BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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BelgianBeerGeek wrote:
Now I might be being dim here but aren't all EU laws ratified by each member country, and therefore become the law of, said country? Not a sarcastic comment (like before), some beaurocrat must know this?TheBigBean wrote:One bill to enshrine EU law into UK law seems quite sensible. Will prevent endless court cases on whether previously enacted EU laws are still valid. From that starting point various laws can be removed.
Otherwise, she seems to be setting the UK up for a hard Brexit to improve its negotiating position with the EU. Presumably with a goal to achieve some sort of trade deal. I would have thought that she needs to clarify the WTO situation, agree some form of roll over of various trade deals with a variety of countries and ensure there are no other legal hurdles. Then she can sit down with EU.
I think they're all subject to ECJ ultimately. By doing this she transfers to UK ownership so that she can get rid of those that they don't want in due course. Workers Rights etc.0 -
verylonglegs wrote:Joelsim wrote:This has the potential to be the biggest f*ck up in UK history, at a time when we already have massive borrowing.
It defies any logic or sense.
Why should it make sense? Nationalism and bigotry has never made any sense.
That's true. But you'd expect intelligent people in government to look at the likely consequences and realise that making people poorer can only lead to more disenchantment.0 -
It's taken this long for you to realise that?Surrey Commuter wrote:
The more I read about the WTO the more I fear it is the elephant in the room.
Legally we can not negotiate until we are no longer a member of the EU. Article 50 gives all the aces to the EU. I think they will make us a take it or leave it offer.
Still, you are still way ahead of quite a few.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Yeah yeah, that's what I thought. Working time directive, HRA, all those laws that have pissed off TM for years. Now for the chop. Except the Lords will be annoyed. And TM has a very slender majority. If Labour can get their act together, this could be fun.Joelsim wrote:BelgianBeerGeek wrote:
Now I might be being dim here but aren't all EU laws ratified by each member country, and therefore become the law of, said country? Not a sarcastic comment (like before), some beaurocrat must know this?TheBigBean wrote:One bill to enshrine EU law into UK law seems quite sensible. Will prevent endless court cases on whether previously enacted EU laws are still valid. From that starting point various laws can be removed.
Otherwise, she seems to be setting the UK up for a hard Brexit to improve its negotiating position with the EU. Presumably with a goal to achieve some sort of trade deal. I would have thought that she needs to clarify the WTO situation, agree some form of roll over of various trade deals with a variety of countries and ensure there are no other legal hurdles. Then she can sit down with EU.
I think they're all subject to ECJ ultimately. By doing this she transfers to UK ownership so that she can get rid of those that they don't want in due course. Workers Rights etc.
Oh, and TM reckons March 2017 onwards. The Germans will be occupied with elections in 2017, so TM and others may be pissing in the wind with their "demands". Oh well, Dr Fox will sort it.Ecrasez l’infame0 -
BelgianBeerGeek wrote:
Now I might be being dim here but aren't all EU laws ratified by each member country, and therefore become the law of, said country? Not a sarcastic comment (like before), some beaurocrat must know this?TheBigBean wrote:One bill to enshrine EU law into UK law seems quite sensible. Will prevent endless court cases on whether previously enacted EU laws are still valid. From that starting point various laws can be removed.
Otherwise, she seems to be setting the UK up for a hard Brexit to improve its negotiating position with the EU. Presumably with a goal to achieve some sort of trade deal. I would have thought that she needs to clarify the WTO situation, agree some form of roll over of various trade deals with a variety of countries and ensure there are no other legal hurdles. Then she can sit down with EU.
My understanding is that when we joined the EU we passed a law that meant all EU laws applied in the UK. The idea is that we will pass a new law that will make all those laws UK law. This means we can repeal them and amend them at will. Reporting suggests it is a no-brainer as after forty years there really was no other option.0 -
The UK is a WTO member in its own right, as are other EU member States (and also the EU itself):
https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/countries_e/united_kingdom_e.htm
http://www.lawyersforbritain.org/int-trade.shtml
No need to reapply for WTO membership."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
BelgianBeerGeek wrote:
Now I might be being dim here but aren't all EU laws ratified by each member country, and therefore become the law of, said country? Not a sarcastic comment (like before), some beaurocrat must know this?TheBigBean wrote:One bill to enshrine EU law into UK law seems quite sensible. Will prevent endless court cases on whether previously enacted EU laws are still valid. From that starting point various laws can be removed.
Otherwise, she seems to be setting the UK up for a hard Brexit to improve its negotiating position with the EU. Presumably with a goal to achieve some sort of trade deal. I would have thought that she needs to clarify the WTO situation, agree some form of roll over of various trade deals with a variety of countries and ensure there are no other legal hurdles. Then she can sit down with EU.
No, EU laws will be put forward by the European Council, and once ratified by the EU Council and Parliament they are to be implemented by member states into their own legislation. Council consults with individual countries but they don't have to ratify all directives by individual parliaments (because that would take forever).
In the UK the regs I work with (HSE ones) are transposed into UK regulations with varying amounts of modifications based on how best they will fit into existing regs (for example we have two specific regs DSEAR and COSSH which cover various bits of a few EU regs) and from my reading I can't see why they would be affected. But it's more complicated cos all the H&S regs are implemented into UK regs under the provisions of the Health and Safety at Work Act which allows the HSE to basically make whatever regs they want within their remit. A lot of text from the UK regs is copy and pasted from the EU directives they're based on but the introduction just says when it was made and laid before Parliament (UK) and doesn't mention the EU regs.
However I assume there might be a chance that people would use the fact that EU laws no longer apply in order to challenge bits of regulation they don't agree with.
TL;DR: Probably for a lot of them you are right, but I assume it will save a load of potential challenges.0 -
Kind of my point (see above). Let's decide whose laws are ours and which are imposed by those dispicable foreigners. Shouldn't take too long, given HM Govt has lots of highly trained lawyers waiting for just this opportunity.Surrey Commuter wrote:BelgianBeerGeek wrote:
Now I might be being dim here but aren't all EU laws ratified by each member country, and therefore become the law of, said country? Not a sarcastic comment (like before), some beaurocrat must know this?TheBigBean wrote:One bill to enshrine EU law into UK law seems quite sensible. Will prevent endless court cases on whether previously enacted EU laws are still valid. From that starting point various laws can be removed.
Otherwise, she seems to be setting the UK up for a hard Brexit to improve its negotiating position with the EU. Presumably with a goal to achieve some sort of trade deal. I would have thought that she needs to clarify the WTO situation, agree some form of roll over of various trade deals with a variety of countries and ensure there are no other legal hurdles. Then she can sit down with EU.
My understanding is that when we joined the EU we passed a law that meant all EU laws applied in the UK. The idea is that we will pass a new law that will make all those laws UK law. This means we can repeal them and amend them at will. Reporting suggests it is a no-brainer as after forty years there really was no other option.
If this wasn't so serious, this would be very funny. Luckily no one seems to give a shit.
Edited to acknowledge Bob's post: interesting, thanks.Ecrasez l’infame0 -
It'll be interesting to see what the markets think tomorrow.0
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Surrey Commuter wrote:My understanding is that when we joined the EU we passed a law that meant all EU laws applied in the UK. The idea is that we will pass a new law that will make all those laws UK law. This means we can repeal them and amend them at will. Reporting suggests it is a no-brainer as after forty years there really was no other option.
Like I said I'm only familiar with laws in one area but that's not what it looks like from where I'm sitting. From what I see the way it seems to work is the EU makes laws and the member states are required to implement them into their own laws.
Most of the regs I work with are UK laws made by UK bodies and passed by UK parliament in order to implement the requirements of EU legislation. To read, they are indistinguishable from UK only laws (and I just looked at my copy of DSEAR and it makes no reference to the EU ATEX directive it's derived from).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8160808.stm - BBC explainer0 -
BelgianBeerGeek wrote:Edited to acknowledge Bob's post: interesting, thanks.
Ha, "interesting", that's one way to put it...
When I was in Aberdeen one of the jobs I worked on was to spend weeks going through the all the applicable UK offshore safety legislation for one of the majors that is developing a new field here. It made me want to claw my eyes out.0 -
bobmcstuff wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:My understanding is that when we joined the EU we passed a law that meant all EU laws applied in the UK. The idea is that we will pass a new law that will make all those laws UK law. This means we can repeal them and amend them at will. Reporting suggests it is a no-brainer as after forty years there really was no other option.
Like I said I'm only familiar with laws in one area but that's not what it looks like from where I'm sitting. From what I see the way it seems to work is the EU makes laws and the member states are required to implement them into their own laws.
Most of the regs I work with are UK laws made by UK bodies and passed by UK parliament in order to implement the requirements of EU legislation. To read, they are indistinguishable from UK only laws (and I just looked at my copy of DSEAR and it makes no reference to the EU ATEX directive it's derived from).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8160808.stm - BBC explainer
I read somewhere a few months' back that the UK only voted against 13 out of over 1,500 new laws. Something of that order anyway.0 -
Joelsim wrote:bobmcstuff wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:My understanding is that when we joined the EU we passed a law that meant all EU laws applied in the UK. The idea is that we will pass a new law that will make all those laws UK law. This means we can repeal them and amend them at will. Reporting suggests it is a no-brainer as after forty years there really was no other option.
Like I said I'm only familiar with laws in one area but that's not what it looks like from where I'm sitting. From what I see the way it seems to work is the EU makes laws and the member states are required to implement them into their own laws.
Most of the regs I work with are UK laws made by UK bodies and passed by UK parliament in order to implement the requirements of EU legislation. To read, they are indistinguishable from UK only laws (and I just looked at my copy of DSEAR and it makes no reference to the EU ATEX directive it's derived from).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8160808.stm - BBC explainer
I read somewhere a few months' back that the UK only voted against 13 out of over 1,500 new laws. Something of that order anyway.
Yes the bit where I say "EU makes laws" involves the council and eu parliament so the UK MEPs and council reps get to vote there.
The Committee talks to a load of people when it's making the laws as well (inc industry and regulators) so they get a say then.0 -
verylonglegs wrote:Joelsim wrote:This has the potential to be the biggest f*ck up in UK history, at a time when we already have massive borrowing.
It defies any logic or sense.
Why should it make sense? Nationalism and bigotry has never made any sense.
First off, I voted remain.
I get pissed off with the lazy way terms like bigot get used though. People lazily assume that 17m people voted the way they did because they are bigots.
Yes, immigration played a big part in the referendum but it doesn't make all OUT voters bigots.
There are rules that govern the admission of non EU nationals, which I assume people are quite happy with. Otherwise there would be a clamour for an open border to the rest of the world. Some Brexiters want this extended to EU nationals as well. How does that make them bigots in making everyone applying for entry the same? People applying from N and S America, Africa, Asia and Australia are treated differently from those wishing to come from Europe.
Surely withholding rights that are conferred on others is more akin to bigotry than treating everyone as being equal?
Why is withholding entry from a person from say Africa is regarded as being acceptable but to potentially bar a person from Europe considered bigotry?0 -
Ballysmate wrote:verylonglegs wrote:
Why should it make sense? Nationalism and bigotry has never made any sense.
First off, I voted remain.
I get pissed off with the lazy way terms like bigot get used though. People lazily assume that 17m people voted the way they did because they are bigots.
Yes, immigration played a big part in the referendum but it doesn't make all OUT voters bigots.
There are rules that govern the admission of non EU nationals, which I assume people are quite happy with. Otherwise there would be a clamour for an open border to the rest of the world. Some Brexiters want this extended to EU nationals as well. How does that make them bigots in making everyone applying for entry the same? People applying from N and S America, Africa, Asia and Australia are treated differently from those wishing to come from Europe.
Surely withholding rights that are conferred on others is more akin to bigotry than treating everyone as being equal?
Why is withholding entry from a person from say Africa is regarded as being acceptable but to potentially bar a person from Europe considered bigotry?
i think most (not all) people who voted OUT dont want anyone to come into this country.0 -
Ballysmate wrote:verylonglegs wrote:Joelsim wrote:This has the potential to be the biggest f*ck up in UK history, at a time when we already have massive borrowing.
It defies any logic or sense.
Why should it make sense? Nationalism and bigotry has never made any sense.
First off, I voted remain.
I get pissed off with the lazy way terms like bigot get used though. People lazily assume that 17m people voted the way they did because they are bigots.
Yes, immigration played a big part in the referendum but it doesn't make all OUT voters bigots.
There are rules that govern the admission of non EU nationals, which I assume people are quite happy with. Otherwise there would be a clamour for an open border to the rest of the world. Some Brexiters want this extended to EU nationals as well. How does that make them bigots in making everyone applying for entry the same? People applying from N and S America, Africa, Asia and Australia are treated differently from those wishing to come from Europe.
Surely withholding rights that are conferred on others is more akin to bigotry than treating everyone as being equal?
Why is withholding entry from a person from say Africa is regarded as being acceptable but to potentially bar a person from Europe considered bigotry?
It is interesting when talking to anyone on the subject of Brexit, how quickly a discussion can descend into racism. I asked my Bulgarian colleague why the opportunities that he identified shouldn't be extended to the people of Morocco. "But, but, but.... I'm European"
Even on this thread Ugo was making derogatory references to Gypsies.
And that's before I even mention the "they should do as we do in our country" brigade.0 -
Everyone's basically inherently racist BigBean.
It's about the active fight against it, rather than succumbing to it in varying degrees.
If we take racism to include national identity, any discussion on immigration whatsoever is fundamentally racist; that's kinda the point; we decide who of them has rights here. Any we/them distinction discriminates. That's just the way identity works.0 -
So the Brexiters, so despised on here by some are actually less bigoted than us remainers. We draw a distinction between people from our own continent and the rest of the world. Brexiters want to treat all potential entrants on merit.
Well I never!!0 -
Ballysmate wrote:So the Brexiters, so despised on here by some are actually less bigoted than us remainers. We draw a distinction between people from our own continent and the rest of the world. Brexiters want to treat all potential entrants on merit.
Well I never!!
No. Brexiteers want the population to be as English as possible, but understand some need to be let in to do their cleaning for less money and generally fill some gaps where necessary in the labour market.
Not all Brexiteers are racists, but all racists are Brexiteers.0 -
Joelsim wrote:Ballysmate wrote:So the Brexiters, so despised on here by some are actually less bigoted than us remainers. We draw a distinction between people from our own continent and the rest of the world. Brexiters want to treat all potential entrants on merit.
Well I never!!
No. Brexiteers want the population to be as English as possible, but understand some need to be let in to do their cleaning for less money and generally fill some gaps where necessary in the labour market.
Not all Brexiteers are racists, but all racists are Brexiteers.
Whereas we remainers want the population to be European. We don't want any of those African or American types do we? Or perish the thought, Aussies?0 -
Sky Poll this morning.
Total control of immigration 52%
Access to single market 40%
I'm assuming there were 52% of people who don't have even the slightest inkling what free access the single market means. Not until they lose their jobs and start moaning. My attitude now is if someone voted leave and now hits hard times then tough titty, they only have themselves to blame.0 -
Ballysmate wrote:Joelsim wrote:Ballysmate wrote:So the Brexiters, so despised on here by some are actually less bigoted than us remainers. We draw a distinction between people from our own continent and the rest of the world. Brexiters want to treat all potential entrants on merit.
Well I never!!
No. Brexiteers want the population to be as English as possible, but understand some need to be let in to do their cleaning for less money and generally fill some gaps where necessary in the labour market.
Not all Brexiteers are racists, but all racists are Brexiteers.
Whereas we remainers want the population to be European. We don't want any of those African or American types do we? Or perish the thought, Aussies?
I don't care who comes here. At the end of the day everyone is a human being.*
*Trump supporters excepted. We already have 17m muppets here.0 -
It means that the small sample who could be arsed to poll place more importance on border controls than access to the single market. There's that number again...52%0
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Ballysmate wrote:It means that the small sample who could be arsed to poll place more importance on border controls than access to the single market. There's that number again...52%
Catch 52.0 -
Joelsim wrote:Ballysmate wrote:Joelsim wrote:Ballysmate wrote:So the Brexiters, so despised on here by some are actually less bigoted than us remainers. We draw a distinction between people from our own continent and the rest of the world. Brexiters want to treat all potential entrants on merit.
Well I never!!
No. Brexiteers want the population to be as English as possible, but understand some need to be let in to do their cleaning for less money and generally fill some gaps where necessary in the labour market.
Not all Brexiteers are racists, but all racists are Brexiteers.
Whereas we remainers want the population to be European. We don't want any of those African or American types do we? Or perish the thought, Aussies?
I don't care who comes here. At the end of the day everyone is a human being.*
*Trump supporters excepted.
That's a radical policy. Total open borders and disband the BA. Can't see that appearing in any manifesto soon.0 -
Ballysmate wrote:Joelsim wrote:Ballysmate wrote:Joelsim wrote:Ballysmate wrote:So the Brexiters, so despised on here by some are actually less bigoted than us remainers. We draw a distinction between people from our own continent and the rest of the world. Brexiters want to treat all potential entrants on merit.
Well I never!!
No. Brexiteers want the population to be as English as possible, but understand some need to be let in to do their cleaning for less money and generally fill some gaps where necessary in the labour market.
Not all Brexiteers are racists, but all racists are Brexiteers.
Whereas we remainers want the population to be European. We don't want any of those African or American types do we? Or perish the thought, Aussies?
I don't care who comes here. At the end of the day everyone is a human being.*
*Trump supporters excepted.
That's a radical policy. Total open borders and disband the BA. Can't see that appearing in any manifesto soon.
Maybe it could be one in one out.
Every time we let a human being in, we let someone wearing a Lonsdale tracksuit out.
The economy would soon improve.0 -
Ballysmate wrote:Joelsim wrote:Ballysmate wrote:So the Brexiters, so despised on here by some are actually less bigoted than us remainers. We draw a distinction between people from our own continent and the rest of the world. Brexiters want to treat all potential entrants on merit.
Well I never!!
No. Brexiteers want the population to be as English as possible, but understand some need to be let in to do their cleaning for less money and generally fill some gaps where necessary in the labour market.
Not all Brexiteers are racists, but all racists are Brexiteers.
Whereas we remainers want the population to be European. We don't want any of those African or American types do we? Or perish the thought, Aussies?
the immigration policy toward non eu nationals was particularly harsh because the tories said they wanted immigration down to the 10s of 1000s.
what will no doubt happen now is that less eu citizens will come here, to be replaced with more non eu ones, probably the exact opposite to what brixiters want.
i thought one of the brexiters arguments was that if we stay in, all those millions in libya and turkey would be coming here?
i m quite amazed at how a supporter of our membership of the EU has suddenly became a hardened Brexiter, step forward Mrs May, a conviction politician of some renown :?0 -
Lookyhere wrote:Ballysmate wrote:Joelsim wrote:Ballysmate wrote:So the Brexiters, so despised on here by some are actually less bigoted than us remainers. We draw a distinction between people from our own continent and the rest of the world. Brexiters want to treat all potential entrants on merit.
Well I never!!
No. Brexiteers want the population to be as English as possible, but understand some need to be let in to do their cleaning for less money and generally fill some gaps where necessary in the labour market.
Not all Brexiteers are racists, but all racists are Brexiteers.
Whereas we remainers want the population to be European. We don't want any of those African or American types do we? Or perish the thought, Aussies?
the immigration policy toward non eu nationals was particularly harsh because the tories said they wanted immigration down to the 10s of 1000s.
what will no doubt happen now is that less eu citizens will come here, to be replaced with more non eu ones, probably the exact opposite to what brixiters want.
i thought one of the brexiters arguments was that if we stay in, all those millions in libya and turkey would be coming here?
i m quite amazed at how a supporter of our membership of the EU has suddenly became a hardened Brexiter, step forward Mrs May, a conviction politician of some renown :?
She's got a face like a smacked arse too. Vile woman.0 -
Not being able to see into TM's mind I can only guess, just like the rest.
Perhaps she has accepted the result of the referendum and feels that she must set out to get the best deal for the UK in the circumstances.0 -
Joelsim wrote:Lookyhere wrote:Ballysmate wrote:Joelsim wrote:Ballysmate wrote:So the Brexiters, so despised on here by some are actually less bigoted than us remainers. We draw a distinction between people from our own continent and the rest of the world. Brexiters want to treat all potential entrants on merit.
Well I never!!
No. Brexiteers want the population to be as English as possible, but understand some need to be let in to do their cleaning for less money and generally fill some gaps where necessary in the labour market.
Not all Brexiteers are racists, but all racists are Brexiteers.
Whereas we remainers want the population to be European. We don't want any of those African or American types do we? Or perish the thought, Aussies?
the immigration policy toward non eu nationals was particularly harsh because the tories said they wanted immigration down to the 10s of 1000s.
what will no doubt happen now is that less eu citizens will come here, to be replaced with more non eu ones, probably the exact opposite to what brixiters want.
i thought one of the brexiters arguments was that if we stay in, all those millions in libya and turkey would be coming here?
i m quite amazed at how a supporter of our membership of the EU has suddenly became a hardened Brexiter, step forward Mrs May, a conviction politician of some renown :?
She's got a face like a smacked ars* too. Vile woman.
Ask Rick if that remark is misogynist?
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