BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,329
    finchy wrote:
    Depends where you live and what you're exposed to. Ever lived in a foreign country? It's easy to feel like you're despised when you get a steady drip-drip-drip of abuse and negative comments.
    This is most definitely true.
    Unfortunate, but true.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,817
    PBlakeney wrote:
    finchy wrote:
    Depends where you live and what you're exposed to. Ever lived in a foreign country? It's easy to feel like you're despised when you get a steady drip-drip-drip of abuse and negative comments.
    This is most definitely true.
    Unfortunate, but true.
    Unfortunately I agree.
    Kinesis Pro6
    Marin Nail Trail
    Cotic Solaris
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    This is economics!!!! The person wiping your granny's ars* is an East European and the person paying taxes to keep her in the home is also East European.
    I hope not as she was buried 20 years ago.
    That is the situation outlined. What is the solution?

    I have outlined above how you can reduce costs but real solutions require more effort.
    True

    One would be to encourage people to have more kids. You could literally bribe them by increasing child benefit. or you can make it easier/cheaper for mothers to return to work by making childcare tax deductible or state run childcare - this is what France do. This will take 20 years for the benefits to kick in and will have massive set-up costs. We should have done this 30 years ago but now you would have to chop other budgets to pay for it so realistically will not happen.
    Kicking the can down the road. More pensioners then.

    The another option is to encourage the right sort of economic migration. The UK did this very successfully for a couple of decades but populist politicians conflated this with the problems caused by a global financial crisis and now we need a new plan.Kicking the can down the road. More pensioners then.

    Another solution would be to change cultural attitudes. In the UK we have a strong sense of entitlement so claim everything we can from the Govt. Think C2W, millionaire pensioners collecting their winter fuel allowance or billionaire landowners collecting every subsidy they can. In Japan they have a culture of taking from the State "what you need" not "what you can". Fair point but I'd guess most pensioners do not earn enough to be paying tax in the first place.

    What would I do? Make all pensioner benefits taxable, put pensioners on same tax rates as the rest of us. They already are AFAIK. Replace the triple lock with a CPI designed to reflect what pensioners spend their money on. £6k will barely cover basic living costs. Make it easier for Mums to return to work by having heavily subsidised state run childcare. The biggest help will be economic growth and economic migration so I would not leave the EU. How will this affect youth unemployment?

    I know people will compare me to Robert Mugabe but my background is as an economist and this is all mainstream stuff and why it is called the dismal science.
    See my comments in red.

    Difficult to find stats but it seems there are 250,000 pensioners paying top rate. Pensioners pay 11% of all tax so a big % must be paying something. Integrating tax and NI would be a sneaky way of upping the tax take from pensioners.

    The thought is that we will need more people economically active so should not effect youth unemployment. Maybe we need a clever way of encouraging the youth to move to where the jobs are - tied housing?
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    It is all very well adopting a tough negotiating stance but first we need to get realistic. If we want a Norway style deal we need to accept free movement of labour. If we don't want to compromise on that then let's negotiate on the basis of WTO
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,329
    edited July 2016
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Difficult to find stats but it seems there are 250,000 pensioners paying top rate. Pensioners pay 11% of all tax so a big % must be paying something. Integrating tax and NI would be a sneaky way of upping the tax take from pensioners.
    Must be outside my circles then. Most pay nothing, some pay 20%, none pay 40%. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Edit - A pot of over £500k is required for a pension of over £30k to pay 40% tax. Won't affect the majority, but I agree that anyone with a pot of that size shouldn't collect the State Pension.
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    The thought is that we will need more people economically active so should not effect youth unemployment. Maybe we need a clever way of encouraging the youth to move to where the jobs are - tied housing?
    Difficult part is generating the jobs first, I'd have thought.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Lookyhere
    Lookyhere Posts: 987
    Wallace and Gromit wrote:
    Lookyhere wrote:
    dont see anything to be particularly positive about, from the loss of NHS workers to a slow down or even recession, individuals losing jobs etc completely unnecessarily is a waste - but for me the biggest negative is our rep abroad, viewed from europe or USA, we are seen as xenophobic and tiny minded.

    How are we going to lose NHS workers? This is a possible outcome before any exit negotiations have formally begun, just as the UK adopting a relationship with the rest of the world akin to North Korea's is. But it doesn't seem very likely does it? Project Fear didn't work during the campaign, so it's probably best canned now, unless you're intent on making yourself miserable.

    I wouldn't worry about the USA view. Trump will win just under or just over half the votes in their upcoming Presidential election. Glass houses and stones etc.

    Just over 1/3 of those eligible to vote voted to leave. Whilst this is not an absolute majority, there are more leave voters than remain voters. So if the UK did not vote to leave, what did it vote for? This isn't a rhetorical question - You're saying the UK didn't vote to leave and I am genuinely interested to know what you think the UK did vote for! (33 million folk voted, so there was clearly a vote for something.) .

    well, my mum has had a Stroke, a big one, i dont feel particularly cheery dude.
    so hearing from Spanish Italian Polish Nurses and HCA's say they feel unwelcome in this country and that friends in their home countries have turned down job moves to this country in the healthcare industry doesnt fill me with confidence.

    i ve worked abroad and no way would i want to work in a country were there were reports of attacks on UK nationals.

    We should worry about the USA view, its how American people and businesses see us, not just what Trump thinks, will he win?

    many of the OUTs seem to have voted to leave based on lies and on stuff that has nothing to do with the EU, certainly out of say 10 or 15 OUTs i ve chatted too before and since, only 2 seem to have considered all the options and can make a meaningful argument as to why and what they want the UK to do.

    Conversely, many INs have voted to stay based on the scare stories this campaign told, so in answer to your question, i'm not sure what the UK voted for but as you say, there was no overall majority to stay or leave and that is why the vote should have been legally binding AND had a 60% majority and a min turn out too - DC was lax and just assumed the UK would nt vote leave.

    dont get me wrong, we will leave or so it appears and i want us to still do well, i just think we are just making life hard for ourselves and it will take a long time for us to make our way in the wider World and if we have a Norway deal, what have we gained?
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Difficult to find stats but it seems there are 250,000 pensioners paying top rate. Pensioners pay 11% of all tax so a big % must be paying something. Integrating tax and NI would be a sneaky way of upping the tax take from pensioners.
    Must be outside my circles then. Most pay nothing, some pay 20%, none pay 40%. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Edit - A pot of over £500k is required for a pension of over £30k to pay 40% tax. Won't affect the majority, but I agree that anyone with a pot of that size shouldn't collect the State Pension.
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    The thought is that we will need more people economically active so should not effect youth unemployment. Maybe we need a clever way of encouraging the youth to move to where the jobs are - tied housing?
    Difficult part is generating the jobs first, I'd have thought.

    Well everybody in our facilities deptis foreign. Virtually every person in a bar, coffee shop is foreign. Very unusual to find a British cleaner or delivery driver. Throughout our company there are a lot of foreigners in all functions - particularly web developers and marketing. One day all of these jobs will be available to Brits plus seasonal work in agriculture.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,329
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Well everybody in our facilities deptis foreign. Virtually every person in a bar, coffee shop is foreign. Very unusual to find a British cleaner or delivery driver. Throughout our company there are a lot of foreigners in all functions - particularly web developers and marketing. One day all of these jobs will be available to Brits plus seasonal work in agriculture.
    That may well be the thinking that led to a Brexit vote but I can't see it happening.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Well everybody in our facilities deptis foreign. Virtually every person in a bar, coffee shop is foreign. Very unusual to find a British cleaner or delivery driver. Throughout our company there are a lot of foreigners in all functions - particularly web developers and marketing. One day all of these jobs will be available to Brits plus seasonal work in agriculture.
    That may well be the thinking that led to a Brexit vote but I can't see it happening.

    Either do I. They will refuse to move and/or sneer at doing menial jobs.
  • ukiboy
    ukiboy Posts: 891
    It'll all come good in the end. We have a new PM, a second female one in this country - good on the Tory party for pushing the equality and diversity agenda - and I'm confident that a post Brexit Great Britain will truly flourish and grow.
    Outside the rat race and proud of it
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Surrey Commuter wrote:

    Well everybody in our facilities deptis foreign. Virtually every person in a bar, coffee shop is foreign. Very unusual to find a British cleaner or delivery driver. Throughout our company there are a lot of foreigners in all functions - particularly web developers and marketing. One day all of these jobs will be available to Brits plus seasonal work in agriculture.

    mmmmm these jobs always were, where i worked part time whilst at College, the owner cannot get english labourers so he goes to an agency that uses east Europeans, they work harder than their UK counterparts,
    how do you get around this? you cannot make someone motivated and hard working, its certainly not pay, as even the min wage for 40 hrs is a lot more than dole for a single young person.

    when it comes to skilled workers, even harder, takes years and alot of money to become an Engineer or a Nurse, let alone a junior Doctor, anyhow we lack the education system to produce enough kids with the right qualifications and mindset.

    i still cannot fathom how a PM can take us out of Europe with no real idea of the outcome, its just irresponsible.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    ukiboy wrote:
    It'll all come good in the end. We have a new PM, a second female one in this country - good on the Tory party for pushing the equality and diversity agenda - and I'm confident that a post Brexit Great Britain will truly flourish and grow.

    Would you mind explaining why you are confident that we will flourish and grow post-Brexit when most experts think we are at the stage of making the best of a bad situation.
  • ukiboy
    ukiboy Posts: 891
    I take with a pinch of salt what most experts say. In my experience, having spent decades on this fine green planet, I have come to the conclusion that most 'experts' are full of crap! :-)
    Outside the rat race and proud of it
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    mamba80 wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:

    Well everybody in our facilities deptis foreign. Virtually every person in a bar, coffee shop is foreign. Very unusual to find a British cleaner or delivery driver. Throughout our company there are a lot of foreigners in all functions - particularly web developers and marketing. One day all of these jobs will be available to Brits plus seasonal work in agriculture.

    mmmmm these jobs always were, where i worked part time whilst at College, the owner cannot get english labourers so he goes to an agency that uses east Europeans, they work harder than their UK counterparts,
    how do you get around this? you cannot make someone motivated and hard working, its certainly not pay, as even the min wage for 40 hrs is a lot more than dole for a single young person.

    when it comes to skilled workers, even harder, takes years and alot of money to become an Engineer or a Nurse, let alone a junior Doctor, anyhow we lack the education system to produce enough kids with the right qualifications and mindset.

    i still cannot fathom how a PM can take us out of Europe with no real idea of the outcome, its just irresponsible.

    The technical term for your first point is the "natural rate of unemployment" which basically means that everybody who wants a job has one. You can reduce this rate by using both a carrot and a stick.

    Your second and third points are both due to short-term political thinking.
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 13,227
    ukiboy wrote:
    I take with a pinch of salt what most experts say. In my experience, having spent decades on this fine green planet, I have come to the conclusion that most 'experts' are full of crap! :-)
    Oh hello, Michael Gove is here.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    ukiboy wrote:
    I take with a pinch of salt what most experts say. In my experience, having spent decades on this fine green planet, I have come to the conclusion that most 'experts' are full of crap! :-)

    But that does not explain why you think we have a glorious future ahead of us?

    What are we going to do better to overcome the negatives of leaving the world's largest free trade block?
  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    Immigrant workers are always having to make a decision based on the hardship v. benefits of living abroad. There has always been a racist element is UK society. It is actually much better now, even with the Brexit spike in incidents, than it was 30 yrs ago. That's not much comfort to those experiencing it, but immigrants of the 50s and 60s faced much worse. Racism used to be institutionalised in employers, unions, the police and other bodies. But it is too early to see how far it will go this time and how the establishment will deal with it.

    Nurses and HCAs from abroad would not be working here unless they felt there was a material or social benefit to them that made leaving their home country worthwhile. Yes, they may leave, but only if there is a stable job and affordable home to go back to. We as a nation have o decide what face we present to the world if we want them to stay and if we want others to come.
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 13,227
    edited July 2016
    Quote today from one of my clients, French, living in Switzerland, have a property here where they lived from mid 1990s until couple of years ago, they are back at it just now getting it prepped for renting out.

    "The atmosphere is not as before and the situation is so unbelieveable. We will see what happens with Mrs May."

    The USAnians are taking the pixx out of us (and waiting for a poss Trump win to retaliate just doesn't cut it); e.g. Brexit is subject of a jibe or 2 in most recent Doug Stanhope podcast.

    Happy days eh.
  • ukiboy
    ukiboy Posts: 891
    Michael Gove is not here, however, I have confidence in this country. The UK has been in the EEC since the early '70s. It has been in the EU since the early '90s.
    Closer federalism has not benefitted the UK.
    Great Britain has been a cultural, military, economic and world wide power since the start of the industrial revolution back in the 1700's.
    The EU has not facilitated this, if anything it has obstructed it.
    Great Britain will continue to be a massive player on the world stage and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.
    Outside the rat race and proud of it
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    ukiboy wrote:
    Michael Gove is not here, however, I have confidence in this country. The UK has been in the EEC since the early '70s. It has been in the EU since the early '90s.
    Closer federalism has not benefitted the UK.
    Great Britain has been a cultural, military, economic and world wide power since the start of the industrial revolution back in the 1700's.
    The EU has not facilitated this, if anything it has obstructed it.
    Great Britain will continue to be a massive player on the world stage and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

    Those are all reasonable points. Would we want to reconstruct our empire by accepting other EU leavers into the Union?
  • ukiboy
    ukiboy Posts: 891
    Why would we SC? I can only speak for myself but all I wanted was independent UK government without EU interference.
    Perhaps Brexit will facilitate other nations seeking their own 'exit' but that is not for me to ponder.
    FWIW - I love Europe! I love visiting European countries and taking in the culture and vibes, indeed I am of a European heritage myself, but I just hate the political construction that is the EU. Sorry!
    Outside the rat race and proud of it
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    mrfpb wrote:
    Immigrant workers are always having to make a decision based on the hardship v. benefits of living abroad. There has always been a racist element is UK society. It is actually much better now, even with the Brexit spike in incidents, than it was 30 yrs ago. That's not much comfort to those experiencing it, but immigrants of the 50s and 60s faced much worse. Racism used to be institutionalised in employers, unions, the police and other bodies. But it is too early to see how far it will go this time and how the establishment will deal with it.

    Nurses and HCAs from abroad would not be working here unless they felt there was a material or social benefit to them that made leaving their home country worthwhile. Yes, they may leave, but only if there is a stable job and affordable home to go back to. We as a nation have o decide what face we present to the world if we want them to stay and if we want others to come.

    As this could be a relatively quick departure what would we do short-term? Surely changing people's perception will take years or generations.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    ukiboy wrote:
    Why would we SC? I can only speak for myself but all I wanted was independent UK government without EU interference.
    Perhaps Brexit will facilitate other nations seeking their own 'exit' but that is not for me to ponder.
    FWIW - I love Europe! I love visiting European countries and taking in the culture and vibes, indeed I am of a European heritage myself, but I just hate the political construction that is the EU. Sorry!

    I assumed you were joking so was joining in.
  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    mrfpb wrote:
    Immigrant workers are always having to make a decision based on the hardship v. benefits of living abroad. There has always been a racist element is UK society. It is actually much better now, even with the Brexit spike in incidents, than it was 30 yrs ago. That's not much comfort to those experiencing it, but immigrants of the 50s and 60s faced much worse. Racism used to be institutionalised in employers, unions, the police and other bodies. But it is too early to see how far it will go this time and how the establishment will deal with it.

    Nurses and HCAs from abroad would not be working here unless they felt there was a material or social benefit to them that made leaving their home country worthwhile. Yes, they may leave, but only if there is a stable job and affordable home to go back to. We as a nation have o decide what face we present to the world if we want them to stay and if we want others to come.

    As this could be a relatively quick departure what would we do short-term? Surely changing people's perception will take years or generations.

    We could get a reciprocal arrangement on right to remain in place early in the Art 50 discussions. Appoint a home office team that has a clear view on the benefits of well managed immigration and a clear anti-racist agenda. Strengthen international links between medical and nursing colleges and the same with professional bodies in other relevant sectors. restart the British Council, the part of the diplomatic service responsible for cultural exchange. Maybe a few other things we could do.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    mrfpb wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    mrfpb wrote:
    Immigrant workers are always having to make a decision based on the hardship v. benefits of living abroad. There has always been a racist element is UK society. It is actually much better now, even with the Brexit spike in incidents, than it was 30 yrs ago. That's not much comfort to those experiencing it, but immigrants of the 50s and 60s faced much worse. Racism used to be institutionalised in employers, unions, the police and other bodies. But it is too early to see how far it will go this time and how the establishment will deal with it.

    Nurses and HCAs from abroad would not be working here unless they felt there was a material or social benefit to them that made leaving their home country worthwhile. Yes, they may leave, but only if there is a stable job and affordable home to go back to. We as a nation have o decide what face we present to the world if we want them to stay and if we want others to come.

    As this could be a relatively quick departure what would we do short-term? Surely changing people's perception will take years or generations.

    We could get a reciprocal arrangement on right to remain in place early in the Art 50 discussions. Appoint a home office team that has a clear view on the benefits of well managed immigration and a clear anti-racist agenda. Strengthen international links between medical and nursing colleges and the same with professional bodies in other relevant sectors. restart the British Council, the part of the diplomatic service responsible for cultural exchange. Maybe a few other things we could do.

    Good long term ideas but what do we do if tens of thousands leave in the next year?

    I see the problem more as Xenophobia than racism but do not feel it will be easy to get this genie back in the bottle.
  • mrfpb
    mrfpb Posts: 4,569
    mrfpb wrote:
    . We as a nation have to decide what face we present to the world if we want them to stay and if we want others to come.

    NOT appointing Boris Johnson as Foreign Secretary would also be good.

    Oops, too late. :?
  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,618
    finchy wrote:
    Can you not understand why I've got very strong feelings about this possibility?

    I certainly understand. I just disagree with your analysis and conclusions! But given that the government with virtually limitless resources at its disposal completely misread the national view re the EU, I'd be fooling myself if I had much confidence in my specific predictions. So the fact that we have different views on this means no more to me than whether we like different bike riders.

    Mind you, as I type, I hear Boris has been appointed Foreign Secretary. We're all doomed. :D
  • ukiboy
    ukiboy Posts: 891
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    ukiboy wrote:
    Why would we SC? I can only speak for myself but all I wanted was independent UK government without EU interference.
    Perhaps Brexit will facilitate other nations seeking their own 'exit' but that is not for me to ponder.
    FWIW - I love Europe! I love visiting European countries and taking in the culture and vibes, indeed I am of a European heritage myself, but I just hate the political construction that is the EU. Sorry!

    I assumed you were joking so was joining in.

    Yes I was joking. This country is screwed now cos of all those nasty racist brexit idiots.
    Dig the hole in the ground, order that Anderson shelter and hope for the best.
    We're all DOOOMED!! :shock:
    Outside the rat race and proud of it
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    mrfpb wrote:
    mrfpb wrote:
    . We as a nation have to decide what face we present to the world if we want them to stay and if we want others to come.

    NOT appointing Boris Johnson as Foreign Secretary would also be good.

    Oops, too late. :?

    Grand title but no responsibility?
  • bendertherobot
    bendertherobot Posts: 11,684
    Genius. May PM, Hammond Chancellor and, in effect, Clarkson as Foreign Secretary.
    My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
    https://twitter.com/roubaixcc
    Facebook? No. Just say no.

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