BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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Comments

  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,137
    How stupid do you actually have to be to believe this governments spin? Is Sean Spicer advising them?

    You could also look at it with admiration, because they have accurately and unashamedly gauged the intelligence of their target audience.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    First Aspect wrote:
    How stupid do you actually have to be to believe this governments spin? Is Sean Spicer advising them?

    You could also look at it with admiration, because they have accurately and unashamedly gauged the intelligence of their target audience.

    It's all about the polls.
    _
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    The problem is that a vote for anyone else basically votes for Labour, which is potentially a bigger economic catastrophe than a hard brexit.
  • kingstonian
    kingstonian Posts: 2,847
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    The Conservative leadership decided a long time ago that trying to get cross party support for it is not in their electoral interests and have stuck with it while their party tore itself apart over it. There is a deal that could get through parliament but they don't want it. Because of the decision to place party over country (and over Brexit), they've successfully made the whole thing toxic. It's all their own fault.


    To be fair, many different parties have combined to make it toxic. You've outlined the Tory part to this, but there is also a Labour party with a leader that didn't actively campaign to remain (many believe him to be a closet Leaver) and has sat on the fence throughout despite approx 60% of labour MPs sitting in Leave constituencies, the SNP who are using the Brexit discussion to try to force another Scottish Independence referendum when we all thought it was a "once in a generation" event, and the Lib Dems who are trying to rebuild their support through attracting Remain voters by saying they'll do everything in their power to tear up the result of the first referendum. Ultimately, all parties are doing what they feel benefits themselves in the polls - always have, always will.
  • morstar
    morstar Posts: 6,190
    Pinno wrote:
    Loving the irony of the Tories moaning about Labour when it was the Tories who have been negotiating Brexit, the Tories who decided to have a referendum, the Tories who have inner problems, the Tories who contain an element called the ERG, the Tories who have had 2 successive unelected PM's (okay TM did win a General but had to get into bed with the DUP who have put the kibosh on any withdrawal agreements) etc etc.
    Boris wants to force a GE through because it's the Tories who don't have the numbers.

    Yes, the Right Sh1te is equally as abundant as any leftie b*ll*x
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,119
    Kingstonian wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    The Conservative leadership decided a long time ago that trying to get cross party support for it is not in their electoral interests and have stuck with it while their party tore itself apart over it. There is a deal that could get through parliament but they don't want it. Because of the decision to place party over country (and over Brexit), they've successfully made the whole thing toxic. It's all their own fault.


    To be fair, many different parties have combined to make it toxic. You've outlined the Tory part to this, but there is also a Labour party with a leader that didn't actively campaign to remain (many believe him to be a closet Leaver) and has sat on the fence throughout despite approx 60% of labour MPs sitting in Leave constituencies, the SNP who are using the Brexit discussion to try to force another Scottish Independence referendum when we all thought it was a "once in a generation" event, and the Lib Dems who are trying to rebuild their support through attracting Remain voters by saying they'll do everything in their power to tear up the result of the first referendum. Ultimately, all parties are doing what they feel benefits themselves in the polls - always have, always will.

    You're too generous to the party who have been in power throughout all of this and determined the red lines and negotiating strategy.
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    First Aspect wrote:
    How stupid do you actually have to be to believe this governments spin? Is Sean Spicer advising them?

    You could also look at it with admiration, because they have accurately and unashamedly gauged the intelligence of their target audience.

    Despite what either side tries to spin, the electorate can see that parliament is trying to sabotage and block Brexit.

    The electorate realigned the Tory party via the EU elections. Labour are still in denial so will learn the hard way at the next GE. The remain Labour vote will be cannibalised by the LD's and TBP will cannibalise their leave vote.

    The LD's are now at their high point. There is a chance they will have less seats after a GE because of the fake seats they have due to MP's that defected from other parties.
  • robert88
    robert88 Posts: 2,696
    There's nothing wrong with blocking Brexit though.

    It was a heinous outcome fixed by cheats and liars.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,137
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    First Aspect wrote:
    How stupid do you actually have to be to believe this governments spin? Is Sean Spicer advising them?

    You could also look at it with admiration, because they have accurately and unashamedly gauged the intelligence of their target audience.

    It's all about the polls.
    Did you mean Poles?
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,137
    If by "sabotage" you mean to metaphorically put the landing gear down and try to find a runway, then yes.
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    First Aspect wrote:
    How stupid do you actually have to be to believe this governments spin? Is Sean Spicer advising them?

    You could also look at it with admiration, because they have accurately and unashamedly gauged the intelligence of their target audience.

    The worrying part is, the thickest have clearly identified themselves as the most vocal, so are now going to the be the target audience of parties seeking votes going forward.

    A sad turning point for British politics.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,354
    Pinno wrote:
    Loving the irony of the Tories moaning about Labour when it was the Tories who have been negotiating Brexit, the Tories who decided to have a referendum, the Tories who have inner problems, the Tories who contain an element called the ERG, the Tories who have had 2 successive unelected PM's (okay TM did win a General but had to get into bed with the DUP who have put the kibosh on any withdrawal agreements) etc etc.
    Boris wants to force a GE through because it's the Tories who don't have the numbers.
    Want some ketchup with your chips? :)
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • kingstonian
    kingstonian Posts: 2,847
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Kingstonian wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    The Conservative leadership decided a long time ago that trying to get cross party support for it is not in their electoral interests and have stuck with it while their party tore itself apart over it. There is a deal that could get through parliament but they don't want it. Because of the decision to place party over country (and over Brexit), they've successfully made the whole thing toxic. It's all their own fault.


    To be fair, many different parties have combined to make it toxic. You've outlined the Tory part to this, but there is also a Labour party with a leader that didn't actively campaign to remain (many believe him to be a closet Leaver) and has sat on the fence throughout despite approx 60% of labour MPs sitting in Leave constituencies, the SNP who are using the Brexit discussion to try to force another Scottish Independence referendum when we all thought it was a "once in a generation" event, and the Lib Dems who are trying to rebuild their support through attracting Remain voters by saying they'll do everything in their power to tear up the result of the first referendum. Ultimately, all parties are doing what they feel benefits themselves in the polls - always have, always will.

    You're too generous to the party who have been in power throughout all of this and determined the red lines and negotiating strategy.


    Eh ??? I agreed to what you said about the Tories, so if that's being too generous you can always edit your initial post. My point is merely to provide a little balance to the perspective and to point out that what matters above all else to every political party is the route to power, and that principles only matter if they support that power-hungry quest.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,119
    Kingstonian wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Kingstonian wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    The Conservative leadership decided a long time ago that trying to get cross party support for it is not in their electoral interests and have stuck with it while their party tore itself apart over it. There is a deal that could get through parliament but they don't want it. Because of the decision to place party over country (and over Brexit), they've successfully made the whole thing toxic. It's all their own fault.


    To be fair, many different parties have combined to make it toxic. You've outlined the Tory part to this, but there is also a Labour party with a leader that didn't actively campaign to remain (many believe him to be a closet Leaver) and has sat on the fence throughout despite approx 60% of labour MPs sitting in Leave constituencies, the SNP who are using the Brexit discussion to try to force another Scottish Independence referendum when we all thought it was a "once in a generation" event, and the Lib Dems who are trying to rebuild their support through attracting Remain voters by saying they'll do everything in their power to tear up the result of the first referendum. Ultimately, all parties are doing what they feel benefits themselves in the polls - always have, always will.

    You're too generous to the party who have been in power throughout all of this and determined the red lines and negotiating strategy.


    Eh ??? I agreed to what you said about the Tories, so if that's being too generous you can always edit your initial post. My point is merely to provide a little balance to the perspective and to point out that what matters above all else to every political party is the route to power, and that principles only matter if they support that power-hungry quest.

    I definitely did not "both sides" it.
  • elbowloh
    elbowloh Posts: 7,078
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    Loving the irony of the Tories moaning about Labour when it was the Tories who have been negotiating Brexit, the Tories who decided to have a referendum, the Tories who have inner problems, the Tories who contain an element called the ERG, the Tories who have had 2 successive unelected PM's (okay TM did win a General but had to get into bed with the DUP who have put the kibosh on any withdrawal agreements) etc etc.
    Boris wants to force a GE through because it's the Tories who don't have the numbers.
    Want some ketchup with your chips? :)
    He's factually correct though.
    Felt F1 2014
    Felt Z6 2012
    Red Arthur Caygill steel frame
    Tall....
    www.seewildlife.co.uk
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,354
    elbowloh wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    Loving the irony of the Tories moaning about Labour when it was the Tories who have been negotiating Brexit, the Tories who decided to have a referendum, the Tories who have inner problems, the Tories who contain an element called the ERG, the Tories who have had 2 successive unelected PM's (okay TM did win a General but had to get into bed with the DUP who have put the kibosh on any withdrawal agreements) etc etc.
    Boris wants to force a GE through because it's the Tories who don't have the numbers.
    Want some ketchup with your chips? :)
    He's factually correct though.
    Looks like I'll need a bigger bottle of ketchup :wink:
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • robert88
    robert88 Posts: 2,696
    elbowloh wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    Loving the irony of the Tories moaning about Labour when it was the Tories who have been negotiating Brexit, the Tories who decided to have a referendum, the Tories who have inner problems, the Tories who contain an element called the ERG, the Tories who have had 2 successive unelected PM's (okay TM did win a General but had to get into bed with the DUP who have put the kibosh on any withdrawal agreements) etc etc.
    Boris wants to force a GE through because it's the Tories who don't have the numbers.
    Want some ketchup with your chips? :)
    He's factually correct though.

    ..and they led us into ww2. Anyway, I need a big dip in the pound as I have a load of foreign currency to convert. I predict that there will be another hung parliament should Boris Trump get his election.
    ..the Conservatives are expected to bleed support to the Brexit party once the October 31 deadline has been missed, while Labour should rally when people currently saying they don’t know how they will vote make up their minds; most of them voted Labour in 2017.

    "Our base case remains that the election leads to another hung parliament, with a Tory minority government still paralysed on Brexit and forced into further delays," says Samuel Tombs, UK Economist with Pantheon Macroeconomics, adding:

    "We expect an imminent general election, which will bring more near-term uncertainty and depress Sterling.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,317
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    elbowloh wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    Loving the irony of the Tories moaning about Labour when it was the Tories who have been negotiating Brexit, the Tories who decided to have a referendum, the Tories who have inner problems, the Tories who contain an element called the ERG, the Tories who have had 2 successive unelected PM's (okay TM did win a General but had to get into bed with the DUP who have put the kibosh on any withdrawal agreements) etc etc.
    Boris wants to force a GE through because it's the Tories who don't have the numbers.
    Want some ketchup with your chips? :)
    He's factually correct though.
    Looks like I'll need a bigger bottle of ketchup :wink:
    You could try providing evidence to the contrary, rather than ascribing metaphorical physical defects to the author, and winking.
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,354
    briantrumpet wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    elbowloh wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    Loving the irony of the Tories moaning about Labour when it was the Tories who have been negotiating Brexit, the Tories who decided to have a referendum, the Tories who have inner problems, the Tories who contain an element called the ERG, the Tories who have had 2 successive unelected PM's (okay TM did win a General but had to get into bed with the DUP who have put the kibosh on any withdrawal agreements) etc etc.
    Boris wants to force a GE through because it's the Tories who don't have the numbers.
    Want some ketchup with your chips? :)
    He's factually correct though.
    Looks like I'll need a bigger bottle of ketchup :wink:
    You could try providing evidence to the contrary, rather than ascribing metaphorical physical defects to the author, and winking.
    I'm pulling their legs Brian. They're free to moan and Cake Stop is the place for that. Although likely the deal will get through in the end despite all of the moaning - so cheer up, we can move onto the trade agreement soon.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,317
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    briantrumpet wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    elbowloh wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    Loving the irony of the Tories moaning about Labour when it was the Tories who have been negotiating Brexit, the Tories who decided to have a referendum, the Tories who have inner problems, the Tories who contain an element called the ERG, the Tories who have had 2 successive unelected PM's (okay TM did win a General but had to get into bed with the DUP who have put the kibosh on any withdrawal agreements) etc etc.
    Boris wants to force a GE through because it's the Tories who don't have the numbers.
    Want some ketchup with your chips? :)
    He's factually correct though.
    Looks like I'll need a bigger bottle of ketchup :wink:
    You could try providing evidence to the contrary, rather than ascribing metaphorical physical defects to the author, and winking.
    I'm pulling their legs Brian. They're free to moan and Cake Stop is the place for that. Although likely the deal will get through in the end despite all of the moaning - so cheer up, we can move onto the trade agreement soon.
    Ah, so you're not disagreeing with the analysis. I'm a little surprised you're so cheerful, given the incompetence of your party... I suppose it goes to show what an incorrigible optimist you are ;)
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,435
    Kingstonian wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    The Conservative leadership decided a long time ago that trying to get cross party support for it is not in their electoral interests and have stuck with it while their party tore itself apart over it. There is a deal that could get through parliament but they don't want it. Because of the decision to place party over country (and over Brexit), they've successfully made the whole thing toxic. It's all their own fault.


    To be fair, many different parties have combined to make it toxic. You've outlined the Tory part to this, but there is also a Labour party with a leader that didn't actively campaign to remain (many believe him to be a closet Leaver) and has sat on the fence throughout despite approx 60% of labour MPs sitting in Leave constituencies, the SNP who are using the Brexit discussion to try to force another Scottish Independence referendum when we all thought it was a "once in a generation" event, and the Lib Dems who are trying to rebuild their support through attracting Remain voters by saying they'll do everything in their power to tear up the result of the first referendum. Ultimately, all parties are doing what they feel benefits themselves in the polls - always have, always will.
    Personally I see the LD's stance as basically a negotiating piece in case they are in the position to hold a casting vote on forming the next government (either another coalition or a DUP type situation).

    It's transparently obvious that they will never win a majority so their position can't be anything but that.

    If they were still second referendum, that could get watered down to no referendum, but revoke would get watered down to a 2nd ref. They would insist on a 2nd ref due to their revoke mandate (based on their manifesto commitment) as part of any deal they make.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,301
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    Loving the irony of the Tories moaning about Labour when it was the Tories who have been negotiating Brexit, the Tories who decided to have a referendum, the Tories who have inner problems, the Tories who contain an element called the ERG, the Tories who have had 2 successive unelected PM's (okay TM did win a General but had to get into bed with the DUP who have put the kibosh on any withdrawal agreements) etc etc.
    Boris wants to force a GE through because it's the Tories who don't have the numbers.
    Want some ketchup with your chips? :)

    Oh no - just correcting rightie bollox.
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Corbyn can solve the problem by just agreeing to what they've been tryinng to get for a long time.

    The problem is not Labour's, it's... the Tories problem.

    You must recognise that the party you support has put us in this mess surely?
    You would really need a seriously good shrink if you think that none of these problems are caused by the incumbent administration.

    The Tories are less likely to f*ck up the economy but that's not a good choice.

    There's no chip on my shoulder. I don't support Corbyn - he's far too left wing but in the same vein, I do not support Conservatives because they are a bunch of w@nkers who have the insidious element of the ERG. You cannot trust the Maastricht 'bastards'.
    If the Tory party was made up of moderates like Ken Clarke or Phillip Hammond, they would be a party I might even vote for.

    If you think I have a chip on my shoulder because you think I am a 'leftie', then you are wrong.
    If there's a chip, it's the chip of not having a good choice between the main parties - Labour is in disarray and not capable of governing and the Tories are the elite for the elite so long as the ERG (and one or two others) is part of their contingent.

    All good Tories like yourself have to concede the institutions of the welfare state, the NHS, the minimum wage, and the Educations system (it was a Liberal who was responsible for the all important 1918 Education act) were all acts of Socialist governments.
    Even your modern day Health and Safety at work act (first introduced by Barbara Castle and denied parliamentary time by the next Tory administration and then passed by the following socialist government) was a 'Leftie' policy.

    All the above improved the lives for many but if you think that all 'Leftie' stuff is 'bollox', then you need to move to the US.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,308
    Pinno wrote:
    All the above improved the lives for many but if you think that all 'Leftie' stuff is 'bollox', then you need to move to the US.
    He won't have to.
    Post Brexit Trump is bringing the U.S.A here. Great deals to be had, mark my words.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,301
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    All the above improved the lives for many but if you think that all 'Leftie' stuff is 'bollox', then you need to move to the US.
    He won't have to.
    Post Brexit Trump is bringing the U.S.A here. Great deals to be had, mark my words.

    Don't tell me; it will be bewdiful, fantastic, the best...
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,354
    briantrumpet wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    briantrumpet wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    elbowloh wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    Loving the irony of the Tories moaning about Labour when it was the Tories who have been negotiating Brexit, the Tories who decided to have a referendum, the Tories who have inner problems, the Tories who contain an element called the ERG, the Tories who have had 2 successive unelected PM's (okay TM did win a General but had to get into bed with the DUP who have put the kibosh on any withdrawal agreements) etc etc.
    Boris wants to force a GE through because it's the Tories who don't have the numbers.
    Want some ketchup with your chips? :)
    He's factually correct though.
    Looks like I'll need a bigger bottle of ketchup :wink:
    You could try providing evidence to the contrary, rather than ascribing metaphorical physical defects to the author, and winking.
    I'm pulling their legs Brian. They're free to moan and Cake Stop is the place for that. Although likely the deal will get through in the end despite all of the moaning - so cheer up, we can move onto the trade agreement soon.
    Ah, so you're not disagreeing with the analysis. I'm a little surprised you're so cheerful, given the incompetence of your party... I suppose it goes to show what an incorrigible optimist you are ;)
    If they are that bad I'm sure they will get their comeuppance at the ballot box :wink:
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,354
    Pinno wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    Loving the irony of the Tories moaning about Labour when it was the Tories who have been negotiating Brexit, the Tories who decided to have a referendum, the Tories who have inner problems, the Tories who contain an element called the ERG, the Tories who have had 2 successive unelected PM's (okay TM did win a General but had to get into bed with the DUP who have put the kibosh on any withdrawal agreements) etc etc.
    Boris wants to force a GE through because it's the Tories who don't have the numbers.
    Want some ketchup with your chips? :)

    Oh no - just correcting rightie bollox.
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Corbyn can solve the problem by just agreeing to what they've been tryinng to get for a long time.

    The problem is not Labour's, it's... the Tories problem.

    You must recognise that the party you support has put us in this mess surely?
    You would really need a seriously good shrink if you think that none of these problems are caused by the incumbent administration.

    The Tories are less likely to f*ck up the economy but that's not a good choice.

    There's no chip on my shoulder. I don't support Corbyn - he's far too left wing but in the same vein, I do not support Conservatives because they are a bunch of w@nkers who have the insidious element of the ERG. You cannot trust the Maastricht 'bastards'.
    If the Tory party was made up of moderates like Ken Clarke or Phillip Hammond, they would be a party I might even vote for.

    If you think I have a chip on my shoulder because you think I am a 'leftie', then you are wrong.
    If there's a chip, it's the chip of not having a good choice between the main parties - Labour is in disarray and not capable of governing and the Tories are the elite for the elite so long as the ERG (and one or two others) is part of their contingent.

    All good Tories like yourself have to concede the institutions of the welfare state, the NHS, the minimum wage, and the Educations system (it was a Liberal who was responsible for the all important 1918 Education act) were all acts of Socialist governments.
    Even your modern day Health and Safety at work act (first introduced by Barbara Castle and denied parliamentary time by the next Tory administration and then passed by the following socialist government) was a 'Leftie' policy.

    All the above improved the lives for many but if you think that all 'Leftie' stuff is 'bollox', then you need to move to the US.
    Looks like the leg pulling worked...as mentioned above, let's watch those nasty Tories getting savaged at the ballot box :)

    As for the on-going pant wetting about some secretive US stitch up, I'll leave the centre left tin foil hat brigade to it.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,137
    Pinno wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    All the above improved the lives for many but if you think that all 'Leftie' stuff is 'bollox', then you need to move to the US.
    He won't have to.
    Post Brexit Trump is bringing the U.S.A here. Great deals to be had, mark my words.

    Don't tell me; it will be bewdiful, fantastic, the best...
    We will do great things together great things.
  • robert88
    robert88 Posts: 2,696
    British ex-Tory now Brexit Party MEP Ann Widdecombe has come out in defence of a former Nazi concentration camp guard who is on trial in Germany, saying that the case against him "lacks proportionality".

    Defending concentration camp guards? Whatever next?

    Maybe the Brexit Party can foresee a time when it'll want to recruit some?

    Stevo 666 wrote:

    As for the on-going pant wetting about some secretive US stitch up, I'll leave the centre left tin foil hat brigade to it.

    I see the Dog is teaching the old Tory some new tricks!
  • motogull
    motogull Posts: 325
    Johnson really is a man of todd.

    No sign of a grown up PM on the horizon though is there?
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,301
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Looks like the leg pulling worked...as mentioned above, let's watch those nasty Tories getting savaged at the ballot box :)

    Yeah: Tories win 3.2 in extra time. Great. It's not a footy match, it's the future of GB here.

    In the whole scheme of things, we need to be a strong GB in a strong Europe in the light of a shifting of power from West to East.
    [Russia is becoming more assertive and have formed a stronger alliance with Syria, filling the void that was left by the American withdrawal. China is buying up everything*, re-educating millions of 'non conformists', being coercive to the democratic wishes of the Cantonese and we dare not say boo to them, the US's position in the world is seceding and the rising superpowers are watching us disintegrate.
    UK leaves the EU and the UK breaks up. Wonderful. But the 'i'm all right Jack Tory voter' thinks that this is a good thing because he'll be alright in the theoretical Principality of London. And he will but stuff the welfare of the rest and the integrity of the UK.]

    I personally will be unaffected by leaving the EU. I'm in a good position but I cannot see how, in any shape or form, a withdrawal will be good, socially, politically (a rise of nationalism?) and economically.
    Even if, after 10 years of WTO negotiation, we may, just, be in the same shape as we are now, we will have endured these 3 years of uncertainty and then will have to endure another 10. What happens in the intervening time before securing trade deals? What souls to what devils are we going to have to sell for what price? How much of UK PLC will we have to give away? How many current foreign investors and companies will say, enough is enough, we'll shift operations to within the EU? (Nissan? BMW Mini?).
    Those in the upper income percentiles will be alright Jack. They can afford private health care, private schools. They are the deserving, self empowered one's that got on their bicycles after all and far superior to the serfs.

    *Including elephants. Not only do they want the ivory, now they are buying the dwindling live stocks up.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!

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