JTL wants comeback

Richmond Racer 2

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Brian Smith comes across as a decent guy who loves cycling and who backed a rider he believed was clean, seems to be pretty much what Sky did too given they signed him. Even if he had some doubts at the time what was he meant to say - "yeah JTL has been great for us, so good in fact there's got to be a chance he's juiced" ?

I don't think Sky deserve much criticism for signing him btw, possibly they had the resources to check him out more than Endura did but unless they wilfully turned a blind eye to evidence he was a doper it's just one of those things.

Sky only signed him because Vaughters was going to and Dave B didn't want to lose face. He was told not to sign him but he did anyway.

Holy moly, for once you and I agree

Rodrego Hernandez

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Brian Smith comes across as a decent guy who loves cycling and who backed a rider he believed was clean, seems to be pretty much what Sky did too given they signed him. Even if he had some doubts at the time what was he meant to say - "yeah JTL has been great for us, so good in fact there's got to be a chance he's juiced" ?

I don't think Sky deserve much criticism for signing him btw, possibly they had the resources to check him out more than Endura did but unless they wilfully turned a blind eye to evidence he was a doper it's just one of those things.

Sky only signed him because Vaughters was going to and Dave B didn't want to lose face. He was told not to sign him but he did anyway.

Holy moly, for once you and I agree

Even a broken clock is right twice a day ;-)

specialgueststar

inseine wrote:

SpecialGuestStar wrote:

OCDuPalais wrote:

My man!

Brian Smith at Dimension Data, for example would want to snap up a rider of his calibre?

I don't think he's ever heard of him??

“I can’t explain any of the irregularities but I would definitely vouch 100 per cent for John,” Smith, who was Endura's general manager, told Cyclingnews.

“For me, I don’t know how he’s going to explain this to the UCI but I don’t think he should have anything to worry about. I can put my hand up though and say 100 per cent that I don’t think he was doping at Endura Racing. There was no suspicion, no nothing.”

not sure you got the subtlety

ocdupalais

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Brian Smith comes across as a decent guy who loves cycling and who backed a rider he believed was clean, seems to be pretty much what Sky did too given they signed him. Even if he had some doubts at the time what was he meant to say - "yeah JTL has been great for us, so good in fact there's got to be a chance he's juiced" ?

I don't think Sky deserve much criticism for signing him btw, possibly they had the resources to check him out more than Endura did but unless they wilfully turned a blind eye to evidence he was a doper it's just one of those things.

Sky only signed him because Vaughters was going to and Dave B didn't want to lose face. He was told not to sign him but he did anyway.

Who told him not to sign?

Rodrego Hernandez

OCDuPalais wrote:

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Brian Smith comes across as a decent guy who loves cycling and who backed a rider he believed was clean, seems to be pretty much what Sky did too given they signed him. Even if he had some doubts at the time what was he meant to say - "yeah JTL has been great for us, so good in fact there's got to be a chance he's juiced" ?

I don't think Sky deserve much criticism for signing him btw, possibly they had the resources to check him out more than Endura did but unless they wilfully turned a blind eye to evidence he was a doper it's just one of those things.

Sky only signed him because Vaughters was going to and Dave B didn't want to lose face. He was told not to sign him but he did anyway.

Who told him not to sign?

One of his people at the team who knew that JTL was too good to be true, and was proved right

RichN95.

OCDuPalais wrote:

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Brian Smith comes across as a decent guy who loves cycling and who backed a rider he believed was clean, seems to be pretty much what Sky did too given they signed him. Even if he had some doubts at the time what was he meant to say - "yeah JTL has been great for us, so good in fact there's got to be a chance he's juiced" ?

I don't think Sky deserve much criticism for signing him btw, possibly they had the resources to check him out more than Endura did but unless they wilfully turned a blind eye to evidence he was a doper it's just one of those things.

Sky only signed him because Vaughters was going to and Dave B didn't want to lose face. He was told not to sign him but he did anyway.

Who told him not to sign?

Shane Sutton for one, apparently.

Richmond Racer 2

OCDuPalais wrote:

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Brian Smith comes across as a decent guy who loves cycling and who backed a rider he believed was clean, seems to be pretty much what Sky did too given they signed him. Even if he had some doubts at the time what was he meant to say - "yeah JTL has been great for us, so good in fact there's got to be a chance he's juiced" ?

I don't think Sky deserve much criticism for signing him btw, possibly they had the resources to check him out more than Endura did but unless they wilfully turned a blind eye to evidence he was a doper it's just one of those things.

Sky only signed him because Vaughters was going to and Dave B didn't want to lose face. He was told not to sign him but he did anyway.

Who told him not to sign?

Shane Sutton

DeVlaeminck

Maybe DB was just more willing to take the risk of JTL being a doper than Shane Sutton was. Maybe DB saw a youngish British rider with an interesting back story coming out of the domestic scene and thought that's one of the reasons he helped set up the team.

It's interesting that SS said that but I still can't find it in me to be too hard on Brailsford or Smith come to that - unless it's proven they had evidence JTL was a doper or deliberately avoided looking for evidence aren't they just guilty in seeing the best in someone ?

Richmond Racer 2

It was dumb. It was risky. And it backfired.

Badly.

Macaloon

Another addition to the Brailsford management genius canon. It's a travesty he's won so few manager of the month accolades.

Richmond Racer 2

It was dumb and it was highly risky, ESPECIALLY as the the Leinders business started to break around May 2012.

And it backfired spectacularly.

argyllflyer

It fueled the Asylum's hunt for smoke for another 3 years as well.

Rodrego Hernandez

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Maybe DB was just more willing to take the risk of JTL being a doper than Shane Sutton was. Maybe DB saw a youngish British rider with an interesting back story coming out of the domestic scene and thought that's one of the reasons he helped set up the team.

It's interesting that SS said that but I still can't find it in me to be too hard on Brailsford or Smith come to that - unless it's proven they had evidence JTL was a doper or deliberately avoided looking for evidence aren't they just guilty in seeing the best in someone ?

Ask around about Smiths history and you'll be even more surprised that he missed the warning signs about JTL.

And as for Dave B, ego over-rules any rational thought in some of his decisions. The Leinders one being a perfect example, and telling Sky that they took him on to learn what other teams were doing was very risky too.

inseine

Specialguaststar wrote 'not sure you got the subtlety'
I assumed it was that but sometimes it's hard to know!

DeVlaeminck

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

Ask around about Smiths history and you'll be even more surprised that he missed the warning signs about JTL.

And as for Dave B, ego over-rules any rational thought in some of his decisions. The Leinders one being a perfect example, and telling Sky that they took him on to learn what other teams were doing was very risky too.

Not sure what you are getting at - what will asking around reveal about Brian Smith ?

iainf72

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

It was dumb. It was risky. And it backfired.

Badly.

And the lesson is, listen to Sutton

ocdupalais

For context, has Sutton ever utterly endorsed the signing of a rider?

Richmond Racer 2

^yep

Scouted a fair few riders for Sky

This isn't a Shane thing

This is a Brailsford thing.

disgruntledgoat

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

^yep

Scouted a fair few riders for Sky

This isn't a Shane thing

This is a Brailsford thing.

Heart above head? He does that more than his public persona would betray. Millar springs to mind

RichN95.

No shame in taking a gamble and losing. As long as you win more than you lose. Signing Froome to a big contract at the end of 2011 was a gamble. He'd only had one good race. He could have been a flash in the pan made to look good by relatively weak opposition.

ocdupalais

Brilliant.
So now we're at a point where Brailsford is the evil mastermind of all things dull in modern professional cycling - constantly striving for certainty and perfection in a world of variables and taking all the romance away; whilst simultaneously being the sort of reckless plonker who hires any old chancer and drives a Bently with a personalised numberplate.

Rodrego Hernandez

RichN95 wrote:

No shame in taking a gamble and losing. As long as you win more than you lose. Signing Froome to a big contract at the end of 2011 was a gamble. He'd only had one good race. He could have been a flash in the pan made to look good by relatively weak opposition.

Luckily he was a good responder.

Macaloon

RichN95 wrote:

No shame in taking a gamble and losing. As long as you win more than you lose. Signing Froome to a big contract at the end of 2011 was a gamble. He'd only had one good race. He could have been a flash in the pan made to look good by relatively weak opposition.

Nonsense. They knew he had the physiology of a multi-tour winner, but this 'management genius' was prepared to ditch him because he didn't fit some BS results curve. Brailsford's reputation rests on the outrageous luck that Froome didn't crash early in the Vuelta, lose his Sky contract, and win several Tours for Vaughters.

Macaloon

Tedious, fatuous guff. Withdrawn.

Richmond Racer 2

Umm...Maca...

Awks.

Richmond Racer 2

OCDuPalais wrote:

Brilliant.
So now we're at a point where Brailsford is the evil mastermind of all things dull in modern professional cycling - constantly striving for certainty and perfection in a world of variables and taking all the romance away; whilst simultaneously being the sort of reckless plonker who hires any old chancer and drives a Bently with a personalised numberplate.

Brailsford is no less flawed than most people. He's achieved some incredible things, but he's also made some massive balls-ups.

We should be able to have a discussion about some of the latter instances, without people reacting like we're insulting their nearest and dearest.

Macaloon

Deleted. Dupe.

jimmythecuckoo

As a Millar supporter who forgave but didnt forget, I have mixed feelings about this.

He has done his time and is free to race as far as I am concerned.

I wish he had fessed up (if he is of course guilty) and that would have been a better fit.

DeVlaeminck

OCDuPalais wrote:

For context, has Sutton ever utterly endorsed the signing of a rider?

Yes there was one, Chris something, Aussie.

carbonclem

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

As a Millar supporter who forgave but didnt forget, I have mixed feelings about this.

He has done his time and is free to race as far as I am concerned.

I wish he had fessed up (if he is of course guilty) and that would have been a better fit.

I think this is the key point, JTL was busted, came up with a story that was either fantasy nonsense, or showed that he didnt deserve a pro contract for such unprofessional behaviour, and ahs since bullishly denied any wrongdoings but offered no reasonable explainations ... whilst continuing to act in a seemingly unprofessional manner.

Millar can be critisised for playing the crowd/game, offering platitudes and degrees of hypocrisy, but in general terms, he confessed, did his time and came back on a clean mission. JTL could learn a lot from his example.