BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

robert88

Rolf F wrote:

bompington wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

orraloon wrote:

So, what are the benefits to the dUK of these ToryBoys driving this exit of the EU? Economic, financial, social? Just seeking some actual real numbers. Never mind the bolloxs. Anyone?

Allegedly the new deal omits workers rights protection.
Surprised?
Oh, and the Tories just voted against protecting the NHS from privatisation so you know where that is heading.

The fetishisation of the NHS is a strange, strange thing. And so is the horror at the idea of any kind of privatisation of the NHS.

Have you ever been to a GP? You do know that the vast majority of GPs are private contractors, don't you?

Or take the (almost all superior) health systems in other western European countries - they all have a higher proportion of private practice than here: a 10 second google reveals, for example, that 20% of all Swedish hospital care is private.

Of course there are legitimate worries about what kind of private companies will get contracts. But that's a matter of governance: and I don't disagree that Brexit (and the people pushing it) may well be prone to letting predatory companies in.

But people seem to assume that the only alternative to the NHS as it is now is the US system: simply not true.

The concept that something works in Sweden means that it could work here is, I fear, woefully misguided....... We'd screw it up. Deep down you know this (hopefully).

True dat.

tailwindhome

TailWindHome wrote:

Robert88 wrote:

Firms in Northern Ireland will have to submit declaration forms for goods heading to the rest of the UK, under the government's deal.

Brexit Secretary Steve Barclay was forced to make the admission after initially denying it was the case.

This followed previous assurances that Northern Ireland-GB trade would be "unfettered".

Reported just a few minutes ago.

Does it inspire confidence in their ability to fix a deal by 31st? Seriously?

It's not the GB NI declarations that are causing the problem
It's that they don't seem to know what's in their own agreement or the impact of it and can't get their story straight.

Barclay floundering in answering an urgent question on this.

bompington

Rolf F wrote:

The concept that something works in Sweden means that it could work here is, I fear, woefully misguided....... We'd screw it up. Deep down you know this (hopefully).

Well obvs, but I hoped it was also obvious that wasn't the point I was making - more that any talk of privatising the NHS is taken to mean we must have a bunch of fascist robber baron neoliberal capitalistic pigs here, something you wouldn't generally accuse the Swedes of being.

Longshot

Thank goodness we're getting that £350M a week back soon, It can cover this:

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/ ... 3zTwfD15W0

The National Audit Office concluded that the ads are ineffective because they're trying to address issues that are not "manageable or resolvable".

pblakeney

bompington wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

orraloon wrote:

So, what are the benefits to the dUK of these ToryBoys driving this exit of the EU? Economic, financial, social? Just seeking some actual real numbers. Never mind the bolloxs. Anyone?

Allegedly the new deal omits workers rights protection.
Surprised?
Oh, and the Tories just voted against protecting the NHS from privatisation so you know where that is heading.

The fetishisation of the NHS is a strange, strange thing. And so is the horror at the idea of any kind of privatisation of the NHS.

Have you ever been to a GP? You do know that the vast majority of GPs are private contractors, don't you?

Or take the (almost all superior) health systems in other western European countries - they all have a higher proportion of private practice than here: a 10 second google reveals, for example, that 20% of all Swedish hospital care is private.

Of course there are legitimate worries about what kind of private companies will get contracts. But that's a matter of governance: and I don't disagree that Brexit (and the people pushing it) may well be prone to letting predatory companies in.

But people seem to assume that the only alternative to the NHS as it is now is the US system: simply not true.

Not news to me about GPs being private, no.
The concern is more about payments than administration. Look at who has what finger in what pie and the concern is that we are heading towards an American style private insurance healthcare where you pay or suffer.
I believe that this concern is real but I will be happy if proven wrong.
Who will benefit is answering directly to Orraloon's question.

pblakeney

john80 wrote:

The process for leaving is that all current eu rules are transferred to uk law. So if we take workers rights for example you would have the same rights as before unless.

A minority tory government manages to get amendments into the legislation which seems unlikely given their current win rate and general timescales. Post brexit they bring legislation to parliament to erode workers rights which again they would have to get through parliament.

Ironically brexit and the current parliamentary numbers gives labour, snp and lid dems the opportunity to put in place significant changes to increase workers rights that the tories would struggle to stop. It actually makes sense to give parliament full flexibility going forwards by not commiting ourselves to matching the eu on large areas of policy. Hardly taking back control is it?

Those rights were included as protected in the previous version of the deal.
A cynical person would question why they were removed in Boris' version.
Take back control? Have you seen how Westminster handles responsibility recently?

Stevo_666

KingstonGraham wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Alejandrosdog wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Longshot wrote:

This is what happens when you let people have opinions.

A lot of this thread appears to involve complaining about that very point.

It's ok. Once Comrade Corbyn has taken power and the scum have been bankrupted and thrown on the street there will be no dissent.

My cunning plan to stop them is still working. Let's hope I've done enough...

I hate to point it out again, but a better way to prevent the rise of Corbyn would have been not voting for him. You were attacking the relative moderates, not the extremists.

Them = Labour. See the thread I started on it if you need more details...

elbowloh

bompington wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

The concept that something works in Sweden means that it could work here is, I fear, woefully misguided....... We'd screw it up. Deep down you know this (hopefully).

Well obvs, but I hoped it was also obvious that wasn't the point I was making - more that any talk of privatising the NHS is taken to mean we must have a bunch of fascist robber baron neoliberal capitalistic pigs here, something you wouldn't generally accuse the Swedes of being.

That's because no one would dream of doing that in Sweden, whereas here the wolves are at the door already.

On another note, Sweden has average income tax rates of 44% and go as high as 60%.

pblakeney

ddraver wrote:

No Brexit next week...

https://twitter.com/PARLYapp/status/118 ... 04704?s=19

Without wanting to join in the bleating up there, a good opposition would point out that apparently the government isn't in so much of a rush then...

So, the Government's current plan for the day after Brexit is to take a long weekend off? :evil:

bompington

elbowloh wrote:

That's because no one would dream of doing that in Sweden

No, of course nobody in Sweden would dream of having 20% of hospital care in the private sector :roll:

kingstongraham

PBlakeney wrote:

ddraver wrote:

No Brexit next week...

https://twitter.com/PARLYapp/status/118 ... 04704?s=19

Without wanting to join in the bleating up there, a good opposition would point out that apparently the government isn't in so much of a rush then...

So, the Government's current plan for the day after Brexit is to take a long weekend off? :evil:

It's a common theme: https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-n ... t-20669423

ddraver

I would suspect the Sunday morning shows will be the setting for another blitz of bullsh*t...

(World Cup Final tho...)

bompington

Like this:

The Speccie wrote:

...after CCHQ’s press office criticised [Osborne's] coverage of Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal. The Standard had accused the government of peddling ‘fake news’, when it claimed that Boris’s Brexit bill had been ‘passed’ by parliament. In fact, the bill had only passed its second reading, suggesting in principle that it had the Commons’ support.

After CCHQ objected to the coverage, claiming the paper’s story was ‘simply not true’, Osborne responded personally on social media, saying:

‘I think you’ll find the Evening Standard team know the difference between a bill passing its second reading in the Commons and a bill passing Parliament. I know it’s been a while since the latter happened, but I’m happy to come in and explain how it’s done.’

rick_chasey

bompington wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

The concept that something works in Sweden means that it could work here is, I fear, woefully misguided....... We'd screw it up. Deep down you know this (hopefully).

Well obvs, but I hoped it was also obvious that wasn't the point I was making - more that any talk of privatising the NHS is taken to mean we must have a bunch of fascist robber baron neoliberal capitalistic pigs here, something you wouldn't generally accuse the Swedes of being.

In fairness, those who are suggesting privatisation are gunning for US style not continental style.

bompington

Rick Chasey wrote:

bompington wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

The concept that something works in Sweden means that it could work here is, I fear, woefully misguided....... We'd screw it up. Deep down you know this (hopefully).

Well obvs, but I hoped it was also obvious that wasn't the point I was making - more that any talk of privatising the NHS is taken to mean we must have a bunch of fascist robber baron neoliberal capitalistic pigs here, something you wouldn't generally accuse the Swedes of being.

In fairness, those who are suggesting privatisation are gunning for US style not continental style.

As acknowledged, and I wasn't disagreeing with the original point: just commenting on the way all our political debate has become little more than tribalised gut reactions to the baddies.

Pross

PBlakeney wrote:

bompington wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

orraloon wrote:

So, what are the benefits to the dUK of these ToryBoys driving this exit of the EU? Economic, financial, social? Just seeking some actual real numbers. Never mind the bolloxs. Anyone?

Allegedly the new deal omits workers rights protection.
Surprised?
Oh, and the Tories just voted against protecting the NHS from privatisation so you know where that is heading.

The fetishisation of the NHS is a strange, strange thing. And so is the horror at the idea of any kind of privatisation of the NHS.

Have you ever been to a GP? You do know that the vast majority of GPs are private contractors, don't you?

Or take the (almost all superior) health systems in other western European countries - they all have a higher proportion of private practice than here: a 10 second google reveals, for example, that 20% of all Swedish hospital care is private.

Of course there are legitimate worries about what kind of private companies will get contracts. But that's a matter of governance: and I don't disagree that Brexit (and the people pushing it) may well be prone to letting predatory companies in.

But people seem to assume that the only alternative to the NHS as it is now is the US system: simply not true.

Not news to me about GPs being private, no.
The concern is more about payments than administration. Look at who has what finger in what pie and the concern is that we are heading towards an American style private insurance healthcare where you pay or suffer.
I believe that this concern is real but I will be happy if proven wrong.
Who will benefit is answering directly to Orraloon's question.

Surely any Party that tried to bring in a US style health service would be booted out at the next election? Other than the really well off I don't see even the most right wing voters accepting being in a position where they are paying at the point of service for healthcare. It's always been a scare tactic that Labour have thrown out but even if Tory ministers really want to do it for either ideological reasons or personal gain I still think they would be too aware that it would be political suicide.

veronese68

A strange thing happened in the office today. A brexiteer was waving a letter around he had received from a supplier saying they were a company after his own heart as they wouldn't be putting prices up even in the event of a no deal brexit. I then read the letter. It said that WTO tariffs are 4.5% but they didn't think they would come in before the end of next year. It then went on to say that aside from any other changes caused by brexit they were putting their prices up by x%. So it actually said the complete opposite of what the plum was bragging about. I showed him the relevant sentences and asked if he had read it. He said he had, but his take on it was different to mine.
No wonder we're fooked.

pblakeney

@Pross ^^^We are already part way down the road by stealth.
Paving the way for American insurance companies to step in once we’ve done a post Brexit “wonderful” deal with Trump.
Happy to be proven wrong.

coopster_the_1st

Jez mon wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Alejandrosdog wrote:

Jez mon wrote:

The interesting part is working out how the polls turn into seats right?

I suspect that upon an election being called, a sufficiently soft position on brexit or a policy to have another referendum would result in labour climbing. The Conservatives were the grown up and responsible party, but have let a internal issue grind biritish politics to a halt for 3 years. What do they have to pursuade floating voters? Not a lot.

it might be that whilst they're generally unappealing the alternative is far worse....

Yep. If someone on here can point to a better alternative that has a hope in hell of getting elected, then we can consider that.

Or do you actually think the Conservatives have done a good job.

In hindsight the Conservatives abandoned their voters in the 3 years following the referendum so they were terrible. Easy to explain now with the senior ministers in place at the time.

Fortunately TBP came along and realigned the Conservative MP views with those of their electorate and since then they have done much better and shown leadership. The polls also reflect this

It requires one further GE to cleanse parliament and I will enjoy playing my part in this

kingstongraham

Coopster the 1st wrote:

In hindsight the Conservatives abandoned their voters in the 3 years following the referendum so they were terrible. Easy to explain now with the senior ministers in place at the time.

Fortunately TBP came along and realigned the Conservative MP views with those of their electorate and since then they have done much better and shown leadership. The polls also reflect this

It requires one further GE to cleanse parliament and I will enjoy playing my part in this

42% of Conservative voters voted remain in the referendum according to Lord Ashcroft's poll.

Longshot

Coopster the 1st wrote:

cleanse

Your roots are showing

TheBigBean

elbowloh wrote:

On another note, Sweden has average income tax rates of 44% and go as high as 60%.

The UK's peaks at 62%. That's ignoring employer's NI, student loans and probably other stuff.

I would imagine that overall Sweden's is much higher though.

john80

PBlakeney wrote:

john80 wrote:

The process for leaving is that all current eu rules are transferred to uk law. So if we take workers rights for example you would have the same rights as before unless.

A minority tory government manages to get amendments into the legislation which seems unlikely given their current win rate and general timescales. Post brexit they bring legislation to parliament to erode workers rights which again they would have to get through parliament.

Ironically brexit and the current parliamentary numbers gives labour, snp and lid dems the opportunity to put in place significant changes to increase workers rights that the tories would struggle to stop. It actually makes sense to give parliament full flexibility going forwards by not commiting ourselves to matching the eu on large areas of policy. Hardly taking back control is it?

Those rights were included as protected in the previous version of the deal.
A cynical person would question why they were removed in Boris' version.
Take back control? Have you seen how Westminster handles responsibility recently?

I have certainly seen how they have managed to make leaving pretty difficult. We have a parliamentary system that is long standing and I am yet to see a bigger is better style of government anywhere in the world protecting citizens rights. America, china, russia, india. Not exactly shining themselves in glory. There is probably an optimum size of state for democracy where politicians are integrated in society and unable to hide from their actions. I woukd argue the uk is in this sweet spot albeit possibly at the upper end in terms of population.

coopster_the_1st

KingstonGraham wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

In hindsight the Conservatives abandoned their voters in the 3 years following the referendum so they were terrible. Easy to explain now with the senior ministers in place at the time.

Fortunately TBP came along and realigned the Conservative MP views with those of their electorate and since then they have done much better and shown leadership. The polls also reflect this

It requires one further GE to cleanse parliament and I will enjoy playing my part in this

42% of Conservative voters voted remain in the referendum according to Lord Ashcroft's poll.

Yet it was TBP that did the damage to their voter base and realigned the Conservative parliamentary party.

kingstongraham

Coopster the 1st wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

In hindsight the Conservatives abandoned their voters in the 3 years following the referendum so they were terrible. Easy to explain now with the senior ministers in place at the time.

Fortunately TBP came along and realigned the Conservative MP views with those of their electorate and since then they have done much better and shown leadership. The polls also reflect this

It requires one further GE to cleanse parliament and I will enjoy playing my part in this

42% of Conservative voters voted remain in the referendum according to Lord Ashcroft's poll.

Yet it was TBP that did the damage to their voter base and realigned the Conservative parliamentary party.

TBP didn't exist at the time of the referendum

tailwindhome

TailWindHome wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Robert88 wrote:

Firms in Northern Ireland will have to submit declaration forms for goods heading to the rest of the UK, under the government's deal.

Brexit Secretary Steve Barclay was forced to make the admission after initially denying it was the case.

This followed previous assurances that Northern Ireland-GB trade would be "unfettered".

Reported just a few minutes ago.

Does it inspire confidence in their ability to fix a deal by 31st? Seriously?

It's not the GB NI declarations that are causing the problem
It's that they don't seem to know what's in their own agreement or the impact of it and can't get their story straight.

Barclay floundering in answering an urgent question on this.

Alex Wickham
@alexwickham
NEW from
@AlbertoNardelli
:

Boris Johnson personally raised the controversial Northern Irish export forms issue in a call with Juncker the morning the deal was agreed

Juncker said it couldn't be renegotiated

Johnson folded in a second call 90mins later

Stevo_666

PBlakeney wrote:

@Pross ^^^We are already part way down the road by stealth.
Paving the way for American insurance companies to step in once we’ve done a post Brexit “wonderful” deal with Trump.
Happy to be proven wrong.

What evidence do you have that this is going to happen?

TheBigBean

Chuka Umunna thinks an election is the only way forward. It may be good for the Lib Dems, but I really can't see him winning his new seat.

Longshot

TheBigBean wrote:

Chuka Umunna thinks an election is the only way forward. It may be good for the Lib Dems, but I really can't see him winning his new seat.

Shame. He's actually one of the few politicians I can bear watch being interviewed. he tends to come across more straightforward and honest than most of them.

If he stood for a proper party I'd say he had a real chance of being PM one day.

Having said that, given he's the David Owen of the current millennium he could still end up somewhere else yet.

Stevo_666

May not be time for a GE before the deal needs voting though if Macron does what he did last time and vetoes a longer extension:-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50171649