BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

cycleclinic

That fixes parliament act is a chain round our necks

john80

TailWindHome wrote:

Tom Newton Dunn
@tnewtondunn
·
2h
Sir Nicholas Soames tells me he will vote against the Govt tonight, unless the PM (who he’s going to see now) can assure him a Brexit deal will be done. Boris therefore faces the uncomfortable prospect of deselecting Winston Churchill’s grandson.

He wants a party to a negotiation where until the very last minute there is always the possibility of no deal to assure him that there cannot be a no deal. Takes a special kind of person to even bother with the meeting with those requirements being required prior to the meeting. Winston might be questioning who the father is at this point.

cycleclinic

rjsterry wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

All the legislation being put forward does is stop no deal on the 31st October. the PM could then say well we'll do it on the 1st November. The legisilation does not grant an extension. Therefore it does not stop no deal. It is pointless. A more careful read is required I think.

The Opposition should be putting a vote of no confidence in. all those for that should then agree JC or other MP (JC should not be so proud here) as PM based on a condidence and supply agreement that mandates him to get an extension, get all brexit legistation through parliment and set an election date. I.e no corbynomics. That is within the current rules of parliment. the lection is held and parties have to state clearly what they are for. Lib Dems we know, Greens we know, Conservative we know, brexit party we know, SNP we know, DUP we know, Labour we dont. There should be a majority for leave or remain in that and remain means revoke article 50. It back to being binary again as it always was. If that does not pass then it because the opposition to no deal is too fractured to be effective and they deserve then to fail.

What being done today is pointless and is upending the way parliemnt work with unforseen consequences which may not be benign.

I think they might have thought it through a little more than you suggest.

they did not think throught the no progouge ammemendment in july. The goverment still found a work around. I will read throught the bill later. I am interested in others thoughts on what it actually stops and what work around the goverment has. Labour wont agree to an GE so BOjo does not have that get put until no deal s prevented and an extension is agreed. This is more limbo.

Cooper the 1st. The goverment cant prouge until Oct31st because the ammendent passed by the house in July that forces the parliement to sit every two week from mid occtober till decemeber for updates on the formation of the NI assembly.
yes dirty tricks all round everyone is too desperate.

TheBigBean

thecycleclinic wrote:

That fixes parliament act is a chain round our necks

They can repeal it or amend it like any other legislation, but I suspect there is no appetite for that at the moment.

cycleclinic

bompington wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

Remoaners are now playing dirty so I see no reason why he does not sink to their level and beat them a their own game

Please explain what "Remoaners"* are doing that is actually "dirty", i.e. illegal or unconstitutional?

taking control of the order paper is a "dirty trick" as it requires changing house proceedures done for the first tim on March 27th. As our constituation is based mostly on ceonvention then it possible to establish new conventions but that is still a constitutional change, although not an illegial one. Same with prouging parliment. Its a constitutional change wih respect to convention but possibly not ilegal but that point remains to be verified.

There are normally days set aside for the opposition to propose bills and days for back benchers to propose bills. Thats about 40 sitting days I think I can look up the correct number later. The simple fact is the opposition could not get it together on those days so had to get some extra at the last minute in blind panic. This is what annoyies the most. The train is about to crash, you can see the problem 3 years ahead and what do we do squable and the last moment apply to have more track laid so we can squablle more and then when the crash looms again try to apply to get more track laid again.

When will it end............

cycleclinic

TheBigBean wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

That fixes parliament act is a chain round our necks

They can repeal it or amend it like any other legislation, but I suspect there is no appetite for that at the moment.

MAinly because the goverment would have to propose that change and the act keeps a week government in power so there is no incentive to change. Its like PR, we got it now for good.

john80

Rick Chasey wrote:

So no alternatives on the backstop yet?

That is the UK’s real weakness in its bargaining position.

The EU's insistence that a backstop is required is the true masterstroke of the EU and the remainers. Britain has been stuck in a bind for three years trying to sort out a riddle where the EU is the judge and rule maker of the answer. The UK's position should have been quite simply we are not putting up a border but will insist that all goods and services crossing the border have the right paperwork. Failure on the part of businesses are prosecuted. With regards to people if you have a British or Irish passport in accordance with the GFA you are fine. If you are a EU migrant and have not completed the required paperwork for being in Norther Ireland then you are treated in the same way as any other undocumented migrant. You don't need a border for this just some sensible domestic laws on how to deal with breaches. #itsbeingmadedliberatelyhard

TheBigBean

Philip Lee crosses the floor. Minority government.

bompington

john80 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So no alternatives on the backstop yet?

That is the UK’s real weakness in its bargaining position.

The EU's insistence that a backstop is required is the true masterstroke of the EU and the remainers. Britain has been stuck in a bind for three years trying to sort out a riddle where the EU is the judge and rule maker of the answer. The UK's position should have been quite simply we are not putting up a border but will insist that all goods and services crossing the border have the right paperwork. Failure on the part of businesses are prosecuted. With regards to people if you have a British or Irish passport in accordance with the GFA you are fine. If you are a EU migrant and have not completed the required paperwork for being in Norther Ireland then you are treated in the same way as any other undocumented migrant. You don't need a border for this just some sensible domestic laws on how to deal with breaches. #itsbeingmadedliberatelyhard

Darn! It was so simple all along and none of us noticed!

kingstongraham

thecycleclinic wrote:

The train is about to crash, you can see the problem 3 years ahead and what do we do squable and the last moment apply to have more track laid so we can squablle more and then when the crash looms again try to apply to get more track laid again.

When will it end............

In this analogy, at the last moment deciding not to lay more track because we're all bored would seem to be unwise.

kingrollo

TheBigBean wrote:

Philip Lee crosses the floor. Minority government.

GE now surley. ???

tailwindhome

Coopster the 1st wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

So Johnson said "there are no circumstances in which I will ask Brussels to delay."

What happens if the rebel bill goes through and is law mandating the PM to go and ask for a delay, and also he is not granted a general election under the FTPA? Does he resign?

He does not ask for the delay, it is in the PM's gift, so waits for the VONC...

Or

He prorogues parliament in the immediate aftermath of not being granted a GE by parliament until after 31st Oct.


I'm sure these and other scenarios have already been war gamed by his team.

Remoaners are now playing dirty so I see no reason why he does not sink to their level and beat them a their own game

A PM/Govt refusing to comply with the law and/or shutting down parliament is not the same as backbench MPs insisting that elected representatives have a say in the Brexit process.

tailwindhome

john80 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So no alternatives on the backstop yet?

That is the UK’s real weakness in its bargaining position.

The EU's insistence that a backstop is required is the true masterstroke of the EU and the remainers. Britain has been stuck in a bind for three years trying to sort out a riddle where the EU is the judge and rule maker of the answer. The UK's position should have been quite simply we are not putting up a border but will insist that all goods and services crossing the border have the right paperwork. Failure on the part of businesses are prosecuted. With regards to people if you have a British or Irish passport in accordance with the GFA you are fine. If you are a EU migrant and have not completed the required paperwork for being in Norther Ireland then you are treated in the same way as any other undocumented migrant. You don't need a border for this just some sensible domestic laws on how to deal with breaches. #itsbeingmadedliberatelyhard

Cool plan.

kingstongraham

Coopster the 1st wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

So Johnson said "there are no circumstances in which I will ask Brussels to delay."

What happens if the rebel bill goes through and is law mandating the PM to go and ask for a delay, and also he is not granted a general election under the FTPA? Does he resign?

He does not ask for the delay, it is in the PM's gift, so waits for the VONC...

If you'd read the bill, you'd have seen this was not the case. Amazingly, they thought of that.

kingstongraham

TailWindHome wrote:

john80 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So no alternatives on the backstop yet?

That is the UK’s real weakness in its bargaining position.

The EU's insistence that a backstop is required is the true masterstroke of the EU and the remainers. Britain has been stuck in a bind for three years trying to sort out a riddle where the EU is the judge and rule maker of the answer. The UK's position should have been quite simply we are not putting up a border but will insist that all goods and services crossing the border have the right paperwork. Failure on the part of businesses are prosecuted. With regards to people if you have a British or Irish passport in accordance with the GFA you are fine. If you are a EU migrant and have not completed the required paperwork for being in Norther Ireland then you are treated in the same way as any other undocumented migrant. You don't need a border for this just some sensible domestic laws on how to deal with breaches. #itsbeingmadedliberatelyhard

Cool plan.

They should have thought of insisting.

rjsterry

TailWindHome wrote:

john80 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So no alternatives on the backstop yet?

That is the UK’s real weakness in its bargaining position.

The EU's insistence that a backstop is required is the true masterstroke of the EU and the remainers. Britain has been stuck in a bind for three years trying to sort out a riddle where the EU is the judge and rule maker of the answer. The UK's position should have been quite simply we are not putting up a border but will insist that all goods and services crossing the border have the right paperwork. Failure on the part of businesses are prosecuted. With regards to people if you have a British or Irish passport in accordance with the GFA you are fine. If you are a EU migrant and have not completed the required paperwork for being in Norther Ireland then you are treated in the same way as any other undocumented migrant. You don't need a border for this just some sensible domestic laws on how to deal with breaches. #itsbeingmadedliberatelyhard

Cool plan.

We'll have a fully staffed office of 500 based in Wolverhampton, who will be insisting around the clock, seven days a week, in shifts. There will be so much insistence.

Stevo_666

kingrollo wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Philip Lee crosses the floor. Minority government.

GE now surley. ???

Probably. Let's see what happens when the anti no deal bill is voted on.l

kingstongraham

It's going to end up with Boris voting that he has no confidence in himself, and Corbyn voting to keep him there, isn't it?

Ben6899

TheBigBean wrote:

Philip Lee crosses the floor. Minority government.

*Coopster prepares horse's head*

cougie

john80 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So no alternatives on the backstop yet?

That is the UK’s real weakness in its bargaining position.

The EU's insistence that a backstop is required is the true masterstroke of the EU and the remainers. Britain has been stuck in a bind for three years trying to sort out a riddle where the EU is the judge and rule maker of the answer. The UK's position should have been quite simply we are not putting up a border but will insist that all goods and services crossing the border have the right paperwork. Failure on the part of businesses are prosecuted. With regards to people if you have a British or Irish passport in accordance with the GFA you are fine. If you are a EU migrant and have not completed the required paperwork for being in Norther Ireland then you are treated in the same way as any other undocumented migrant. You don't need a border for this just some sensible domestic laws on how to deal with breaches. #itsbeingmadedliberatelyhard

Have you been to Northern Ireland ?

It's not like there's one road into Ireland. There's over 300. Not to mention buildings that straddle the border.

#areyoubeingdeliberatelydense

Stevo_666

KingstonGraham wrote:

It's going to end up with Boris voting that he has no confidence in himself, and Corbyn voting to keep him there, isn't it?

That's is possible. Depends if Corbyn resists the temptation of a GE as he still seems to think he can win it.

tailwindhome

tailwindhome

Stevo 666 wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

It's going to end up with Boris voting that he has no confidence in himself, and Corbyn voting to keep him there, isn't it?

That's is possible. Depends if Corbyn resists the temptation of a GE as he still seems to think he can win it.

Not sure which commentator said it:

Corbyn has a problem now, his entire Brexit policy was to force an election, if there is an election, what's his Brexit policy?

tailwindhome

Rick Chasey wrote:

So no alternatives on the backstop yet?

That is the UK’s real weakness in its bargaining position.

Head's up

https://twitter.com/JP_Biz/status/1168898174158852098

hopkinb

cougie wrote:

john80 wrote:

...some asinine guff...

Have you been to Northern Ireland ?

It's not like there's one road into Ireland. There's over 300. Not to mention buildings that straddle the border.

#areyoubeingdeliberatelydense

john80 has form in being deliberately dense.

tailwindhome

And

Tom McTague
@TomMcTague
·
2m
Very interesting move. Nigel Dodds asks Boris Johnson to arrange talks between the DUP and Irish government. An important first step in what will have to be a heavily choreographed dance toward compromise, involving the UK taking a risk first—& Ireland following suit

TheBigBean

TailWindHome wrote:

And

Tom McTague
@TomMcTague
·
2m
Very interesting move. Nigel Dodds asks Boris Johnson to arrange talks between the DUP and Irish government. An important first step in what will have to be a heavily choreographed dance toward compromise, involving the UK taking a risk first—& Ireland following suit

He also said that he had been asking the Irish government for two years.

kingrollo

TailWindHome wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

It's going to end up with Boris voting that he has no confidence in himself, and Corbyn voting to keep him there, isn't it?

That's is possible. Depends if Corbyn resists the temptation of a GE as he still seems to think he can win it.

Not sure which commentator said it:

Corbyn has a problem now, his entire Brexit policy was to force an election, if there is an election, what's his Brexit policy?

2nd referendum (rightly or wrongly)

I wouldn't expect labour to win - But I can feel an anti Boris alliance forming - who knows what that could lead too.

darkhairedlord

OK, so Boris has been on about how they are negotiating with the EU.
Then this..... "There is no point in having a negotiation as long as there is a risk that Parliament will make that negotiation impossible," replies Boris Johnson.
so there has been nothing!

tailwindhome

TheBigBean wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

And

Tom McTague
@TomMcTague
·
2m
Very interesting move. Nigel Dodds asks Boris Johnson to arrange talks between the DUP and Irish government. An important first step in what will have to be a heavily choreographed dance toward compromise, involving the UK taking a risk first—& Ireland following suit

He also said that he had been asking the Irish government for two years.

Aye.
He knows it's a UK EU matter.
He's not invited to the talks with Barnier and Weyand either.


A interesting question is 'In what capacity would the DUP be meeting the Irish government for talks?'

Also - if the backstop breachs the GFA on cross community grounds - how can he justify talks only involving 1 party from 1 side of the community?