly the percentage as nowbriantrumpet said:
Can you just remind us what % of global GDP the UK will be by this time next week?Stevo_666 said:
Globally its a fact that there are different standards and will be in future. Not sure the rest of the World is falling over itself to fall in line with a trading bloc that represents approx 15% of global GDP (nearer 13% this time next week). And falling after that given relative growth rates.rjsterry said:Regardless of whether people think the standards are better, it's not economic to manufacture to several different standards.
It's even got a name. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect
Have a look also at the REACH regs for chemicals; aviation regs; and data privacy regs.
But we're not claiming that everyone copies us on the standards front. As ever, just putting things into a global perspective for the little Europeans.
Of course there is, but you could equally have said "The EU is still in the top three global trading blocs despite losing the UK's 2% share of global GDP". Whether or not you like the EU as a concept (your posts give the distinct impression you don't), recognising their continuing importance would seem to be sensible.
As I've said before, it The EU had stuck to being a trading block rather than over-reaching itself with its ever closer integration, it wouldn't be losing that 2%."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Why would I bother? - you are not hear to listen to reasonStevo_666 said:
I just asked you for some evidence. Want to show me?surrey_commuter said:
The world really is not that binaryStevo_666 said:
No evidence then.surrey_commuter said:
The next 16 words I wrote told you why - there is lots of evidence but as you are so blinded by your hatred of all things EU I will leave you to find it.Stevo_666 said:
Why do they think that?surrey_commuter said:
Many believe that EU standards/regulations are effectively world standards/regulations
Is there evidence to support that view, or is just a perception because it is the EU and so they must be the best?
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Or to experience poor spelling, or hypocrisysurrey_commuter said:
Why would I bother? - you are not hear to listen to reasonStevo_666 said:
I just asked you for some evidence. Want to show me?surrey_commuter said:
The world really is not that binaryStevo_666 said:
No evidence then.surrey_commuter said:
The next 16 words I wrote told you why - there is lots of evidence but as you are so blinded by your hatred of all things EU I will leave you to find it.Stevo_666 said:
Why do they think that?surrey_commuter said:
Many believe that EU standards/regulations are effectively world standards/regulations
Is there evidence to support that view, or is just a perception because it is the EU and so they must be the best? "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
He has a point. You’re still arguing stuff I have refuted with evidence 5 times and you still claim to not have read it.Stevo_666 said:
Or to experience poor spelling, or hypocrisysurrey_commuter said:
Why would I bother? - you are not hear to listen to reasonStevo_666 said:
I just asked you for some evidence. Want to show me?surrey_commuter said:
The world really is not that binaryStevo_666 said:
No evidence then.surrey_commuter said:
The next 16 words I wrote told you why - there is lots of evidence but as you are so blinded by your hatred of all things EU I will leave you to find it.Stevo_666 said:
Why do they think that?surrey_commuter said:
Many believe that EU standards/regulations are effectively world standards/regulations
Is there evidence to support that view, or is just a perception because it is the EU and so they must be the best?0 -
Not having the ref would have had the same result.Stevo_666 said:
As I said above, pity it didn't stay as just a trading bloc/economic cooperation arrangement as then we possibly wouldn't be having this conversation.rick_chasey said:
Biggest single market in the world and home of a number of the big car manufacturers.Stevo_666 said:
Globally its a fact that there are different standards and will be in future. Not sure the rest of the World is falling over itself to fall in line with a trading bloc that represents approx 15% of global GDP (nearer 13% this time next week). And falling after that given relative growth rates.rjsterry said:Regardless of whether people think the standards are better, it's not economic to manufacture to several different standards.
It's even got a name. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect
Have a look also at the REACH regs for chemicals; aviation regs; and data privacy regs.
Car industry shot itself in the foot by lying about emissions.
However, decline or not, the industry will be around for a while and it was U.K. policy for the last decade was to support car making in the U.K. and it was broadly successful.
Brexiters themselves have admitted that Brexit has put pay to that policy and success.0 -
Where's that then?rick_chasey said:
He has a point. You’re still arguing stuff I have refuted with evidence 5 times and you still claim to not have read it.Stevo_666 said:
Or to experience poor spelling, or hypocrisysurrey_commuter said:
Why would I bother? - you are not hear to listen to reasonStevo_666 said:
I just asked you for some evidence. Want to show me?surrey_commuter said:
The world really is not that binaryStevo_666 said:
No evidence then.surrey_commuter said:
The next 16 words I wrote told you why - there is lots of evidence but as you are so blinded by your hatred of all things EU I will leave you to find it.Stevo_666 said:
Why do they think that?surrey_commuter said:
Many believe that EU standards/regulations are effectively world standards/regulations
Is there evidence to support that view, or is just a perception because it is the EU and so they must be the best?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
True, but the pressure to have the referendum was at least in part driven by the deliberate EU scope creep beyond trading cooperation. It is also a significant contributor to the rising nationalism and populism elsewhere in Europe.rick_chasey said:
Not having the ref would have had the same result.Stevo_666 said:
As I said above, pity it didn't stay as just a trading bloc/economic cooperation arrangement as then we possibly wouldn't be having this conversation.rick_chasey said:
Biggest single market in the world and home of a number of the big car manufacturers.Stevo_666 said:
Globally its a fact that there are different standards and will be in future. Not sure the rest of the World is falling over itself to fall in line with a trading bloc that represents approx 15% of global GDP (nearer 13% this time next week). And falling after that given relative growth rates.rjsterry said:Regardless of whether people think the standards are better, it's not economic to manufacture to several different standards.
It's even got a name. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect
Have a look also at the REACH regs for chemicals; aviation regs; and data privacy regs.
Car industry shot itself in the foot by lying about emissions.
However, decline or not, the industry will be around for a while and it was U.K. policy for the last decade was to support car making in the U.K. and it was broadly successful.
Brexiters themselves have admitted that Brexit has put pay to that policy and success."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo_666 said:
True, but the pressure to have the referendum was at least in part driven by the deliberate EU scope creep beyond trading cooperation. It is also a significant contributor to the rising nationalism and populism elsewhere in Europe.rick_chasey said:
Not having the ref would have had the same result.Stevo_666 said:
As I said above, pity it didn't stay as just a trading bloc/economic cooperation arrangement as then we possibly wouldn't be having this conversation.rick_chasey said:
Biggest single market in the world and home of a number of the big car manufacturers.Stevo_666 said:
Globally its a fact that there are different standards and will be in future. Not sure the rest of the World is falling over itself to fall in line with a trading bloc that represents approx 15% of global GDP (nearer 13% this time next week). And falling after that given relative growth rates.rjsterry said:Regardless of whether people think the standards are better, it's not economic to manufacture to several different standards.
It's even got a name. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect
Have a look also at the REACH regs for chemicals; aviation regs; and data privacy regs.
Car industry shot itself in the foot by lying about emissions.
However, decline or not, the industry will be around for a while and it was U.K. policy for the last decade was to support car making in the U.K. and it was broadly successful.
Brexiters themselves have admitted that Brexit has put pay to that policy and success.
Is the rise in global nationalism the EU's fault too, or is it possible that European nationalists are actually just using the EU as an excuse/target for their retrograde agenda? https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/world/2019-02-12/broken-bargain
Nationalism always needs something to push back against.0 -
Not sure about elsewhere, but there definitely seems to be a reaction against ever closer European integration and a lot of the nationalists and populists cite this as an issue for them. Whether or not their views have any merit is one thing, but regardless of that I'm pretty sure they are not all lying.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
True, but the pressure to have the referendum was at least in part driven by the deliberate EU scope creep beyond trading cooperation. It is also a significant contributor to the rising nationalism and populism elsewhere in Europe.rick_chasey said:
Not having the ref would have had the same result.Stevo_666 said:
As I said above, pity it didn't stay as just a trading bloc/economic cooperation arrangement as then we possibly wouldn't be having this conversation.rick_chasey said:
Biggest single market in the world and home of a number of the big car manufacturers.Stevo_666 said:
Globally its a fact that there are different standards and will be in future. Not sure the rest of the World is falling over itself to fall in line with a trading bloc that represents approx 15% of global GDP (nearer 13% this time next week). And falling after that given relative growth rates.rjsterry said:Regardless of whether people think the standards are better, it's not economic to manufacture to several different standards.
It's even got a name. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect
Have a look also at the REACH regs for chemicals; aviation regs; and data privacy regs.
Car industry shot itself in the foot by lying about emissions.
However, decline or not, the industry will be around for a while and it was U.K. policy for the last decade was to support car making in the U.K. and it was broadly successful.
Brexiters themselves have admitted that Brexit has put pay to that policy and success.
Is the rise in global nationalism the EU's fault too, or is it possible that European nationalists are actually just using the EU as an excuse/target for their retrograde agenda? https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/world/2019-02-12/broken-bargain
Nationalism always needs something to push back against."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo_666 said:
Not sure about elsewhere, but there definitely seems to be a reaction against ever closer European integration and a lot of the nationalists and populists cite this as an issue for them. Whether or not their views have any merit is one thing, but regardless of that I'm pretty sure they are not all lying.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
True, but the pressure to have the referendum was at least in part driven by the deliberate EU scope creep beyond trading cooperation. It is also a significant contributor to the rising nationalism and populism elsewhere in Europe.rick_chasey said:
Not having the ref would have had the same result.Stevo_666 said:
As I said above, pity it didn't stay as just a trading bloc/economic cooperation arrangement as then we possibly wouldn't be having this conversation.rick_chasey said:
Biggest single market in the world and home of a number of the big car manufacturers.Stevo_666 said:
Globally its a fact that there are different standards and will be in future. Not sure the rest of the World is falling over itself to fall in line with a trading bloc that represents approx 15% of global GDP (nearer 13% this time next week). And falling after that given relative growth rates.rjsterry said:Regardless of whether people think the standards are better, it's not economic to manufacture to several different standards.
It's even got a name. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect
Have a look also at the REACH regs for chemicals; aviation regs; and data privacy regs.
Car industry shot itself in the foot by lying about emissions.
However, decline or not, the industry will be around for a while and it was U.K. policy for the last decade was to support car making in the U.K. and it was broadly successful.
Brexiters themselves have admitted that Brexit has put pay to that policy and success.
Is the rise in global nationalism the EU's fault too, or is it possible that European nationalists are actually just using the EU as an excuse/target for their retrograde agenda? https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/world/2019-02-12/broken-bargain
Nationalism always needs something to push back against.
The general shift throughout history has been towards larger co-operative groupings, and I'm pretty sure (historians will correct me, I'm sure, if my hazy knowledge is incorrect) that the larger groupings have always been viewed with distrust by many (as is still the case in the US in certain states towards the US itself).
The distrust is understandable, to a degree. It's the deliberate misuse and amplification of that distrust by those with malign intent which is the real danger.0 -
It has, but clearly there is a logical limit and the rather large groupings we call 'countries' seem to work pretty well. Cooperation between countries is fine, but I think what many object to is further significant integration. Which ties in with my point above about the EU scope creep beyond a trading alliance and the current position.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Not sure about elsewhere, but there definitely seems to be a reaction against ever closer European integration and a lot of the nationalists and populists cite this as an issue for them. Whether or not their views have any merit is one thing, but regardless of that I'm pretty sure they are not all lying.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
True, but the pressure to have the referendum was at least in part driven by the deliberate EU scope creep beyond trading cooperation. It is also a significant contributor to the rising nationalism and populism elsewhere in Europe.rick_chasey said:
Not having the ref would have had the same result.Stevo_666 said:
As I said above, pity it didn't stay as just a trading bloc/economic cooperation arrangement as then we possibly wouldn't be having this conversation.rick_chasey said:
Biggest single market in the world and home of a number of the big car manufacturers.Stevo_666 said:
Globally its a fact that there are different standards and will be in future. Not sure the rest of the World is falling over itself to fall in line with a trading bloc that represents approx 15% of global GDP (nearer 13% this time next week). And falling after that given relative growth rates.rjsterry said:Regardless of whether people think the standards are better, it's not economic to manufacture to several different standards.
It's even got a name. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect
Have a look also at the REACH regs for chemicals; aviation regs; and data privacy regs.
Car industry shot itself in the foot by lying about emissions.
However, decline or not, the industry will be around for a while and it was U.K. policy for the last decade was to support car making in the U.K. and it was broadly successful.
Brexiters themselves have admitted that Brexit has put pay to that policy and success.
Is the rise in global nationalism the EU's fault too, or is it possible that European nationalists are actually just using the EU as an excuse/target for their retrograde agenda? https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/world/2019-02-12/broken-bargain
Nationalism always needs something to push back against.
The general shift throughout history has been towards larger co-operative groupings, and I'm pretty sure (historians will correct me, I'm sure, if my hazy knowledge is incorrect) that the larger groupings have always been viewed with distrust by many (as is still the case in the US in certain states towards the US itself).
The distrust is understandable, to a degree. It's the deliberate misuse and amplification of that distrust by those with malign intent which is the real danger."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Really? From what I can see, they're all classic cakeists. Oh we don't want the nasty EU telling us how to run our country but we'll have as much of that EU development funding as we can get our grubby hands on. Orban, Salvini and the Kaczynski brothers: are all at the same game. For sure there is some generalised anti-EU feeling in the mix, but populists are the same the world over: blame everything that's wrong on some outsider group and offer simple solutions to complex problems. See the IndyRef2 thread for one of our local examples.Stevo_666 said:
Not sure about elsewhere, but there definitely seems to be a reaction against ever closer European integration and a lot of the nationalists and populists cite this as an issue for them. Whether or not their views have any merit is one thing, but regardless of that I'm pretty sure they are not all lying.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
True, but the pressure to have the referendum was at least in part driven by the deliberate EU scope creep beyond trading cooperation. It is also a significant contributor to the rising nationalism and populism elsewhere in Europe.rick_chasey said:
Not having the ref would have had the same result.Stevo_666 said:
As I said above, pity it didn't stay as just a trading bloc/economic cooperation arrangement as then we possibly wouldn't be having this conversation.rick_chasey said:
Biggest single market in the world and home of a number of the big car manufacturers.Stevo_666 said:
Globally its a fact that there are different standards and will be in future. Not sure the rest of the World is falling over itself to fall in line with a trading bloc that represents approx 15% of global GDP (nearer 13% this time next week). And falling after that given relative growth rates.rjsterry said:Regardless of whether people think the standards are better, it's not economic to manufacture to several different standards.
It's even got a name. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect
Have a look also at the REACH regs for chemicals; aviation regs; and data privacy regs.
Car industry shot itself in the foot by lying about emissions.
However, decline or not, the industry will be around for a while and it was U.K. policy for the last decade was to support car making in the U.K. and it was broadly successful.
Brexiters themselves have admitted that Brexit has put pay to that policy and success.
Is the rise in global nationalism the EU's fault too, or is it possible that European nationalists are actually just using the EU as an excuse/target for their retrograde agenda? https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/world/2019-02-12/broken-bargain
Nationalism always needs something to push back against.
Where the EU did go wrong is in badly handling the refugee/migration crisis from North Africa (partly of Cameron and Sarkozy's making - funny that he doesn't get the stick that Blair does for Iraq) and Syria. This played right into the hands of the populists looking for an enemy on whom to blame all their countries' ills.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I think some of those people genuinely believe what they say, although clearly there are those who are doing things for their own ends etc.rjsterry said:
Really? From what I can see, they're all classic cakeists. Oh we don't want the nasty EU telling us how to run our country but we'll have as much of that EU development funding as we can get our grubby hands on. Orban, Salvini and the Kaczynski brothers: are all at the same game.Stevo_666 said:
Not sure about elsewhere, but there definitely seems to be a reaction against ever closer European integration and a lot of the nationalists and populists cite this as an issue for them. Whether or not their views have any merit is one thing, but regardless of that I'm pretty sure they are not all lying.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
True, but the pressure to have the referendum was at least in part driven by the deliberate EU scope creep beyond trading cooperation. It is also a significant contributor to the rising nationalism and populism elsewhere in Europe.rick_chasey said:
Not having the ref would have had the same result.Stevo_666 said:
As I said above, pity it didn't stay as just a trading bloc/economic cooperation arrangement as then we possibly wouldn't be having this conversation.rick_chasey said:
Biggest single market in the world and home of a number of the big car manufacturers.Stevo_666 said:
Globally its a fact that there are different standards and will be in future. Not sure the rest of the World is falling over itself to fall in line with a trading bloc that represents approx 15% of global GDP (nearer 13% this time next week). And falling after that given relative growth rates.rjsterry said:Regardless of whether people think the standards are better, it's not economic to manufacture to several different standards.
It's even got a name. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect
Have a look also at the REACH regs for chemicals; aviation regs; and data privacy regs.
Car industry shot itself in the foot by lying about emissions.
However, decline or not, the industry will be around for a while and it was U.K. policy for the last decade was to support car making in the U.K. and it was broadly successful.
Brexiters themselves have admitted that Brexit has put pay to that policy and success.
Is the rise in global nationalism the EU's fault too, or is it possible that European nationalists are actually just using the EU as an excuse/target for their retrograde agenda? https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/world/2019-02-12/broken-bargain
Nationalism always needs something to push back against.
Plenty of right-wing populists around the world: Bolsonaro and Duterte for starters, as well as the obvious Trump and Narendra Modi. Somehow I don't think we can blame their election on EU mission creep.
Also many more moderate people have genuine reservations about the slow but seemingly inexorable drift towards a 'United States of Europe'. Which was a material factor in why the UK voted to leave."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo_666 said:
I think some of those people genuinely believe what they say, although clearly there are those who are doing things for their own ends etc.rjsterry said:
Really? From what I can see, they're all classic cakeists. Oh we don't want the nasty EU telling us how to run our country but we'll have as much of that EU development funding as we can get our grubby hands on. Orban, Salvini and the Kaczynski brothers: are all at the same game.Stevo_666 said:
Not sure about elsewhere, but there definitely seems to be a reaction against ever closer European integration and a lot of the nationalists and populists cite this as an issue for them. Whether or not their views have any merit is one thing, but regardless of that I'm pretty sure they are not all lying.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
True, but the pressure to have the referendum was at least in part driven by the deliberate EU scope creep beyond trading cooperation. It is also a significant contributor to the rising nationalism and populism elsewhere in Europe.rick_chasey said:
Not having the ref would have had the same result.Stevo_666 said:
As I said above, pity it didn't stay as just a trading bloc/economic cooperation arrangement as then we possibly wouldn't be having this conversation.rick_chasey said:
Biggest single market in the world and home of a number of the big car manufacturers.Stevo_666 said:
Globally its a fact that there are different standards and will be in future. Not sure the rest of the World is falling over itself to fall in line with a trading bloc that represents approx 15% of global GDP (nearer 13% this time next week). And falling after that given relative growth rates.rjsterry said:Regardless of whether people think the standards are better, it's not economic to manufacture to several different standards.
It's even got a name. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect
Have a look also at the REACH regs for chemicals; aviation regs; and data privacy regs.
Car industry shot itself in the foot by lying about emissions.
However, decline or not, the industry will be around for a while and it was U.K. policy for the last decade was to support car making in the U.K. and it was broadly successful.
Brexiters themselves have admitted that Brexit has put pay to that policy and success.
Is the rise in global nationalism the EU's fault too, or is it possible that European nationalists are actually just using the EU as an excuse/target for their retrograde agenda? https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/world/2019-02-12/broken-bargain
Nationalism always needs something to push back against.
Plenty of right-wing populists around the world: Bolsonaro and Duterte for starters, as well as the obvious Trump and Narendra Modi. Somehow I don't think we can blame their election on EU mission creep.
Also many more moderate people have genuine reservations about the slow but seemingly inexorable drift towards a 'United States of Europe'. Which was a material factor in why the UK voted to leave.
I'm sure that some of the people who rail against 'health and safety gone mad" genuinely hold those beliefs, but also conveniently overlook the resultant dramatic decrease in workplace death and injury: they have been focused (or had their minds focused on) the relatively minor impositions on their individual freedoms by making out the "H&S police" as being draconian bullies, whilst ignoring the general good for society of not killing or maiming workers carrying out their duties. The HSE have done that by imposing themselves where they haven't always been welcome, and, I'm sure, been accused of 'mission creep'. But the results suggest that 'mission creep' has had a positive outcome, even if unpopular.
tl;dr - 'mission creep' might have positive outcomes, but it's easy to characterise it as a negative thing. FWIW - I don't argue that the EU could have done a lot better in explaining itself, and making some meaningful concessions, where it wouldn't have undermined the central aims of the EU, to some of the concerns.0 -
When I've been to France, it doesn't feel like it has got less French over the last 35 years.0
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All the various parts of integration were agreed by all the constituent nations, who are all democracies.0
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I note the change in thread title.
The Irish Government had one overriding objective in the Withdrawal Agreement phase of Brexit, namely that they would never have to implement the EU border on the island of Ireland and still protect their place in the single market.
That this has been achieved and the Brexiteer mindset still be as reflected in the thread title ("Leo having the last word because he just doesn't carry much weight") while an internal border goes up within the UK is really quite something.
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
I'm not sure where the clamour came from for this ever closer integration. To me it seemed like it was more from the EU rather than the majority of individual member states. Although as I recall, some of the member states were even asked to vote more than once on certain matters related to greater integration...presumably just to be sure?rick_chasey said:All the various parts of integration were agreed by all the constituent nations, who are all democracies.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Yeah. They had a vote, it was rejected, some concessions were made, the vote was made again, it was voted through.Stevo_666 said:
I'm not sure where the clamour came from for this ever closer integration. To me it seemed like it was more from the EU rather than the majority of individual member states. Although as I recall, some of the member states were even asked to vote more than once on certain matters related to greater integration...presumably just to be sure?rick_chasey said:All the various parts of integration were agreed by all the constituent nations, who are all democracies.
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Maybe they were enough at the time, unfortunately it didn't work in 2016.rick_chasey said:
Yeah. They had a vote, it was rejected, some concessions were made, the vote was made again, it was voted through.Stevo_666 said:
I'm not sure where the clamour came from for this ever closer integration. To me it seemed like it was more from the EU rather than the majority of individual member states. Although as I recall, some of the member states were even asked to vote more than once on certain matters related to greater integration...presumably just to be sure?rick_chasey said:All the various parts of integration were agreed by all the constituent nations, who are all democracies.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
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whilst the OP is undeniably a thicko I think it is a big jump to conclude that his thinking reflects that of Brexiteers whose thinking spans between not knowing who Leo is and those who deep down think we still own the place so we call the shots.tailwindhome said:I note the change in thread title.
The Irish Government had one overriding objective in the Withdrawal Agreement phase of Brexit, namely that they would never have to implement the EU border on the island of Ireland and still protect their place in the single market.
That this has been achieved and the Brexiteer mindset still be as reflected in the thread title ("Leo having the last word because he just doesn't carry much weight") while an internal border goes up within the UK is really quite something.0 -
Just making the point that it doesn't always work...hard to argue with really.rick_chasey said:That is BRAND NEW INFORMATION.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Varadkar: "You may have to make concessions in areas like fishing in order to get concessions from us in areas like financial services."
This sounds positive.
The level playing field prereqisite sounds like we are more likely to leave without a deal though.0 -
I still find some of these new thread titles quite amusing.tailwindhome said:I note the change in thread title.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]1 -
That's not a wide span.surrey_commuter said:
whilst the OP is undeniably a thicko I think it is a big jump to conclude that his thinking reflects that of Brexiteers whose thinking spans between not knowing who Leo is and those who deep down think we still own the place so we call the shots.tailwindhome said:I note the change in thread title.
The Irish Government had one overriding objective in the Withdrawal Agreement phase of Brexit, namely that they would never have to implement the EU border on the island of Ireland and still protect their place in the single market.
That this has been achieved and the Brexiteer mindset still be as reflected in the thread title ("Leo having the last word because he just doesn't carry much weight") while an internal border goes up within the UK is really quite something.
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
