BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

rjsterry

Ballysmate wrote:

Stevo, there is a cadre of people who feel that the government is there to, well, govern and should not burden the people with questions on what to do.
When the government does just that, the same people squeal that they have no mandate.

What was that phrase that is quite popular? That's it, "Cake and eat it"

Nope. It's not a question of what anyone wants it's the foundation of our constitution. Parliament is sovereign and is supreme over the government. The government only governs as long as it maintains the confidence of the House of Commons. Johnson is just seeing what he can get away with.

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Stevo, there is a cadre of people who feel that the government is there to, well, govern and should not burden the people with questions on what to do.
When the government does just that, the same people squeal that they have no mandate.

What was that phrase that is quite popular? That's it, "Cake and eat it"

Nope. It's not a question of what anyone wants it's the foundation of our constitution. Parliament is sovereign and is supreme over the government. The government only governs as long as it maintains the confidence of the House of Commons. Johnson is just seeing what he can get away with.

Let's see what happens this week then.

Hope you are enjoying the cadre

tailwindhome

Robert88 wrote:

Oh, and Ireland of course. We don't need Ireland, any of it.

You don't. But you know the old saying, 'you break it you bought it'

tailwindhome

Another David Allen Green thread.

Brexit, the Tories, and the Constitution

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/sta ... 6605857792

tailwindhome

Polling in NI suggesting that 3 of the DUPs 10 seats are under threat from the Alliance Party (Remain/Middle ground/Progressives)

This would be a huge moment in NI politics - Alliance have only ever had 1 MP for 1 term

(not sure I buy it tbh)

tailwindhome

Alex Wickham
@alexwickham
Confirmed: No10 has decided Philip Hammond, David Gauke, Dominic Grieve and co will have the Conservative whip withdrawn if they do not vote with the government on Tuesday

Rory Stewart
@RoryStewartUK
·
1m
Replying to
@alexwickham
And me too I hope

:shock:

Stevo_666

TailWindHome wrote:

Robert88 wrote:

Oh, and Ireland of course. We don't need Ireland, any of it.

You don't. But you know the old saying, 'you break it you bought it'

Buying ROI might be a solution to the border problem, if a little Trump-esque.

ballysmate

Stevo 666 wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Robert88 wrote:

Oh, and Ireland of course. We don't need Ireland, any of it.

You don't. But you know the old saying, 'you break it you bought it'

Buying ROI might be a solution to the border problem, if a little Trump-esque.

It would give them the united Ireland that they so desire.

Stevo_666

Ballysmate wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Robert88 wrote:

Oh, and Ireland of course. We don't need Ireland, any of it.

You don't. But you know the old saying, 'you break it you bought it'

Buying ROI might be a solution to the border problem, if a little Trump-esque.

It would give them the united Ireland that they so desire.

Well the Irish are happy with an open border with the UK and pooling of sovereignty, so I don't see what the problem would be.

tailwindhome

Stevo 666 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Robert88 wrote:

Oh, and Ireland of course. We don't need Ireland, any of it.

You don't. But you know the old saying, 'you break it you bought it'

Buying ROI might be a solution to the border problem, if a little Trump-esque.

It would give them the united Ireland that they so desire.

Well the Irish are happy with an open border with the UK and pooling of sovereignty, so I don't see what the problem would be.

No.
You'll tidy up the country you have before you get another.

tailwindhome

orraloon

https://mobile.twitter.com/bydonkeys/st ... 10785?s=21

Nice.

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Stevo, there is a cadre of people who feel that the government is there to, well, govern and should not burden the people with questions on what to do.
When the government does just that, the same people squeal that they have no mandate.

What was that phrase that is quite popular? That's it, "Cake and eat it"

Nope. It's not a question of what anyone wants it's the foundation of our constitution. Parliament is sovereign and is supreme over the government. The government only governs as long as it maintains the confidence of the House of Commons. Johnson is just seeing what he can get away with.

Let's see what happens this week then.

Hope you are enjoying the cadre

It cuts both ways: the 2nd ref claims that the decision should go back to the people (which Corbyn has suddenly decided he supports) are just as wrong as the claims that parliament *must* implement the referendum result. Parliament can do what it likes and it's for parliament to rein in Johnson, if enough of them think he's crossed a line. I'm sure Johnson, Cummings and da Costa know they are sailing close to the wind, but they've (I suspect correctly) that Joe Public isn't too bothered about the constitution. Plus they've not got much to lose, so they may as well try something radical. The longer term concern is not Brexit but the precedent it sets if he succeeds. Parliament is no longer supreme and scrutiny of legislation is an option and all without so much as a press release. Suppose in another few years there's a PM that fancies bringing back the death penalty but knows he can't get it through parliament by the usual means.

Stevo_666

TailWindHome wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Robert88 wrote:

Oh, and Ireland of course. We don't need Ireland, any of it.

You don't. But you know the old saying, 'you break it you bought it'

Buying ROI might be a solution to the border problem, if a little Trump-esque.

It would give them the united Ireland that they so desire.

Well the Irish are happy with an open border with the UK and pooling of sovereignty, so I don't see what the problem would be.

No.
You'll tidy up the country you have before you get another.

Done earlier this year.
https://www.keepbritaintidy.org/get-involved/support-our-campaigns/great-british-spring-clean

Stevo_666

orraloon wrote:

https://mobile.twitter.com/bydonkeys/status/1168223020936310785?s=21

Nice.

Can be seen from space - until the tide comes in

They have a lot of time on their hands in Redcar (I should know).

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Stevo, there is a cadre of people who feel that the government is there to, well, govern and should not burden the people with questions on what to do.
When the government does just that, the same people squeal that they have no mandate.

What was that phrase that is quite popular? That's it, "Cake and eat it"

Nope. It's not a question of what anyone wants it's the foundation of our constitution. Parliament is sovereign and is supreme over the government. The government only governs as long as it maintains the confidence of the House of Commons. Johnson is just seeing what he can get away with.

Let's see what happens this week then.

Hope you are enjoying the cadre

It cuts both ways: the 2nd ref claims that the decision should go back to the people (which Corbyn has suddenly decided he supports) are just as wrong as the claims that parliament *must* implement the referendum result. Parliament can do what it likes and it's for parliament to rein in Johnson, if enough of them think he's crossed a line. I'm sure Johnson, Cummings and da Costa know they are sailing close to the wind, but they've (I suspect correctly) that Joe Public isn't too bothered about the constitution. Plus they've not got much to lose, so they may as well try something radical. The longer term concern is not Brexit but the precedent it sets if he succeeds. Parliament is no longer supreme and scrutiny of legislation is an option and all without so much as a press release. Suppose in another few years there's a PM that fancies bringing back the death penalty but knows he can't get it through parliament by the usual means.

Not sure how they can ignore the law. I suspect it is part of the mind games being played to try and head off a possible avenue of attack by the 'rebels'. Although clearly many on here will be on this like a pigeon on a chip citing it as more evidence that those nasty Torwies are weally, weally nasty.

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Stevo, there is a cadre of people who feel that the government is there to, well, govern and should not burden the people with questions on what to do.
When the government does just that, the same people squeal that they have no mandate.

What was that phrase that is quite popular? That's it, "Cake and eat it"

Nope. It's not a question of what anyone wants it's the foundation of our constitution. Parliament is sovereign and is supreme over the government. The government only governs as long as it maintains the confidence of the House of Commons. Johnson is just seeing what he can get away with.

Let's see what happens this week then.

Hope you are enjoying the cadre

It cuts both ways: the 2nd ref claims that the decision should go back to the people (which Corbyn has suddenly decided he supports) are just as wrong as the claims that parliament *must* implement the referendum result. Parliament can do what it likes and it's for parliament to rein in Johnson, if enough of them think he's crossed a line. I'm sure Johnson, Cummings and da Costa know they are sailing close to the wind, but they've assumed (I suspect correctly) that Joe Public isn't too bothered about the constitution. Plus they've not got much to lose, so they may as well try something radical. The longer term concern is not Brexit but the precedent it sets if he succeeds. Parliament is no longer supreme and scrutiny of legislation is an option and all without so much as a press release. Suppose in another few years there's a PM that fancies bringing back the death penalty but knows he can't get it through parliament by the usual means.

Not sure how they can ignore the law. I suspect it is part of the mind games being played to try and head off a possible avenue of attack by the 'rebels'. Although clearly many on here will be on this like a pigeon on a chip citing it as more evidence that those nasty Torwies are weally, weally nasty.

They're testing whether it is against the law or not. The guy who stuck a finger up to Parliament over Vote Leave funding, etc. and thinks most MPs are idiots is now in Downing Street, which says a lot about this government's attitude to parliamentary supremacy: "let's see if we can break it, then we can really do something!"

I think they are scared of the rebels or they wouldn't be threatening to withdraw the whip and deselect them in the inevitable GE that would follow. It's not much of a threat to people like Hammond, but it's all they've got.

As for being weally nasty, does Johnson still count as a conservative with his money-tree spending pledges? And Cummings has specifically stated that he's not a conservative.

Stevo_666

Let's see if he gets the chance after this week. After all, there are a lot of people who want to stop him - in particular those who insist we are a representative democracy but who want a one-off spot of direct democracy.

robert88

Stevo 666 wrote:

. . those nasty Torwies are weally, weally nasty.

But weeaally they aren't Tories, they were elected as Tories but they have been transformed into Ukip.

They are weally, weally Ukip.

To paraphrase Orwell:
The creatures outside looked from Tory to Ukipper, and from Ukipper to Tory and from Tory to Ukipper again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

Let's see if he gets the chance after this week. After all, there are a lot of people who want to stop him - in particular those who insist we are a representative democracy but who want a one-off spot of direct democracy.

I think the 2nd ref idea is a false hope. It's superficially attractive, but anyone can see that the result is extremely unlikely to be the big swing against Brexit that it's proponents want. Repeating a mistake will not reverse the effect of the first mistake.

ballysmate

Robert88 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

. . those nasty Torwies are weally, weally nasty.

But weeaally they aren't Tories, they were elected as Tories but they have been transformed into Ukip.

They are weally, weally Ukip.

To paraphrase Orwell:
The creatures outside looked from Tory to Ukipper, and from Ukipper to Tory and from Tory to Ukipper again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

If that is the case, the leader of the opposition should call a vote of no confidence.

ballysmate

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Let's see if he gets the chance after this week. After all, there are a lot of people who want to stop him - in particular those who insist we are a representative democracy but who want a one-off spot of direct democracy.

I think the 2nd ref idea is a false hope. It's superficially attractive, but anyone can see that the result is extremely unlikely to be the big swing against Brexit that it's proponents want. Repeating a mistake will not reverse the effect of the first mistake.

A German comedian, of all people, explaining why a 2nd referendum is a non starter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxtB8f4WcIw

You have to wonder at the logic of MPs who voted to trigger A50 and then campaigned for a 2nd vote.

rjsterry

Ballysmate wrote:

Robert88 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

. . those nasty Torwies are weally, weally nasty.

But weeaally they aren't Tories, they were elected as Tories but they have been transformed into Ukip.

They are weally, weally Ukip.

To paraphrase Orwell:
The creatures outside looked from Tory to Ukipper, and from Ukipper to Tory and from Tory to Ukipper again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

If that is the case, the leader of the opposition should call a vote of no confidence.

Johnson appears to be threatening to collapse his own government anyway. The parallels with Corbyn's take over of Labour are pretty startling.

On reading around this a bit more this may be an attempt to get around the Fixed Term Parliaments Act. Ironically, Johnson needs Corbyn's help to bring about the GE that he wants, as the FTPA restricts his options.

rolf_f

Stevo 666 wrote:

When are you going to get to the point where you say to yourself "these people are absolute, total lying, inadequate, self serving scum and they aren't fit to govern a toilet cubicle; they no longer deserve my vote"?*

*and no waffling about JC please; separate issue......

Stevo 666 wrote:

When the main alternatives are Magic Grandpa, Wee Jimmy Krankie, Farage and Saint Jo of Swinson, then the Tories are a better alternative than any of those

And PS Rolf, the first Scottish indyref was in 2015 before the EUnref had even been announced. So they wanted out even if it effectively meant leaving the EU at that point.

Come on guys - I know you can understand words. You aren't Coopster.

I'm not talking about the other guys or the ballot box. I'm talking about when it will be that you recognise that the party you admire so much is a cesspool of incompetence. The question isn't about any other party. I'm not asking who you'll vote for - it's a different question. I expect I will vote Labour in a few weeks but I realise I am voting for garbage. You seem unwilling to admit the same despite the endless repeated evidence that you are.

And yes Steve - re Indyref; you're also doing a Coopster there with not being able to understand sentences. The point was (and I'll try to make it really clear!):

Indyref was in 2015 before the EUref had even been announced and the SNP wanted out even though it effectively meant leaving the EU at that point. However, plenty of less rabid Scots who did not necessarily see themselves as Scottish Nationalists were not happy with the way the country was being Governed and wavered over whether to vote to stay in the Union or leave it. And the point about Independence meaning that they'd be out of Europe meant that many no doubt will have voted to remain.
Since then, we have voted to leave the EU and the consequences of that seem to be no deal though nobody actually voted for that but were explicitly told that wasn't an outcome that would happen sod no doubt many of those are thinking "I voted to remain in the Union such that I could also remain part of Europe. However, now Botwat wants a hard Brexit which I didn't vote for. If only I, and a relatively small number of other Scots, had voted for Scottish Independence we wouldn't be in this mess right now. I feel somewhat p1ssed off with this and it seems entirely fair that I should have another opportunity to vote and I will probably vote SNP because being part of a Europe that will invest in my country is more important to me than being part of a country that treats me with content.

That sort of thing.

ballysmate

Rolf F wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Marr "If this legislation [to avoid No Deal] goes through both houses of parliament does the government abide by it?"
Gove "We will see what the legislation says"

This is why the u.k is deep trouble and next Scottish independence referendum is handed to the SNP on a plate. The worst thing is because no election is due unless one is forced and because of our voting system the tories who do not have popular support could still emerge with a majority or close enough to one that they can form a supply and confidence pact. What to do when your vote probably does not count....I mean the law no longer seems to count.

Why would the next Scottish independence referendum be potentially bad for anywhere other than Scotland? After all, leaving a successful union is generally seen to be a bad thing - at least that seems to be the consensus on this thread.

Brexit is regarded as bad for Europe as well as us. I think Remainers want to remain in Europe and want Scotland to remain in the Union but you can't exactly blame the SNP for pushing this on the basis that (oh so long ago it now seems) that one of the big objections to Scottish independence at the time of that referendum was that independence would mean that they'd be out of Europe. If I was Scottish and had been dithering over that vote I'm pretty sure I'd want out now. And I'd be angry with the Govt for telling me that a vote for the Union was a vote to stay in Europe.

Anyway Stevo, have you yet come to the realisation of just how appallingly destructive your beloved Conservative Party is? How bad will it have to get before you reject them?

When are you going to get to the point where you say to yourself "these people are absolute, total lying, inadequate, self serving scum and they aren't fit to govern a toilet cubicle; they no longer deserve my vote"?*

*and no waffling about JC please; separate issue......

That may all be true, depending on your perspective. But I'm sure Stevo, like myself, will enter the ballot box, weigh up the options to see if any of the available parties would offer an improvement and then stick his cross next to the Conservative candidate.
To win an election, you don't have to be brilliant. You only need to be better than the alternatives on offer.

rick_chasey

Ballysmate wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Marr "If this legislation [to avoid No Deal] goes through both houses of parliament does the government abide by it?"
Gove "We will see what the legislation says"

This is why the u.k is deep trouble and next Scottish independence referendum is handed to the SNP on a plate. The worst thing is because no election is due unless one is forced and because of our voting system the tories who do not have popular support could still emerge with a majority or close enough to one that they can form a supply and confidence pact. What to do when your vote probably does not count....I mean the law no longer seems to count.

Why would the next Scottish independence referendum be potentially bad for anywhere other than Scotland? After all, leaving a successful union is generally seen to be a bad thing - at least that seems to be the consensus on this thread.

Brexit is regarded as bad for Europe as well as us. I think Remainers want to remain in Europe and want Scotland to remain in the Union but you can't exactly blame the SNP for pushing this on the basis that (oh so long ago it now seems) that one of the big objections to Scottish independence at the time of that referendum was that independence would mean that they'd be out of Europe. If I was Scottish and had been dithering over that vote I'm pretty sure I'd want out now. And I'd be angry with the Govt for telling me that a vote for the Union was a vote to stay in Europe.

Anyway Stevo, have you yet come to the realisation of just how appallingly destructive your beloved Conservative Party is? How bad will it have to get before you reject them?

When are you going to get to the point where you say to yourself "these people are absolute, total lying, inadequate, self serving scum and they aren't fit to govern a toilet cubicle; they no longer deserve my vote"?*

*and no waffling about JC please; separate issue......

That may all be true, depending on your perspective. But I'm sure Stevo, like myself, will enter the ballot box, weigh up the options to see if any of the available parties would offer an improvement and then stick his cross next to the Conservative candidate.
To win an election, you don't have to be brilliant. You only need to be better than the alternatives on offer.

In what way are the current iteration of Tories a better proposition than, say, the Lib Dems?

Stevo_666

Ballysmate wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Marr "If this legislation [to avoid No Deal] goes through both houses of parliament does the government abide by it?"
Gove "We will see what the legislation says"

This is why the u.k is deep trouble and next Scottish independence referendum is handed to the SNP on a plate. The worst thing is because no election is due unless one is forced and because of our voting system the tories who do not have popular support could still emerge with a majority or close enough to one that they can form a supply and confidence pact. What to do when your vote probably does not count....I mean the law no longer seems to count.

Why would the next Scottish independence referendum be potentially bad for anywhere other than Scotland? After all, leaving a successful union is generally seen to be a bad thing - at least that seems to be the consensus on this thread.

Brexit is regarded as bad for Europe as well as us. I think Remainers want to remain in Europe and want Scotland to remain in the Union but you can't exactly blame the SNP for pushing this on the basis that (oh so long ago it now seems) that one of the big objections to Scottish independence at the time of that referendum was that independence would mean that they'd be out of Europe. If I was Scottish and had been dithering over that vote I'm pretty sure I'd want out now. And I'd be angry with the Govt for telling me that a vote for the Union was a vote to stay in Europe.

Anyway Stevo, have you yet come to the realisation of just how appallingly destructive your beloved Conservative Party is? How bad will it have to get before you reject them?

When are you going to get to the point where you say to yourself "these people are absolute, total lying, inadequate, self serving scum and they aren't fit to govern a toilet cubicle; they no longer deserve my vote"?*

*and no waffling about JC please; separate issue......

That may all be true, depending on your perspective. But I'm sure Stevo, like myself, will enter the ballot box, weigh up the options to see if any of the available parties would offer an improvement and then stick his cross next to the Conservative candidate.
To win an election, you don't have to be brilliant. You only need to be better than the alternatives on offer.

You answered it for me Bally.

When the main alternatives are Magic Grandpa, Wee Jimmy Krankie, Farage and Saint Jo of Swinson, then the Tories are a better alternative than any of those

And PS Rolf, the first Scottish indyref was in 2015 before the EUnref had even been announced. So they wanted out even if it effectively meant leaving the EU at that point.

dabber

Stevo 666 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Marr "If this legislation [to avoid No Deal] goes through both houses of parliament does the government abide by it?"
Gove "We will see what the legislation says"

This is why the u.k is deep trouble and next Scottish independence referendum is handed to the SNP on a plate. The worst thing is because no election is due unless one is forced and because of our voting system the tories who do not have popular support could still emerge with a majority or close enough to one that they can form a supply and confidence pact. What to do when your vote probably does not count....I mean the law no longer seems to count.

Why would the next Scottish independence referendum be potentially bad for anywhere other than Scotland? After all, leaving a successful union is generally seen to be a bad thing - at least that seems to be the consensus on this thread.

Brexit is regarded as bad for Europe as well as us. I think Remainers want to remain in Europe and want Scotland to remain in the Union but you can't exactly blame the SNP for pushing this on the basis that (oh so long ago it now seems) that one of the big objections to Scottish independence at the time of that referendum was that independence would mean that they'd be out of Europe. If I was Scottish and had been dithering over that vote I'm pretty sure I'd want out now. And I'd be angry with the Govt for telling me that a vote for the Union was a vote to stay in Europe.

Anyway Stevo, have you yet come to the realisation of just how appallingly destructive your beloved Conservative Party is? How bad will it have to get before you reject them?

When are you going to get to the point where you say to yourself "these people are absolute, total lying, inadequate, self serving scum and they aren't fit to govern a toilet cubicle; they no longer deserve my vote"?*

*and no waffling about JC please; separate issue......

That may all be true, depending on your perspective. But I'm sure Stevo, like myself, will enter the ballot box, weigh up the options to see if any of the available parties would offer an improvement and then stick his cross next to the Conservative candidate.
To win an election, you don't have to be brilliant. You only need to be better than the alternatives on offer.

You answered it for me Bally.

When the main alternatives are Magic Grandpa, Wee Jimmy Krankie, Farage and Saint Jo of Swinson, then the Tories are a better alternative than any of those

And PS Rolf, the first Scottish indyref was in 2015 before the EUnref had even been announced. So they wanted out even if it effectively meant leaving the EU at that point.

And therein lies the problem... they are all crap, so who is the least crap. It's pathetic really.

cycleclinic

Dabber wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Marr "If this legislation [to avoid No Deal] goes through both houses of parliament does the government abide by it?"
Gove "We will see what the legislation says"

This is why the u.k is deep trouble and next Scottish independence referendum is handed to the SNP on a plate. The worst thing is because no election is due unless one is forced and because of our voting system the tories who do not have popular support could still emerge with a majority or close enough to one that they can form a supply and confidence pact. What to do when your vote probably does not count....I mean the law no longer seems to count.

Why would the next Scottish independence referendum be potentially bad for anywhere other than Scotland? After all, leaving a successful union is generally seen to be a bad thing - at least that seems to be the consensus on this thread.

Brexit is regarded as bad for Europe as well as us. I think Remainers want to remain in Europe and want Scotland to remain in the Union but you can't exactly blame the SNP for pushing this on the basis that (oh so long ago it now seems) that one of the big objections to Scottish independence at the time of that referendum was that independence would mean that they'd be out of Europe. If I was Scottish and had been dithering over that vote I'm pretty sure I'd want out now. And I'd be angry with the Govt for telling me that a vote for the Union was a vote to stay in Europe.

Anyway Stevo, have you yet come to the realisation of just how appallingly destructive your beloved Conservative Party is? How bad will it have to get before you reject them?

When are you going to get to the point where you say to yourself "these people are absolute, total lying, inadequate, self serving scum and they aren't fit to govern a toilet cubicle; they no longer deserve my vote"?*

*and no waffling about JC please; separate issue......

That may all be true, depending on your perspective. But I'm sure Stevo, like myself, will enter the ballot box, weigh up the options to see if any of the available parties would offer an improvement and then stick his cross next to the Conservative candidate.
To win an election, you don't have to be brilliant. You only need to be better than the alternatives on offer.

You answered it for me Bally.

When the main alternatives are Magic Grandpa, Wee Jimmy Krankie, Farage and Saint Jo of Swinson, then the Tories are a better alternative than any of those

And PS Rolf, the first Scottish indyref was in 2015 before the EUnref had even been announced. So they wanted out even if it effectively meant leaving the EU at that point.

And therein lies the problem... they are all crap, so who is the least crap. It's pathetic really.

How did the brexit side get filled with we will wreck everything mentality to get our way.

How could a labour mp support a tory government tomorrow.

Frankie Boyle as always seems to understand. British people seem to have an strongly held opinions based on absolutely nothing.

I'm not sure it even a choice between whoes least pathetic anymore. Both side are wreckers although I do want to see the government fall. The wreck it all mentality has infected me too I think it's in all of us.

Perhaps the brexit theme song should be. https://youtu.be/wmin5WkOuPw

kingstongraham

Stevo 666 wrote:

When the main alternatives are Magic Grandpa, Wee Jimmy Krankie, Farage and Saint Jo of Swinson, then the Tories are a better alternative than any of those

Why is Farage just Farage?