BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Ballysmate wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:

    Anyway I don’t have a vote on whether Scotland leaves the UK and really don’t care if they do or not. If they do wish to leave then I will wish them well.

    Does this new found belief in self determination stretch as far as UK citizens and the EU or is self determination only ok as long as it doesn't affect you?

    What is it about the expression “I don’t care” that you don’t understand.

    It really has nothing to do with me so why would I consider it, offer an opinion or influence in any way the possibility of a Scottish referendum.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,301
    Imposter wrote:
    First Aspect wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    They've sent Rees Mogg out to sound sneering and insult everyone.

    To be fair, he's very good at it..

    He's really not - he genuinely thinks every one is a zinger.

    Dunno. Whenever he loses his seat, there's always a career as a pantomime villain..
    I think he'd make a good tailor. Inside leg measurements and all that. He likes a traditional suit.

    Or a sommelier so he could carry on being snooty to all the people paying his wages.

    Or maybe Herr Flick in a big-screen remake of Allo Allo...

    7B16uh2d_400x400.png
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,119
    The offer to labour seems to amount to "you can have that thing you don't really want but I do, but only if you also have that thing you don't really want but I do."
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    Revoke article 50 and BREXIT again . It's just too much fun.
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,354
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    The offer to labour seems to amount to "you can have that thing you don't really want but I do, but only if you also have that thing you don't really want but I do."
    Labour want to be in power. Brexit is secondary to that for them.

    Boris' threat to pull the deal if they don't support a GE puts them in a bit of a quandry as they will probably get a drubbing at the ballot box, but if they don't agree then potentially we end up with no deal - which is what they say they want to prevent at all costs.

    Also the EU looks like it is holding off on an extension decision until this is resolved. All eyes on the leftiebollox brigade...
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,462
    Another play straight out of the Trump book with this threat to effectively shut down parliament if he doesn't get his GE and Javid on TV now blaming Corbyn.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,354
    Pross wrote:
    Another play straight out of the Trump book with this threat to effectively shut down parliament if he doesn't get his GE and Javid on TV now blaming Corbyn.
    Corbyn can solve the problem by just agreeing to what they've been tryinng to get for a long time. Its not our problem that Labours standing in the polls is crap :)

    Although this might get a bit tricky as Labour have said no GE until there an extension, while the EU looks like they won't agree an extension until the deadlock in Westminster is broken - which needs Labour to agree to a GE.

    No pressure on Magic Grandpa...
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,462
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    Another play straight out of the Trump book with this threat to effectively shut down parliament if he doesn't get his GE and Javid on TV now blaming Corbyn.
    Corbyn can solve the problem by just agreeing to what they've been tryinng to get for a long time. Its not our problem that Labours standing in the polls is crap :)

    Although this might get a bit tricky as Labour have said no GE until there an extension, while the EU looks like they won't agree an extension until the deadlock in Westminster is broken - which needs Labour to agree to a GE.

    No pressure on Magic Grandpa...

    The point is a Tory led coalition Government brought in the FTPA and a Tory Government is now seeking to go early yet again. Ironically, if the hadn't done it the first time around then they may have already 'got Brexit done'. All they need to do this time is give parliament a reasonable amount of time to debate the WAB but they've chosen to try to use the issue to force an election instead.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    Another play straight out of the Trump book with this threat to effectively shut down parliament if he doesn't get his GE and Javid on TV now blaming Corbyn.
    Corbyn can solve the problem by just agreeing to what they've been tryinng to get for a long time. Its not our problem that Labours standing in the polls is crap :)

    Although this might get a bit tricky as Labour have said no GE until there an extension, while the EU looks like they won't agree an extension until the deadlock in Westminster is broken - which needs Labour to agree to a GE.

    No pressure on Magic Grandpa...
    I think you need to accept the will of the people.

    They voted for this parliament.
    _
  • verylonglegs
    verylonglegs Posts: 4,023
    I've lost count the number of times I've had to point out to people using the 'remainer parliament' line of attack that it was elected post referendum.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,308
    An extension will not make the issues disappear.
    An election will not make the issues disappear.
    Kicking the fan down the road.
    Loving the irony of tories saying Brexit is tearing labour apart.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Longshot
    Longshot Posts: 940
    Aarrgghh. My head hurts.

    As a Corbyn-hating, habitual Tory Remainer, I'm somewhat conflicted at the thought of a GE.
    You can fool some of the people all of the time. Concentrate on those people.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,301
    Loving the irony of the Tories moaning about Labour when it was the Tories who have been negotiating Brexit, the Tories who decided to have a referendum, the Tories who have inner problems, the Tories who contain an element called the ERG, the Tories who have had 2 successive unelected PM's (okay TM did win a General but had to get into bed with the DUP who have put the kibosh on any withdrawal agreements) etc etc.
    Boris wants to force a GE through because it's the Tories who don't have the numbers.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,119
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    Another play straight out of the Trump book with this threat to effectively shut down parliament if he doesn't get his GE and Javid on TV now blaming Corbyn.
    Corbyn can solve the problem by just agreeing to what they've been tryinng to get for a long time. Its not our problem that Labours standing in the polls is crap :)
    Turns out it is!
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,431
    I'm not sure I really understand what Downing Street are trying to achieve with this strategy.

    They seem to have reached the stage of being a dick for the sake of being a dick without realising that every time they've been a dick so far has backfired on them

    I'm not sure why the strategy isn't a more conciliatory one in order to progress their deal, though possibly they just don't know how to do that.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    TailWindHome wrote:
    I'm not sure I really understand what Downing Street are trying to achieve with this strategy.

    They seem to have reached the stage of being a dick for the sake of being a dick without realising that every time they've been a dick so far has backfired on them

    I'm not sure why the strategy isn't a more conciliatory one in order to progress their deal, though possibly they just don't know how to do that.

    Look at the polls.

    That's all they're measuring themselves against.
    _
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,887
    TailWindHome wrote:
    I'm not sure I really understand what Downing Street are trying to achieve with this strategy.

    They seem to have reached the stage of being a dick for the sake of being a dick without realising that every time they've been a dick so far has backfired on them

    I'm not sure why the strategy isn't a more conciliatory one in order to progress their deal, though possibly they just don't know how to do that.

    Two possibilities: (i) given loads of time, MPs will succeed in passing some wrecking amendments, and that the only way to pass the Brexit bill is either with a general election or with no deal as the alternative (ii) they are expecting Labour to turn down the election which may inspire the EU to only offer a short extension which would increase the chance of the Brexit deal passing and also damage Labour by making them look weak.

    I am not sure the timing works with the second option though especially if the EU are going to respond today.
  • robert88
    robert88 Posts: 2,696
    Longshot wrote:
    Aarrgghh. My head hurts.

    As a Corbyn-hating, habitual Tory Remainer, I'm somewhat conflicted at the thought of a GE.

    A Tory Remainer?!

    Your sort are the Scum of the Earth :evil:
  • Alejandrosdog
    Alejandrosdog Posts: 1,975
    TheBigBean wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    I'm not sure I really understand what Downing Street are trying to achieve with this strategy.

    They seem to have reached the stage of being a dick for the sake of being a dick without realising that every time they've been a dick so far has backfired on them

    I'm not sure why the strategy isn't a more conciliatory one in order to progress their deal, though possibly they just don't know how to do that.

    Two possibilities: (i) given loads of time, MPs will succeed in passing some wrecking amendments, and that the only way to pass the Brexit bill is either with a general election or with no deal as the alternative (ii) they are expecting Labour to turn down the election which may inspire the EU to only offer a short extension which would increase the chance of the Brexit deal passing and also damage Labour by making them look weak.

    I am not sure the timing works with the second option though especially if the EU are going to respond today.

    Yes, Boris is trying to force progress through a divided and stalling parliament. they might not like it but this is a situation of Parliaments making. They just don't like the medicine.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,354
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    Another play straight out of the Trump book with this threat to effectively shut down parliament if he doesn't get his GE and Javid on TV now blaming Corbyn.
    Corbyn can solve the problem by just agreeing to what they've been tryinng to get for a long time. Its not our problem that Labours standing in the polls is crap :)

    Although this might get a bit tricky as Labour have said no GE until there an extension, while the EU looks like they won't agree an extension until the deadlock in Westminster is broken - which needs Labour to agree to a GE.

    No pressure on Magic Grandpa...
    I think you need to accept the will of the people.

    They voted for this parliament.
    You of all people Rick (as an amateur politician) should appreciate the difference between direct democracy and representative democracy.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,137
    The vote of no confidence and temporary coalition option is still out there.

    Seems to me that the direction of travel is this deal or stay, actually. This deal because parliament votes for it and there's no confirmatory referendum (the myth is going around that a general election is like a second referendum, which it really isn't, not even slightly). Or this deal plus remain in a second referendum. The former is more likely, because as we know a second referendum is anti democratic because the will of the people 4 years earlier is the only will that matters and people don't change their will ever, and people knew fine well what they were voting for because it is well known that politicians are lying bastards so the people disregarded these bare faced lies and voted only for the true bits.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    Another play straight out of the Trump book with this threat to effectively shut down parliament if he doesn't get his GE and Javid on TV now blaming Corbyn.
    Corbyn can solve the problem by just agreeing to what they've been tryinng to get for a long time. Its not our problem that Labours standing in the polls is crap :)

    Although this might get a bit tricky as Labour have said no GE until there an extension, while the EU looks like they won't agree an extension until the deadlock in Westminster is broken - which needs Labour to agree to a GE.

    No pressure on Magic Grandpa...
    I think you need to accept the will of the people.

    They voted for this parliament.
    You of all people Rick (as an amateur politician) should appreciate the difference between direct democracy and representative democracy.

    It's almost like I'm saying it for effect to make a point, isn't it?
    _
  • coopster_the_1st
    coopster_the_1st Posts: 5,158
    Alejandrosdog wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    I'm not sure I really understand what Downing Street are trying to achieve with this strategy.

    They seem to have reached the stage of being a dick for the sake of being a dick without realising that every time they've been a dick so far has backfired on them

    I'm not sure why the strategy isn't a more conciliatory one in order to progress their deal, though possibly they just don't know how to do that.

    Two possibilities: (i) given loads of time, MPs will succeed in passing some wrecking amendments, and that the only way to pass the Brexit bill is either with a general election or with no deal as the alternative (ii) they are expecting Labour to turn down the election which may inspire the EU to only offer a short extension which would increase the chance of the Brexit deal passing and also damage Labour by making them look weak.

    I am not sure the timing works with the second option though especially if the EU are going to respond today.

    Yes, Boris is trying to force progress through a divided and stalling parliament. they might not like it but this is a situation of Parliaments making. They just don't like the medicine.

    The point in bold is absolutely spot on. MP's have gone one step further than trying to undermine each other and for the last 2.5 years have been undermining the electorate. Those MP's are now scared of facing their judgement day!
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,431
    Coopster the 1st wrote:
    Alejandrosdog wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    I'm not sure I really understand what Downing Street are trying to achieve with this strategy.

    They seem to have reached the stage of being a dick for the sake of being a dick without realising that every time they've been a dick so far has backfired on them

    I'm not sure why the strategy isn't a more conciliatory one in order to progress their deal, though possibly they just don't know how to do that.

    Two possibilities: (i) given loads of time, MPs will succeed in passing some wrecking amendments, and that the only way to pass the Brexit bill is either with a general election or with no deal as the alternative (ii) they are expecting Labour to turn down the election which may inspire the EU to only offer a short extension which would increase the chance of the Brexit deal passing and also damage Labour by making them look weak.

    I am not sure the timing works with the second option though especially if the EU are going to respond today.

    Yes, Boris is trying to force progress through a divided and stalling parliament. they might not like it but this is a situation of Parliaments making. They just don't like the medicine.

    The point in bold is absolutely spot on. MP's have gone one step further than trying to undermine each other and for the last 2.5 years have been undermining the electorate. Those MP's are now scared of facing their judgement day!


    How can he 'force' progress while sitting on the deal?
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,119
    The Conservative leadership decided a long time ago that trying to get cross party support for it is not in their electoral interests and have stuck with it while their party tore itself apart over it. There is a deal that could get through parliament but they don't want it. Because of the decision to place party over country (and over Brexit), they've successfully made the whole thing toxic. It's all their own fault.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,887
    EU says length of extension to be decided on Mon/Tues. Presumably after the vote for a GE. Option ii of mine above.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,119
    If the government decides not to sulk and not put any business to the house, is there anything to stop the house taking control again and just getting on with things?
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,887
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    If the government decides not to sulk and not put any business to the house, is there anything to stop the house taking control again and just getting on with things?

    There's no emergency, there will be a new speaker and the house can't agree on anything anyway.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,119
    TheBigBean wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    If the government decides to sulk and not put any business to the house, is there anything to stop the house taking control again and just getting on with things?

    There's no emergency, there will be a new speaker and the house can't agree on anything anyway.

    So only when there's still nothing happening in January then, and they need to make the traditional request.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,431
    Tom Newton Dunn
    @tnewtondunn
    · 42m
    That No10 threat to go on strike by putting nothing more before Parliament if an election isn’t agreed? It’s off. Only Brexit legislation will be held back. PM spokesman: “He has a domestic agenda. We want to deliver for the British public”.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!

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