BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

prhymeate

Out of curiosity, does anyone have a rough idea of how many trade negotiators the UK has? I remember Philip Hammond recently saying that we would recruit people from around the world to work on our Brexit deal, but how many do we already have? Canada's trade minister Chrystia Freeland was being interviewed on Radio 4 this morning regarding the CETA trade agreement with the EU (an even closer relationship than they currently have with the US through the NAFTA). She said that Canada has 300 trade negotiators.

bendertherobot

Prhymeate wrote:

Out of curiosity, does anyone have a rough idea of how many trade negotiators the UK has? I remember Philip Hammond recently saying that we would recruit people from around the world to work on our Brexit deal, but how many do we already have? Canada's trade minister Chrystia Freeland was being interviewed on Radio 4 this morning regarding the CETA trade agreement with the EU (an even closer relationship than they currently have with the US through the NAFTA). She said that Canada has 300 trade negotiators.

Less than 40.

orraloon

Oliver Letwin, late of the role, was also R4 this morning.

His answer to the question, none. A number, not specified, of Brits work in role for the EU, and will / may be offered new jobs working for the UK. That's the sort of negotiating position I'd like to be in; at least those few individuals will be doing well out of Brexit.

prhymeate

Brilliant. :roll:

surrey_commuter

It may be worse than that. It is possible that there aren't enough in the world for for us to hire. Canada has 300 and is doing 1-2 deals at a time. We need to do lots all at once and we need people to negotiate with, so can not poach all their negotiators

wallace_and_gromit

Surrey Commuter wrote:

He compares the EU to the Nazis.

Boris's argument is maybe a bit subtle and is as follows:

1 - There have been various historical attempts to unite Europe as a single entity, by Napoleon, the Nazis and others. The EU is an attempt to unite Europe by different means.

So whilst there is a comparison to the Nazis, the conclusion is - unsurprisingly - that the EU and the Nazis are different. So whilst his reference to the Nazis was not a smart move, you'd need to be simple minded or simply looking for offence to conclude that Bozza was likening the EU to the Nazis (which is how his comment has been widely reported.)

2 - All such attempts have failed as there is no single European identify to which people can relate and therefore people are not naturally happy about being ruled/governed by a single European entity.

wallace_and_gromit

orraloon wrote:

...some unemployed 'Spooner in Scunthorpe has his country back.

I was feeling quite sympathetic until you went off on one with your parting shot. The tendencies for Remainers to simply insult the Leavers is the type of arrogance and inability to relate to their issues that has made the blandishments of Farage et al so tempting to the Leavers.

surrey_commuter

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

He compares the EU to the Nazis.

Boris's argument is maybe a bit subtle and is as follows:

1 - There have been various historical attempts to unite Europe as a single entity, by Napoleon, the Nazis and others. The EU is an attempt to unite Europe by different means.

So whilst there is a comparison to the Nazis, the conclusion is - unsurprisingly - that the EU and the Nazis are different. So whilst his reference to the Nazis was not a smart move, you'd need to be simple minded or simply looking for offence to conclude that Bozza was likening the EU to the Nazis (which is how his comment has been widely reported.)

2 - All such attempts have failed as there is no single European identify to which people can relate and therefore people are not naturally happy about being ruled/governed by a single European entity.

I get where you are coming from but in mid-may there was no subtle messaging.

He says the EU has similar goals to Hitler.

Allowed Germany to grow in power, take over Italy and destroy Greece.

You must understand that this is extremely sensitive to Germans and to call them simple minded or looking for offence is a bit much.

Anyway - is he a clown for not knowing the impact of mentioning EU/Nazis/Germany? Or did he know full well what he was doing?

wallace_and_gromit

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

He compares the EU to the Nazis.

Boris's argument is maybe a bit subtle and is as follows:

1 - There have been various historical attempts to unite Europe as a single entity, by Napoleon, the Nazis and others. The EU is an attempt to unite Europe by different means.

So whilst there is a comparison to the Nazis, the conclusion is - unsurprisingly - that the EU and the Nazis are different. So whilst his reference to the Nazis was not a smart move, you'd need to be simple minded or simply looking for offence to conclude that Bozza was likening the EU to the Nazis (which is how his comment has been widely reported.)

2 - All such attempts have failed as there is no single European identify to which people can relate and therefore people are not naturally happy about being ruled/governed by a single European entity.

I get where you are coming from but in mid-may there was no subtle messaging.

He says the EU has similar goals to Hitler.

Allowed Germany to grow in power, take over Italy and destroy Greece.

You must understand that this is extremely sensitive to Germans and to call them simple minded or looking for offence is a bit much.

Anyway - is he a clown for not knowing the impact of mentioning EU/Nazis/Germany? Or did he know full well what he was doing?

OK. I was only going off what I'd read in articles such as the quoted Telegraph article. (I avoided TV news for fear of smashing the screen in frustration at the poor arguments on both sides!) Though there is an element of truth in what Boris says about Italy and Greece. You don't think that Italy would have had its PM replaced with a technocrat and the Greek economy crucified without German agreement? Though equally, this was an EU scheme rather than a German one; Germany gets the blame simply because it is the most influential EU member.

Interestingly, Herr Schauble was quoted in the Telegraph today brushing Boris's comments under the carpet by reference to not understanding them due to English being his (Schauble's) second language and saying that the UK's desire for access to the single market post exit is "reasonable". If true, it seems the Germans are playing this as a "Let's sort this amicably for a mutally good result" rather than "Let's screw the British to maintain order". I do hope so!

rick_chasey

Diplomacy:

diplomacy
dɪˈpləʊməsi/Submit
noun
noun: diplomacy
1) the profession, activity, or skill of managing international relations, typically by a country's representatives abroad.
"an extensive round of diplomacy in the Middle East"

synonyms: statesmanship, statecraft;


2) the art of dealing with people in a sensitive and tactful way.
"with perfect diplomacy, he divided his attention between Meryl and Anthea"
synonyms: tact, tactfulness, sensitivity, discretion, subtlety, finesse, delicacy; More
antonyms: tactlessness


Boris ain't that.

orraloon

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

orraloon wrote:

...some unemployed 'Spooner in Scunthorpe has his country back.

I was feeling quite sympathetic until you went off on one with your parting shot. The tendencies for Remainers to simply insult the Leavers is the type of arrogance and inability to relate to their issues that has made the blandishments of Farage et al so tempting to the Leavers.

Is my point. Fuelled by the frankly deceitful messages of the Johnsons, Goves, IDS' et al of the Leave campaign, I understand the transposition of an Out vote into a xxxx you message to the 'elite'. Trouble is, we have an integrated society where, simplistically, taxes from the richer elements are redistributed to the poorer.

Xxxx you works both ways; my Scunthorpe 'Spooner will still expect free NHS care etc etc, all the benefits of an integrated society. Wilfully damaging the economic prospects of the 'other' 1/2 has consequences.

We have a deeply divided society, schisms driven deeper by the referendum confusion. Gonna be a tough one trying to repair.

surrey_commuter

orraloon wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

orraloon wrote:

...some unemployed 'Spooner in Scunthorpe has his country back.

I was feeling quite sympathetic until you went off on one with your parting shot. The tendencies for Remainers to simply insult the Leavers is the type of arrogance and inability to relate to their issues that has made the blandishments of Farage et al so tempting to the Leavers.

Is my point. Fuelled by the frankly deceitful messages of the Johnsons, Goves, IDS' et al of the Leave campaign, I understand the transposition of an Out vote into a xxxx you message to the 'elite'. Trouble is, we have an integrated society where, simplistically, taxes from the richer elements are redistributed to the poorer.

Xxxx you works both ways; my Scunthorpe 'Spooner will still expect free NHS care etc etc, all the benefits of an integrated society. Wilfully damaging the economic prospects of the 'other' 1/2 has consequences.

We have a deeply divided society, schisms driven deeper by the referendum confusion. Gonna be a tough one trying to repair.

My anger is more directed at Boris and co as they knew full well what the financial consequences for the average out voter would be. Now the likes of Farage are true believers but Boris is an opportunistic cunt who will have cost his followers far more than the people they think they are kicking.

verylonglegs

orraloon wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

orraloon wrote:

...some unemployed 'Spooner in Scunthorpe has his country back.

I was feeling quite sympathetic until you went off on one with your parting shot. The tendencies for Remainers to simply insult the Leavers is the type of arrogance and inability to relate to their issues that has made the blandishments of Farage et al so tempting to the Leavers.

Is my point. Fuelled by the frankly deceitful messages of the Johnsons, Goves, IDS' et al of the Leave campaign, I understand the transposition of an Out vote into a xxxx you message to the 'elite'. Trouble is, we have an integrated society where, simplistically, taxes from the richer elements are redistributed to the poorer.

Xxxx you works both ways; my Scunthorpe 'Spooner will still expect free NHS care etc etc, all the benefits of an integrated society. Wilfully damaging the economic prospects of the 'other' 1/2 has consequences.

We have a deeply divided society, schisms driven deeper by the referendum confusion. Gonna be a tough one trying to repair.

I've often thought of this point since the referendum. The notion that it was those with a crap deal in life kicking out at the establishment and trying to point out to them flaws in their arguments is somehow arrogant and talking down to them. Everyone here has access to free education and some of the best healthcare on the planet and you are given a chance to make the most of it. What more exactly are they asking for and expecting? It's a genuine question I have.

surrey_commuter

verylonglegs wrote:

orraloon wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

orraloon wrote:

...some unemployed 'Spooner in Scunthorpe has his country back.

I was feeling quite sympathetic until you went off on one with your parting shot. The tendencies for Remainers to simply insult the Leavers is the type of arrogance and inability to relate to their issues that has made the blandishments of Farage et al so tempting to the Leavers.

Is my point. Fuelled by the frankly deceitful messages of the Johnsons, Goves, IDS' et al of the Leave campaign, I understand the transposition of an Out vote into a xxxx you message to the 'elite'. Trouble is, we have an integrated society where, simplistically, taxes from the richer elements are redistributed to the poorer.

Xxxx you works both ways; my Scunthorpe 'Spooner will still expect free NHS care etc etc, all the benefits of an integrated society. Wilfully damaging the economic prospects of the 'other' 1/2 has consequences.

We have a deeply divided society, schisms driven deeper by the referendum confusion. Gonna be a tough one trying to repair.

I've often thought of this point since the referendum. The notion that it was those with a crap deal in life kicking out at the establishment and trying to point out to them flaws in their arguments is somehow arrogant and talking down to them. Everyone here has access to free education and some of the best healthcare on the planet and you are given a chance to make the most of it. What more exactly are they asking for and expecting? It's a genuine question I have.

I think it is a perception issue. I saw some research which said under Cameron the top 1% had done well but the gap between the working poor and the working rich had narrowed.

TheBigBean

If you google inequality in the UK there is mountains of information from a number of reliable institutions such as OECD, ONS and Bank of England. There are also a number of lobby groups and journalists.

As a basic summary, it appears that UK fares less well than most OECD countries. The graph below shows income equality over time. Note higher implies more inequality. The different colours are different methods of calculating it.



You could conclude from this that life is rosy or at least getting rosier; however, perhaps a more relevant measure would be wealth inequality. This is harder to find pretty pictures for. There are graphs showing the increase in net wealth due to the increasing asset values in the country, but I couldn't find a neat one like above. My feeling is that since house prices rocketed, incomes remained similar, so society became divided by those that own a house or will inherit one, and those that don't and have no chance.

Finally, the Bank of England published a paper supporting the idea that EU immigration has had a small negative impact on low / semi-skilled wages, but a postive impact on high skilled wages.

I think it is quite an interesting subject.

Edit - note typo - higher the graph greater the inequality.

Edit 2 - changed text with regard to original typo

finchy

verylonglegs wrote:

Everyone here has access to free education and some of the best healthcare on the planet and you are given a chance to make the most of it. What more exactly are they asking for and expecting? It's a genuine question I have.

The problem is the type of education. Not everyone is going to succeed in academic education (intelligence is partly nature, partly nurture, and nobody chooses their genes or the family environment into which they are born), we need decent technical education and then we need jobs for those people who do technical education to go into. We've got that for construction/trades, but with the decline in manufacturing, there are fewer opportunities for people from poorer backgrounds who don't shine academically to better themselves.

Also, as TheBigBean says, society is being divided along home owners vs. tenants lines, which is very much a generational issue.

verylonglegs

finchy wrote:

verylonglegs wrote:

Everyone here has access to free education and some of the best healthcare on the planet and you are given a chance to make the most of it. What more exactly are they asking for and expecting? It's a genuine question I have.

The problem is the type of education. Not everyone is going to succeed in academic education (intelligence is partly nature, partly nurture, and nobody chooses their genes or the family environment into which they are born), we need decent technical education and then we need jobs for those people who do technical education to go into. We've got that for construction/trades, but with the decline in manufacturing, there are fewer opportunities for people from poorer backgrounds who don't shine academically to better themselves.

Also, as TheBigBean says, society is being divided along home owners vs. tenants lines, which is very much a generational issue.

I fully understand the education issues, you pretty much described my exact career path, I left school with a single C grade in maths and used it to go to a FE college and study electronics and then work in our declining manufacturing sector. I can also relate to the point made by Mr Bean, despite my reasonably well skilled job and earnings I still had to save for over a decade to buy a house. Still doesn't explain what those struggling now think leaving the EU will achieve which was what I was asking. Hey-ho, we are going round in circles now. Also the events in Turkey suggest we may have bigger issues to worry about.

finchy

verylonglegs wrote:

Still doesn't explain what those struggling now think leaving the EU will achieve which was what I was asking.

I misunderstood you. I thought you were wondering why people are angry in general. I think that people are putting all the blame on immigration and imagine that by leaving the EU we'll be able to clamp down massively on the number of immigrants.

verylonglegs wrote:

Also the events in Turkey suggest we may have bigger issues to worry about.

I've got my fingers crossed that the military is intervening because they want to restore a secular government. I'm feeling optimistic on this one.

4kicks

finchy wrote:

verylonglegs wrote:

Everyone here has access to free education and some of the best healthcare on the planet and you are given a chance to make the most of it. What more exactly are they asking for and expecting? It's a genuine question I have.

The problem is the type of education. Not everyone is going to succeed in academic education (intelligence is partly nature, partly nurture, and nobody chooses their genes or the family environment into which they are born), we need decent technical education and then we need jobs for those people who do technical education to go into. We've got that for construction/trades, but with the decline in manufacturing, there are fewer opportunities for people from poorer backgrounds who don't shine academically to better themselves.

Also, as TheBigBean says, society is being divided along home owners vs. tenants lines, which is very much a generational issue.

Education is crucial but merely symptomatic of a society which has failed to make income inequality even an issue, where big banks get big bailouts (there was another Government solution, which f.e. the Swiss did when Swissair failed which would have left the bankers with nothing whilst guaranteeing the ongoing functioning of the bank) and steelmills get sold for a quid... regions and manufacturing are left for dead. Fit off Id move the houses of Parliament and "government" to Scunthorpe, or Padstow, and turn St James´into a giant ice rink. Or UFC venue.

diplodicus

TheBigBean wrote:

Edit - note typo - higher the graph greater the inequality.

From that graph it looks like inequality has increased since we have been in Europe

More seriously @Orraloon, what exactly is a 'Spooner and where does the expression come from? Obviously I get the derogatory connotation of the expression, but I haven't heard it before.

surrey_commuter

diplodicus wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Edit - note typo - higher the graph greater the inequality.

From that graph it looks like inequality has increased since we have been in Europe

More seriously @Orraloon, what exactly is a 'Spooner and where does the expression come from? Obviously I get the derogatory connotation of the expression, but I haven't heard it before.

The higher the line the greater the equality. I would love to hear any explanation for why it soared under Thatcher.

A 'Spooner is somebody who drinks in Wetherspoons.

diplodicus

Surrey Commuter wrote:

A 'Spooner is somebody who drinks in Wetherspoons.

Ah, of course!

Thanks

orraloon

diplodicus wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

A 'Spooner is somebody who drinks in Wetherspoons.

Ah, of course!

Thanks

I would extend to one who drinks in Wetherspoons habitually and at times the working population is, well, at work.

Stevo_666

Surrey Commuter wrote:

diplodicus wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Edit - note typo - higher the graph greater the inequality.

From that graph it looks like inequality has increased since we have been in Europe

More seriously @Orraloon, what exactly is a 'Spooner and where does the expression come from? Obviously I get the derogatory connotation of the expression, but I haven't heard it before.

The higher the line the greater the equality. I would love to hear any explanation for why it soared under Thatcher.

A 'Spooner is somebody who drinks in Wetherspoons.

I think youll find that income levels for the low paid have risen over time, its just that those on higher income levels have risen faster. Some on here like to imply it is due to the poor getting poorer which does not appear to be the case.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_Kingdom

See graphs under taxable income in that link.

Based on this, some might see the complaints about rising inequality as more about resentment of success than about the poor getting poorer.

TheBigBean

Surrey Commuter wrote:

diplodicus wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Edit - note typo - higher the graph greater the inequality.

From that graph it looks like inequality has increased since we have been in Europe

More seriously @Orraloon, what exactly is a 'Spooner and where does the expression come from? Obviously I get the derogatory connotation of the expression, but I haven't heard it before.

The higher the line the greater the equality. I would love to hear any explanation for why it soared under Thatcher.

A 'Spooner is somebody who drinks in Wetherspoons.

Income inequality soared under thatcher. It has since mostly improved.

surrey_commuter

TheBigBean wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

diplodicus wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Edit - note typo - higher the graph greater the inequality.

From that graph it looks like inequality has increased since we have been in Europe

More seriously @Orraloon, what exactly is a 'Spooner and where does the expression come from? Obviously I get the derogatory connotation of the expression, but I haven't heard it before.

The higher the line the greater the equality. I would love to hear any explanation for why it soared under Thatcher.

A 'Spooner is somebody who drinks in Wetherspoons.

Income inequality soared under thatcher. It has since mostly improved.

Other way round? Your original explanation said higher meant more equality

The inverse would suggest it moves in line with the economy/employemny

surrey_commuter

Stevo 666 wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

diplodicus wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Edit - note typo - higher the graph greater the inequality.

From that graph it looks like inequality has increased since we have been in Europe

More seriously @Orraloon, what exactly is a 'Spooner and where does the expression come from? Obviously I get the derogatory connotation of the expression, but I haven't heard it before.

The higher the line the greater the equality. I would love to hear any explanation for why it soared under Thatcher.

A 'Spooner is somebody who drinks in Wetherspoons.

I think youll find that income levels for the low paid have risen over time, its just that those on higher income levels have risen faster. Some on here like to imply it is due to the poor getting poorer which does not appear to be the case.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_Kingdom

See graphs under taxable income in that link.

Based on this, some might see the complaints about rising inequality as more about resentment of success than about the poor getting poorer.

I have never understood measuring poverty as a % - surely raising income levels for the poorest will raise the average.

As an old git I can remember when poverty was measured by things like having an outside toilet, car ownership, freezer, home telephone.

TheBigBean

Surrey Commuter wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

diplodicus wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Edit - note typo - higher the graph greater the inequality.

From that graph it looks like inequality has increased since we have been in Europe

More seriously @Orraloon, what exactly is a 'Spooner and where does the expression come from? Obviously I get the derogatory connotation of the expression, but I haven't heard it before.

The higher the line the greater the equality. I would love to hear any explanation for why it soared under Thatcher.

A 'Spooner is somebody who drinks in Wetherspoons.

Income inequality soared under thatcher. It has since mostly improved.

Other way round? Your original explanation said higher meant more equality

The inverse would suggest it moves in line with the economy/employemny

There was a typo hence I added the edit at the bottom. It is even quoted above.

surrey_commuter

TheBigBean wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

diplodicus wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Edit - note typo - higher the graph greater the inequality.

From that graph it looks like inequality has increased since we have been in Europe

More seriously @Orraloon, what exactly is a 'Spooner and where does the expression come from? Obviously I get the derogatory connotation of the expression, but I haven't heard it before.

The higher the line the greater the equality. I would love to hear any explanation for why it soared under Thatcher.

A 'Spooner is somebody who drinks in Wetherspoons.

Income inequality soared under thatcher. It has since mostly improved.

Other way round? Your original explanation said higher meant more equality

The inverse would suggest it moves in line with the economy/employemny

There was a typo hence I added the edit at the bottom. It is even quoted above.

Sorry - was so busy trying to figure out the graph and cause/effect I missed that.

Would love to see that overlaid with Economic growth and total employment as it does just seem to go up and down with the economic cycle.

Which echos my point that Brexit will be worse for the poorest in society

TheBigBean

There's enough data on ONS to do that, but I'm not volunteering. I think income inequality is a bit of a red herring, and wealth inequality is the issue. Still, some people would look at the graph and at Thatcher and talk about the glory days in the 70s.