JTL wants comeback

ocdupalais

DeVlaeminck wrote:

OCDuPalais wrote:

For context, has Sutton ever utterly endorsed the signing of a rider?

Yes there was one, Chris something, Aussie.

Was that Chris Thingy- erm, Cheam...no, Croydon! Chris Croydon.

Rodrego Hernandez

Macaloon wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

No shame in taking a gamble and losing. As long as you win more than you lose. Signing Froome to a big contract at the end of 2011 was a gamble. He'd only had one good race. He could have been a flash in the pan made to look good by relatively weak opposition.

Nonsense. They knew he had the physiology of a multi-tour winner, but this 'management genius' was prepared to ditch him because he didn't fit some BS results curve. Brailsford's reputation rests on the outrageous luck that Froome didn't crash early in the Vuelta, lose his Sky contract, and win several Tours for Vaughters.

This entire scenario is pure fantasy. Froome was the only one taking a gamble once he had a spot on the Vuelta team. Brailsford had not option but to keep hold of him.

dish_dash

Love how a question about Brian Smith swiftly moves to a discussion about Sky... :roll:

slowbike

CarbonClem wrote:

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

As a Millar supporter who forgave but didnt forget, I have mixed feelings about this.

He has done his time and is free to race as far as I am concerned.

I wish he had fessed up (if he is of course guilty) and that would have been a better fit.

I think this is the key point, JTL was busted, came up with a story that was either fantasy nonsense, or showed that he didnt deserve a pro contract for such unprofessional behaviour, and ahs since bullishly denied any wrongdoings but offered no reasonable explainations ... whilst continuing to act in a seemingly unprofessional manner.

Millar can be critisised for playing the crowd/game, offering platitudes and degrees of hypocrisy, but in general terms, he confessed, did his time and came back on a clean mission. JTL could learn a lot from his example.

I agree - IF JTL was doping then he should've just admitted it - taken the ban like a man and then come back (or not) a reformed rider.
If he wasn't doping - but just has no real idea what caused the anomalies in his blood passport - and the doctors can't come up with a plausable explanation then I'm not sure where he goes - he can't admit to doping because he wasn't - but neither can he explain his blood values - so the world thinks he was cheating when he wasn't (intending to).

The question comes down to whether or not his blood tests could give the results seen without doping - ie is there any other plausable explanation for it? From what I can gather - the answer is probably not ... which is why we are where we are now.

As for the Cat level he's come back at - what level do other banned riders come back at? Or doesn't that matter if you've got a pro contract?

DeVlaeminck

CarbonClem wrote:

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

As a Millar supporter who forgave but didnt forget, I have mixed feelings about this.

He has done his time and is free to race as far as I am concerned.

I wish he had fessed up (if he is of course guilty) and that would have been a better fit.

I think this is the key point, JTL was busted, came up with a story that was either fantasy nonsense, or showed that he didnt deserve a pro contract for such unprofessional behaviour, and ahs since bullishly denied any wrongdoings but offered no reasonable explainations ... whilst continuing to act in a seemingly unprofessional manner.

Millar can be critisised for playing the crowd/game, offering platitudes and degrees of hypocrisy, but in general terms, he confessed, did his time and came back on a clean mission. JTL could learn a lot from his example.

Of course Millar was a bigger talent and would have had advice from people in the sport to do exactly that, plus of course he cracked under police questioning so the choice was rather taken away from him. What would JTL have gained through admitting, would he now be employed by Sky to mentor young riders or have his own clothing range? I'm not saying Millar is being entirely cynical but had he not had the talent he has would he now be seen as a sinner who repented or just another doper?

schlepcycling

CarbonClem wrote:

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

As a Millar supporter who forgave but didnt forget, I have mixed feelings about this.

He has done his time and is free to race as far as I am concerned.

I wish he had fessed up (if he is of course guilty) and that would have been a better fit.

I think this is the key point, JTL was busted, came up with a story that was either fantasy nonsense, or showed that he didnt deserve a pro contract for such unprofessional behaviour, and ahs since bullishly denied any wrongdoings but offered no reasonable explainations ... whilst continuing to act in a seemingly unprofessional manner.

Millar can be critisised for playing the crowd/game, offering platitudes and degrees of hypocrisy, but in general terms, he confessed, did his time and came back on a clean mission. JTL could learn a lot from his example.

This is what pisses me off about this, people seem to think that Millar just confessed to his doping after some sort of road to Damascus conversion that made him anti doping. He was arrested and hauled off to a police station where he was interrogated and finally confessed, he didn't have much choice but to accept his punishment and ban. IIRC he blamed the sport, the teams the sponsors and anyone else he could think of for the pressure he felt to dope. At no point did he put his hand up and say 'I stuck the needle in my arm in order to improve my performance and win more races and earn more money. Then he comes back, seemingly everyone feels sorry for him and he's some sort of anti doping hero, although I hear very little from him on the various doping stories over recent years.
I'm no particular fan of JTL but as with accepting Millar back after his ban we have to accept JTL too, it seems the issue people have is that he still maintains that he didn't dope.

mechanism

Maybe if the French drugs squad had interrogated JTL things would have been different.

DeVlaeminck

schlepcycling wrote:

CarbonClem wrote:

IIRC he blamed the sport, the teams the sponsors and anyone else he could think of for the pressure he felt to dope. At no point did he put his hand up and say 'I stuck the needle in my arm in order to improve my performance and win more races and earn more money.

That's a good point - when i read his book I did think hang on a minute we understand there are pressures to succeed but you weren't doping to save your job and feed your family like some riders may have been you were a single bloke who by your own admission had enough talent to make a very decent living out of the sport clean, something which you'd been doing for years before doping.

carbonclem

DeVlaeminck wrote:

schlepcycling wrote:

CarbonClem wrote:

IIRC he blamed the sport, the teams the sponsors and anyone else he could think of for the pressure he felt to dope. At no point did he put his hand up and say 'I stuck the needle in my arm in order to improve my performance and win more races and earn more money.

That's a good point - when i read his book I did think hang on a minute we understand there are pressures to succeed but you weren't doping to save your job and feed your family like some riders may have been you were a single bloke who by your own admission had enough talent to make a very decent living out of the sport clean, something which you'd been doing for years before doping.

I think Ive been mis quoted ^^ here, but I generally agree, so no matter.

When I read his book, I didnt shift any blame from Millar, but just understood the pressures more. At the end of the day its all done to earn more money, success, kudos, whatever, but thats irrelevant because its is 'just' sport. Millars not perfect by a long way, but he's done more than most.

Loosely connected, it always amuses me when Floyd Landis is hailed as a hero of truth. He fessed up because he was cut out and had no other options. It was financially driven, it was driven by spite, it wasnt, I dont think, driven by concience.


Back to JTL, he can do what he likes as far as I care, hes done his time and he will go as far as his talent/reputation will take him now. It does seem odd though that all the guys who spoke up so very strongly for him in the first place dont seem to have given him any sort of helping hand to get going again?

Rodrego Hernandez

CarbonClem wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

schlepcycling wrote:

CarbonClem wrote:

IIRC he blamed the sport, the teams the sponsors and anyone else he could think of for the pressure he felt to dope. At no point did he put his hand up and say 'I stuck the needle in my arm in order to improve my performance and win more races and earn more money.

That's a good point - when i read his book I did think hang on a minute we understand there are pressures to succeed but you weren't doping to save your job and feed your family like some riders may have been you were a single bloke who by your own admission had enough talent to make a very decent living out of the sport clean, something which you'd been doing for years before doping.

I think Ive been mis quoted ^^ here, but I generally agree, so no matter.

When I read his book, I didnt shift any blame from Millar, but just understood the pressures more. At the end of the day its all done to earn more money, success, kudos, whatever, but thats irrelevant because its is 'just' sport. Millars not perfect by a long way, but he's done more than most.

Loosely connected, it always amuses me when Floyd Landis is hailed as a hero of truth. He fessed up because he was cut out and had no other options. It was financially driven, it was driven by spite, it wasnt, I dont think, driven by concience.


Back to JTL, he can do what he likes as far as I care, hes done his time and he will go as far as his talent/reputation will take him now. It does seem odd though that all the guys who spoke up so very strongly for him in the first place dont seem to have given him any sort of helping hand to get going again?

What has Millar done? He never named his suppliers, he never named anyone else involved. He was on a team of riders that had cheated and he was unaware, Danielson got popped and he has stayed silent, 3 of his team mates got out of season bans and he remained silent. Landis spilled the beans and Millar criticised him.

Landis brought Armstrong down. Millar helped get Iban Mayo popped.

That's the difference. Landis did some good for the sport. Millar was and is always out for himself.

JTL and Millar, both the same but Millar has better PR.

disgruntledgoat

So you would say, overall, you were a fan of David Millar then?

RichN95.

Millar did name his supplier. It was a doctor connected to one of the Spanish teams - I forget the name. He named Lelli as an enabler. And plenty more - this was to the Cofidis enquiry long before his book came out. He also informed on Saunier Duval while he was riding for them.

Landis took the right option only when he'd exhausted all the wrong ones - which included fraud, computer hacking and blackmail.

ocdupalais

CarbonClem wrote:

Back to JTL, he can do what he likes as far as I care, hes done his time and he will go as far as his talent/reputation will take him now. It does seem odd though that all the guys who spoke up so very strongly for him in the first place dont seem to have given him any sort of helping hand to get going again?

Perhaps, over time, the implausibility of his explanation for BP irregularities has sunk in and has superseded any initial loyalty or disbelief/wishful thinking by his former cohorts?

He can do what he likes as far as I care, too: his performances in early 2012 were electric and formed a perfect stepping stone from Cav's world title to Wiggins at Tour and Olympics. While his ban obviously takes the edge off that, I choose the positive outlook stance that, if he's innocent, he'll hopefully get back to somewhere approaching his former glory: if he is guilty, well, was I not entertained when he performed? And now he's done his time.

Rodrego Hernandez

RichN95 wrote:

Millar did name his supplier. It was a doctor connected to one of the Spanish teams - I forget the name. He named Lelli as an enabler. And plenty more - this was to the Cofidis enquiry long before his book came out. He also informed on Saunier Duval while he was riding for them.

Landis took the right option only when he'd exhausted all the wrong ones - which included fraud, computer hacking and blackmail.

Millar was also 'surprised' when Vino got popped and when Armstrong confessed.

Landis at least eventually did the right thing and brought down Armstrong. Millar brought down Mayo which is slightly less impressive.

Anyway, this is meant to be about JTL.

disgruntledgoat

Why should your worth as an anti doping spokesman be determined by who you have dirt on? Millar asked for his own team to be targeted for further testing, he spoke to UKAD with a view to improving their processes and he helped set up Slipstream.

What more would you have him do?

carbonclem

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

JTL and Millar, both the same but Millar has better PR.

Key difference , for me, was admitting he doped.

Richmond Racer 2

RichN95 wrote:

Millar did name his supplier. It was a doctor connected to one of the Spanish teams - I forget the name. He named Lelli as an enabler. And plenty more - this was to the Cofidis enquiry long before his book came out. He also informed on Saunier Duval while he was riding for them.

Landis took the right option only when he'd exhausted all the wrong ones - which included fraud, computer hacking and blackmail.

Rich is right in all of the above

And as for Landis...oh please.

Rodrego Hernandez

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Why should your worth as an anti doping spokesman be determined by who you have dirt on? Millar asked for his own team to be targeted for further testing, he spoke to UKAD with a view to improving their processes and he helped set up Slipstream.

What more would you have him do?

I'd prefer him to go interfere with another sport as he doesn't really have any credibility in cycling. He only admitted taking drugs when he was caught red handed. He was prepared to go to the Olympics, taking a clean riders place and cheat to win a gold medal. I'm sure JTL would have coughed if he was banged up.

Slipstream was already set up without his input. It then attracted other dopers like Heysjedal, Danielson, Vandervelve etc that put other clean riders out of work. If he was anti-doping he surely would have given clean riders a break rather than giving jobs to dopers?

ocdupalais

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

I'd prefer him to go interfere with another sport as he doesn't really have any credibility in cycling.

Some folk must deem him to have credibility seeing as they're producing his clothing line and giving him gigs teaching the cream of GB talented nippers what's what - and they're our future, you know.

Rodrego Hernandez

OCDuPalais wrote:

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

I'd prefer him to go interfere with another sport as he doesn't really have any credibility in cycling.

Some folk must deem him to have credibility seeing as they're producing his clothing line and giving him gigs teaching the cream of GB talented nippers what's what - and they're our future, you know.

Nope, someone thinks there's enough gullible chamois sniffers around to buy his lame clothing, which there most likely is.

He's not teaching the GB team. He's passing advice on to the U23 team. If they can look at a maserati driving cheat and think that it's not worth it then fair enough. To be honest, if they knew that being done for doping meant they would have to wear a stupid hat on telly that might put them off more.

ocdupalais

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

OCDuPalais wrote:

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

I'd prefer him to go interfere with another sport as he doesn't really have any credibility in cycling.

Some folk must deem him to have credibility seeing as they're producing his clothing line and giving him gigs teaching the cream of GB talented nippers what's what - and they're our future, you know.

Nope, someone thinks there's enough gullible chamois sniffers around to buy his lame clothing, which there most likely is.

He's not teaching the GB team. He's passing advice on to the U23 team. If they can look at a maserati driving cheat and think that it's not worth it then fair enough. To be honest, if they knew that being done for doping meant they would have to wear a stupid hat on telly that might put them off more.

You need a reality check, I'd say: have you not noticed how ridiculous cyclists already look in their costumes anyway!?!

Rodrego Hernandez

OCDuPalais wrote:

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

OCDuPalais wrote:

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

I'd prefer him to go interfere with another sport as he doesn't really have any credibility in cycling.

Some folk must deem him to have credibility seeing as they're producing his clothing line and giving him gigs teaching the cream of GB talented nippers what's what - and they're our future, you know.

Nope, someone thinks there's enough gullible chamois sniffers around to buy his lame clothing, which there most likely is.

He's not teaching the GB team. He's passing advice on to the U23 team. If they can look at a maserati driving cheat and think that it's not worth it then fair enough. To be honest, if they knew that being done for doping meant they would have to wear a stupid hat on telly that might put them off more.

You need a reality check, I'd say: have you not noticed how ridiculous cyclists already look in their costumes anyway!?!

Its great when it's called a costume!

yorkshireraw

Ref JTL - considering 2 of his most robust defenders are now involved at PC and WT level teams - it is surprising that if they consider the guy who could run top 20 in a tough worlds RR, 3 days after a raging bender, is clean, that they aren't snapping him up as he'd be available for virtually zero £0 surely?...

Ref Landis - as an anecdote to all his mad shenanigans post being busted, he also contacted an athlete who'd successfully won a failed testosterone level test hearing, to ask how he did it - but assuming incorrectly that the athlete was actually guilty and 'how had he got away with it'?'.

Ste_S

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

CarbonClem wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

schlepcycling wrote:

CarbonClem wrote:

IIRC he blamed the sport, the teams the sponsors and anyone else he could think of for the pressure he felt to dope. At no point did he put his hand up and say 'I stuck the needle in my arm in order to improve my performance and win more races and earn more money.

That's a good point - when i read his book I did think hang on a minute we understand there are pressures to succeed but you weren't doping to save your job and feed your family like some riders may have been you were a single bloke who by your own admission had enough talent to make a very decent living out of the sport clean, something which you'd been doing for years before doping.

I think Ive been mis quoted ^^ here, but I generally agree, so no matter.

When I read his book, I didnt shift any blame from Millar, but just understood the pressures more. At the end of the day its all done to earn more money, success, kudos, whatever, but thats irrelevant because its is 'just' sport. Millars not perfect by a long way, but he's done more than most.

Loosely connected, it always amuses me when Floyd Landis is hailed as a hero of truth. He fessed up because he was cut out and had no other options. It was financially driven, it was driven by spite, it wasnt, I dont think, driven by concience.


Back to JTL, he can do what he likes as far as I care, hes done his time and he will go as far as his talent/reputation will take him now. It does seem odd though that all the guys who spoke up so very strongly for him in the first place dont seem to have given him any sort of helping hand to get going again?

What has Millar done? He never named his suppliers, he never named anyone else involved. He was on a team of riders that had cheated and he was unaware, Danielson got popped and he has stayed silent, 3 of his team mates got out of season bans and he remained silent. Landis spilled the beans and Millar criticised him.

Landis brought Armstrong down. Millar helped get Iban Mayo popped.

That's the difference. Landis did some good for the sport. Millar was and is always out for himself.

JTL and Millar, both the same but Millar has better PR.

The same Landis who started the Floyd Fairness Fund. The same Landis who attempted to hack the computers of the anti-doping lab that caught him cheating at the TdeF. The same Landis who attempted to blackmail people, including threatening to revel Greg Lemond's abuse as a child after Lemond had confided in him.
Landis only came 'clean' and worked with USADA after he failed to blackmail Armstrong into giving him a ride on his team

Landis is scum, plain and simple

Rodrego Hernandez

Ste_S wrote:

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

CarbonClem wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

schlepcycling wrote:

CarbonClem wrote:

IIRC he blamed the sport, the teams the sponsors and anyone else he could think of for the pressure he felt to dope. At no point did he put his hand up and say 'I stuck the needle in my arm in order to improve my performance and win more races and earn more money.

That's a good point - when i read his book I did think hang on a minute we understand there are pressures to succeed but you weren't doping to save your job and feed your family like some riders may have been you were a single bloke who by your own admission had enough talent to make a very decent living out of the sport clean, something which you'd been doing for years before doping.

I think Ive been mis quoted ^^ here, but I generally agree, so no matter.

When I read his book, I didnt shift any blame from Millar, but just understood the pressures more. At the end of the day its all done to earn more money, success, kudos, whatever, but thats irrelevant because its is 'just' sport. Millars not perfect by a long way, but he's done more than most.

Loosely connected, it always amuses me when Floyd Landis is hailed as a hero of truth. He fessed up because he was cut out and had no other options. It was financially driven, it was driven by spite, it wasnt, I dont think, driven by concience.


Back to JTL, he can do what he likes as far as I care, hes done his time and he will go as far as his talent/reputation will take him now. It does seem odd though that all the guys who spoke up so very strongly for him in the first place dont seem to have given him any sort of helping hand to get going again?

What has Millar done? He never named his suppliers, he never named anyone else involved. He was on a team of riders that had cheated and he was unaware, Danielson got popped and he has stayed silent, 3 of his team mates got out of season bans and he remained silent. Landis spilled the beans and Millar criticised him.

Landis brought Armstrong down. Millar helped get Iban Mayo popped.

That's the difference. Landis did some good for the sport. Millar was and is always out for himself.

JTL and Millar, both the same but Millar has better PR.

The same Landis who started the Floyd Fairness Fund. The same Landis who attempted to hack the computers of the anti-doping lab that caught him cheating at the TdeF. The same Landis who attempted to blackmail people, including threatening to revel Greg Lemond's abuse as a child after Lemond had confided in him.
Landis only came 'clean' and worked with USADA after he failed to blackmail Armstrong into giving him a ride on his team

Landis is scum, plain and simple

He didn't do the bolded bits and he did bring down Armstrong.

disgruntledgoat

No his lawyer took it upon himself to do it, completely without any input from Floyd who was the person Lemond told about his abuse.

itboffin

disgruntledgoat wrote:

So you would say, overall, you were a fan of David Millar then?

i have to agree but what has millar done to out the evil in the sport? name names?

as for JTL if he's served his bans and if he has the ability then he's as entitled as all the other past cheats to carry on, personally i dont care about drugs in sport, i've always been of the opinion that controls to ensure athlete well being should come first.

iainf72

Also, Floyd technically didn't setup the Floyd Fairness Fund...

The Loyal Lieutenant

Can JTL compete at the top level unassisted? I have always felt the answer to be no.

briantrumpet

"JTL admits to being 10kg overweight"