BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

tailwindhome

Interesting point on the prorogation versus recess for the conference season

Whatever the 'rebels' try has to be done and dusted by the prorogation date or it falls away whereas if the conference season was only a recess it would be still alive

TheBigBean

TailWindHome wrote:

Interesting point on the prorogation versus recess for the conference season

Whatever the 'rebels' try has to be done and dusted by the prorogation date or it falls away whereas if the conference season was only a recess it would be still alive

Yes, but not if it was then followed by prorogation for a queen's speech.

kingstongraham

TheBigBean wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Interesting point on the prorogation versus recess for the conference season

Whatever the 'rebels' try has to be done and dusted by the prorogation date or it falls away whereas if the conference season was only a recess it would be still alive

Yes, but not if it was then followed by prorogation for a queen's speech.

It's just a happy coincidence for the government.

TheBigBean

KingstonGraham wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Interesting point on the prorogation versus recess for the conference season

Whatever the 'rebels' try has to be done and dusted by the prorogation date or it falls away whereas if the conference season was only a recess it would be still alive

Yes, but not if it was then followed by prorogation for a queen's speech.

It's just a happy coincidence for the government.

No. It's not a coup either.

rick_chasey

TheBigBean wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Interesting point on the prorogation versus recess for the conference season

Whatever the 'rebels' try has to be done and dusted by the prorogation date or it falls away whereas if the conference season was only a recess it would be still alive

Yes, but not if it was then followed by prorogation for a queen's speech.

It's just a happy coincidence for the government.

No. It's not a coup either.

No. The reaction to the whole 'coup' chat is odd. Papers etc have been referring to 'coups' in parliament for decades if not centuries.

It's never even mentioned that 'it's not actually a 'coup'. Take this BBC documentary in 2017 about the '70s. https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/progi ... ntary-coup It's literally titled "a parliamentary coup'.

or here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-34317445

or here: https://www.ft.com/content/f4dedd92-43c ... eb4891c97d

Or here: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... y-83-votes

etc etc

Why is it different now?

kingstongraham

TheBigBean wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Interesting point on the prorogation versus recess for the conference season

Whatever the 'rebels' try has to be done and dusted by the prorogation date or it falls away whereas if the conference season was only a recess it would be still alive

Yes, but not if it was then followed by prorogation for a queen's speech.

It's just a happy coincidence for the government.

No. It's not a coup either.

But they can't now in good faith object to "the others" using any tactic available.

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Marr "If this legislation [to avoid No Deal] goes through both houses of parliament does the government abide by it?"
Gove "We will see what the legislation says"

This is why the u.k is deep trouble and next Scottish independence referendum is handed to the SNP on a plate. The worst thing is because no election is due unless one is forced and because of our voting system the tories who do not have popular support could still emerge with a majority or close enough to one that they can form a supply and confidence pact. What to do when your vote probably does not count....I mean the law no longer seems to count.

Why would the next Scottish independence referendum be potentially bad for anywhere other than Scotland? After all, leaving a successful union is generally seen to be a bad thing - at least that seems to be the consensus on this thread.

Brexit is regarded as bad for Europe as well as us. I think Remainers want to remain in Europe and want Scotland to remain in the Union but you can't exactly blame the SNP for pushing this on the basis that (oh so long ago it now seems) that one of the big objections to Scottish independence at the time of that referendum was that independence would mean that they'd be out of Europe. If I was Scottish and had been dithering over that vote I'm pretty sure I'd want out now. And I'd be angry with the Govt for telling me that a vote for the Union was a vote to stay in Europe.

Anyway Stevo, have you yet come to the realisation of just how appallingly destructive your beloved Conservative Party is? How bad will it have to get before you reject them?

When are you going to get to the point where you say to yourself "these people are absolute, total lying, inadequate, self serving scum and they aren't fit to govern a toilet cubicle; they no longer deserve my vote"?*

*and no waffling about JC please; separate issue......

That may all be true, depending on your perspective. But I'm sure Stevo, like myself, will enter the ballot box, weigh up the options to see if any of the available parties would offer an improvement and then stick his cross next to the Conservative candidate.
To win an election, you don't have to be brilliant. You only need to be better than the alternatives on offer.

You answered it for me Bally.

When the main alternatives are Magic Grandpa, Wee Jimmy Krankie, Farage and Saint Jo of Swinson, then the Tories are a better alternative than any of those

And PS Rolf, the first Scottish indyref was in 2015 before the EUnref had even been announced. So they wanted out even if it effectively meant leaving the EU at that point.

Genuinely intrigued by this. The current leadership would appear to be willing to jettison many of the things that makes them conservative. Fiscal responsibility seems to be out of the window now that Javid's balls are in Cummings desk drawer. Johnson is at least self-aware enough not to try a reprise of Major's back to basics. The slightly half-hearted law-and-order shtick that was wheeled out the other day only puts things back to where they were during Cameron's tenure.

I'm interested what the threshold is, beyond which you'd look elsewhere. Clearly quite a few who think of themselves as Conservative have already reached that point.

kingstongraham

rjsterry wrote:

I'm interested what the threshold is, beyond which you'd look elsewhere. Clearly quite a few who think of themselves as Conservative have already reached that point.

it's tax.

rjsterry

KingstonGraham wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

When the main alternatives are Magic Grandpa, Wee Jimmy Krankie, Farage and Saint Jo of Swinson, then the Tories are a better alternative than any of those

Why is Farage just Farage?

Because his party is not really a party. It has no membership; it's just a means of extracting money from gullible idiots. Recently you could apply to be a TBP parliamentary candidate on payment of a £100 non-returnable deposit.

rick_chasey

rjsterry wrote:

.

I'm interested what the threshold is, beyond which you'd look elsewhere. Clearly quite a few who think of themselves as Conservative have already reached that point.

I think that stumblingmumbling blog on corbynphobia covers it tbh.

darkhairedlord

KingstonGraham wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

When the main alternatives are Magic Grandpa, Wee Jimmy Krankie, Farage and Saint Jo of Swinson, then the Tories are a better alternative than any of those

Why is Farage just Farage?

Because it is the more derogatory than any insult you can pull out of the hat.

TheBigBean

KingstonGraham wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Interesting point on the prorogation versus recess for the conference season

Whatever the 'rebels' try has to be done and dusted by the prorogation date or it falls away whereas if the conference season was only a recess it would be still alive

Yes, but not if it was then followed by prorogation for a queen's speech.

It's just a happy coincidence for the government.

No. It's not a coup either.

But they can't now in good faith object to "the others" using any tactic available.

Which side are you discussing? Neither side is acting particularly in good faith. Neither side is on the moral high ground. Both sides are playing politics.

kingstongraham

TheBigBean wrote:

Which side are you discussing? Neither side is acting particularly in good faith. Neither side is on the moral high ground. Both sides are playing politics.

If the government decides to shut down parliament to avoid scrutiny of what it is doing and to prevent the will of parliament becoming law, parliament can reasonably do whatever is just within the rules to get around that restriction. The government will say it's outrageous, the speaker shouldn't allow this, it's without precedent etc etc.

darkhairedlord

This is an all-against-all punch-up; last one standing carries the can.

TheBigBean

KingstonGraham wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Which side are you discussing? Neither side is acting particularly in good faith. Neither side is on the moral high ground. Both sides are playing politics.

If the government decides to shut down parliament to avoid scrutiny of what it is doing and to prevent the will of parliament becoming law, parliament can reasonably do whatever is just within the rules to get around that restriction. The government will say it's outrageous, the speaker shouldn't allow this, it's without precedent etc etc.

Yes, all of that will happen.

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

.

I'm interested what the threshold is, beyond which you'd look elsewhere. Clearly quite a few who think of themselves as Conservative have already reached that point.

I think that stumblingmumbling blog on corbynphobia covers it tbh.

The gap between Corbyn and Johnson is pretty slim at the moment. It's all free stuff for everyone and someone else will pay. It's just different stationery.

Stevo_666

KingstonGraham wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

When the main alternatives are Magic Grandpa, Wee Jimmy Krankie, Farage and Saint Jo of Swinson, then the Tories are a better alternative than any of those

Why is Farage just Farage?

Couldn't think of a vaguely amusing nickname at the time, but good to see you're concentrating on the central issues here

kingstongraham

Stevo 666 wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

When the main alternatives are Magic Grandpa, Wee Jimmy Krankie, Farage and Saint Jo of Swinson, then the Tories are a better alternative than any of those

Why is Farage just Farage?

Couldn't think of a vaguely amusing nickname at the time, but good to see you're concentrating on the central issues here

Apologies. Back on the important topics, surely there's something about Johnson that lends itself to a hilarious caricature.

tailwindhome

There are 2 narrative myths that have gained traction

1 - Remain MPs have have thwarted Brexit
2 - All's fair in love and parliamentary procedure


Narrative one doesn't really stack up. What have remain MPs done to thwart Brexit other than to walk through the same 'no' lobby as the ERG

If you believe narrative 2 you should list everything the Remain MPs have done and compare it to the government's actions. Taking control of the order paper via an amendable motion to allow MPs to vote on an indicative basis as to what form of Brexit could command a majority in the house seems mild in comparison.

tailwindhome

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng ... ish-border

Stevo_666

Go on Jezza, grow a pair, get that VONC going tomorrow and kick off a general election...what's the worst that could happen?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-49551843/tony-blair-election-before-brexit-is-an-elephant-trap

cycleclinic

...

cycleclinic

TailWindHome wrote:

There are 2 narrative myths that have gained traction

1 - Remain MPs have have thwarted Brexit
2 - All's fair in love and parliamentary procedure


Narrative one doesn't really stack up. What have remain MPs done to thwart Brexit other than to walk through the same 'no' lobby as the ERG

If you believe narrative 2 you should list everything the Remain MPs have done and compare it to the government's actions. Taking control of the order paper via an amendable motion to allow MPs to vote on an indicative basis as to what form of Brexit could command a majority in the house seems mild in comparison.

It more both sides are willing and the remain side is growing more bold to bend the rules to get there way. Each side is upping the stakes. If one side loses they will be sore and that can lead to paralysis or both sides are stuck in in a never ending war of attrition that leads to paralysis.

I dont however see an alternative as the brexit side wont compromise and the remain side is so fragmented they cant agree what compromise would be acceptable as we saw in March.

It not longer a matter of who in the right or even who voted what way and which side your on. We are all in the mess and both sides need each other to extract us from it.

tailwindhome

Stevo 666 wrote:

Go on Jezza, grow a pair, get that VONC going tomorrow and kick off a general election...what's the worst that could happen?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-49551843/tony-blair-election-before-brexit-is-an-elephant-trap

For who?

cycleclinic

The brexit party may squeeze the tory vote enough to deny them a majority. The tory party could actually blow up in a GE campaign politically that it is. They are a long way from being unified and the more bojo and co are willing to wreck everything to get there way the more willing there opponents in the tory party become to do the same. It's a viscous circle .

kingstongraham

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49543575

Has this one hit the Daily Mail front page?

bompington

thecycleclinic wrote:

It's a viscous circle .

True, going round and round without end, and bound to get sticky.

rolf_f

Stevo 666 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Marr "If this legislation [to avoid No Deal] goes through both houses of parliament does the government abide by it?"
Gove "We will see what the legislation says"

This is why the u.k is deep trouble and next Scottish independence referendum is handed to the SNP on a plate. The worst thing is because no election is due unless one is forced and because of our voting system the tories who do not have popular support could still emerge with a majority or close enough to one that they can form a supply and confidence pact. What to do when your vote probably does not count....I mean the law no longer seems to count.

Why would the next Scottish independence referendum be potentially bad for anywhere other than Scotland? After all, leaving a successful union is generally seen to be a bad thing - at least that seems to be the consensus on this thread.

Brexit is regarded as bad for Europe as well as us. I think Remainers want to remain in Europe and want Scotland to remain in the Union but you can't exactly blame the SNP for pushing this on the basis that (oh so long ago it now seems) that one of the big objections to Scottish independence at the time of that referendum was that independence would mean that they'd be out of Europe. If I was Scottish and had been dithering over that vote I'm pretty sure I'd want out now. And I'd be angry with the Govt for telling me that a vote for the Union was a vote to stay in Europe.

Anyway Stevo, have you yet come to the realisation of just how appallingly destructive your beloved Conservative Party is? How bad will it have to get before you reject them?

When are you going to get to the point where you say to yourself "these people are absolute, total lying, inadequate, self serving scum and they aren't fit to govern a toilet cubicle; they no longer deserve my vote"?*

*and no waffling about JC please; separate issue......

That may all be true, depending on your perspective. But I'm sure Stevo, like myself, will enter the ballot box, weigh up the options to see if any of the available parties would offer an improvement and then stick his cross next to the Conservative candidate.
To win an election, you don't have to be brilliant. You only need to be better than the alternatives on offer.

You answered it for me Bally.

When the main alternatives are Magic Grandpa, Wee Jimmy Krankie, Farage and Saint Jo of Swinson, then the Tories are a better alternative than any of those

And PS Rolf, the first Scottish indyref was in 2015 before the EUnref had even been announced. So they wanted out even if it effectively meant leaving the EU at that point.

You folk are getting as bad as Coopster for not being able to understand sentences (Quote me - and no waffling about JC please; separate issue). As I said, this isn't about the others. It's about how much do this shower of appalling nasty people need to do before you'll reject them? You are just (as usual) avoiding the question. When will you admit that the Conservative party is incapable of running a toilet cubicle? If you were American you'd be making excuses for Trump. Do you not see how bad your enthusiasm for the Conservative party looks now?

As for Indyref, I'll try to spell it out even more clearly (see again ref re understanding words etc!).

The first Scottish indyref was in 2015 before the EUref had even been announced. So the SNP wanted out even if it effectively meant leaving the EU at that point. However, not everyone who considered voting out was pro SNP. There were no doubt many folk who had mixed feelings about it; they might have liked the idea of getting shot of the Tory liars infesting Westminster but were duly concerned about the consequences, as stated clearly at the time, that independence meant leaving the EU as well as the UK.
So, with mixed feelings they voted to remain. Only to discover that what the Tory liars had told them about how important it was to stay in Europe was a crock because they actually wanted us to leave the EU with a hard brexit (well, obviously said nothing of the sort but I'll just pretend in case it helps Coopster to reach the end). So they rightly feel a bit p1ssed off about this. They were told that by voting to remain in the Union that they'd remain in the EU. But now it transpires that probably had they voted for Independence that they wouldn't be leaving the EU. The British Government lied to them in the referendum so, as with any referendum determined on the basis of lies, they might fairly want another go.
On that basis, if I was Scottish and I'd voted to remain in the last referendum, I might be wanting to have another vote based on the political and economic system that applies today.

At least Labour would only be "almost certainly appalling in Govt" - The Tories have proved that they are. Labour would be going something even with Corbyn in charge to out sink Boris.

tailwindhome

thecycleclinic wrote:

It more both sides are willing and the remain side is growing more bold to bend the rules to get there way. Each side is upping the stakes.

What rules have the Remain side broken or seem intent on breaking to get their way?

TheBigBean

TailWindHome wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

It more both sides are willing and the remain side is growing more bold to bend the rules to get there way. Each side is upping the stakes.

What rules have the Remain side broken or seem intent on breaking to get their way?

This sort of thing always reminds of the football song "same old [insert opposition] always cheating". Sung by every group of fans to every opposition.