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JTL wants comeback

ozzzyosborn206ozzzyosborn206 Posts: 1,340
edited April 2017 in Pro race
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/32417426

Whats peoples thoughts on this? still don't but into his excuse, will be interesting to see if he is welcomed back to the UK scene and if race organisers will let him have entry to their races
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  • tailwindhometailwindhome Posts: 16,671
    Good luck to him I say.
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  • salsiccia1salsiccia1 Posts: 3,715
    I might be in the minority on this, but once he's done the punishment set out then he should be free to do what he likes.
    It's only a bit of sport, Mun. Relax and enjoy the racing.
  • hammeritehammerite Posts: 3,408
    Not really sure what I think about it all to be honest. I don't want to believe his excuse, yet it's a similar excuse to that of Charly Wegelius and I quite like Charly.

    But reading that report makes me feel slightly better, I've been off the bike for longer than JTL and have put on less weight.
  • argyllflyerargyllflyer Posts: 893
    80kg at his height? To think of the jibes that Fat Cat Carlos gets as he waddles about the flabbier end of the peloton.
  • Mad_MalxMad_Malx Posts: 4,369
    like the way the article suggests the weight gaIn is muscle.
  • ProssPross Posts: 29,595
    Salsiccia1 wrote:
    I might be in the minority on this, but once he's done the punishment set out then he should be free to do what he likes.

    I'd generally agree with this on a first offence but only when the rider accepts he did wrong and got caught. I'd have more respect for his wish to race again if he had just manned up and admitted he cheated.
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    hammerite wrote:
    Not really sure what I think about it all to be honest. I don't want to believe his excuse, yet it's a similar excuse to that of Charly Wegelius and I quite like Charly.


    ???
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • graeme_s-2graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    80kg at his height? To think of the jibes that Fat Cat Carlos gets as he waddles about the flabbier end of the peloton.
    Haha! 80kg!? That's heavier than I am (barely :oops:) and I'm 6ft. Love the description in the article that it's muscle :lol:. So he wants to return to racing, and to prepare for this he's taken up body building during his ban? Right.
  • hammeritehammerite Posts: 3,408
    iainf72 wrote:
    hammerite wrote:
    Not really sure what I think about it all to be honest. I don't want to believe his excuse, yet it's a similar excuse to that of Charly Wegelius and I quite like Charly.


    ???

    I may be mistaken, but I'm sure one of the reasons Wegelius attributed to his failed test (which I know he didn't receive ban for various reasons) was dehydration after not really looking after himself too much as he wasn't expecting to be racing that weekend (think he may have said something about having a few drinks).

    Didn't JTL say something about boozing and being dehydrated?

    I'm not encyclopaedic on such matters so may have the wrong end of the stick - which is the reason I usually steer clear of discussions about doping.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,480
    hammerite wrote:
    I may be mistaken, but I'm sure one of the reasons Wegelius attributed to his failed test (which I know he didn't receive ban for various reasons) was dehydration after not really looking after himself too much as he wasn't expecting to be racing that weekend (think he may have said something about having a few drinks).
    Wegelius attributed his high HCT to genetics. He did tests and it was shown to be naturally high - and so was his dad's. It's quite common in Finns I believe.

    I think Rob Hayles may have blamed dehydration (again supported by further testing). But that's just going over the 50% limit.

    JTL's offence had a lot more damning and unexplainable numbers. The bio passport is more sophisticated than the arbitary 50% limit - hence why it can lead to a two year ban, not a two week rest.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • hammeritehammerite Posts: 3,408
    RichN95 wrote:
    hammerite wrote:
    I may be mistaken, but I'm sure one of the reasons Wegelius attributed to his failed test (which I know he didn't receive ban for various reasons) was dehydration after not really looking after himself too much as he wasn't expecting to be racing that weekend (think he may have said something about having a few drinks).
    Wegelius attributed his high HCT to genetics. He did tests and it was shown to be naturally high - and so was his dad's. It's quite common in Finns I believe.

    I think Rob Hayles may have blamed dehydration (again supported by further testing). But that's just going over the 50% limit.

    JTL's offence had a lot more damning and unexplainable numbers. The bio passport is more sophisticated than the arbitary 50% limit - hence why it can lead to a two year ban, not a two week rest.

    Fair enough.
    Was aware of the genetics/lack of a spleen. Just checked Wegelius' book and he does pretty much say that his unusually high HCT could've been pushed over due to dehydration from getting boozed up (and jet lagged) following Millar's WC win.

    But as you say JLT's case is different to this.
  • awaveyawavey Posts: 2,368
    Pross wrote:
    Salsiccia1 wrote:
    I might be in the minority on this, but once he's done the punishment set out then he should be free to do what he likes.

    I'd generally agree with this on a first offence but only when the rider accepts he did wrong and got caught. I'd have more respect for his wish to race again if he had just manned up and admitted he cheated.

    I agree, and the whole Ive still got the jerseys & photos is all too reminiscent of others who cheated, its not a good line to pedal so to speak,but is it true though the UCI say admission is equivalent to a positive test not that it would lead to another ban, but I thought part of his submission for claiming innocence was in effect never having failed such a test

    but 80kg, suddenly I dont feel so fat anymore :)
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 23,203
    I dream of being 80kg :(
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • The_BoyThe_Boy Posts: 3,099
    Tell me about it. I've lost 20kg in the last 12-18 months and still have another fifteen to go to get to my target of 70kg.

    I still get to call Betancur 'fatty' though, cos I was totally his fanboi for ages and he lets me down at every turn.

    Re: JTL. he's hardly the first doper to want to get back into the sport so if he can find a ride then so be it. Not sure anyone would want to touch him for some reason I can't quite put into words though.
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  • TaliusTalius Posts: 282
    Definitely do not want to see a JTL comeback. He can stick with the property business.

    He was, by all accounts - i.e uci and relevant experts - juiced to the eyeballs, enough to get some pretty spectacular results and be leading the europe tour etc. The first time he moved onto the passport he was found out. The uci didn't believe his pitiful excuse and i dont see why anyone else should.

    Fair enough ( well not fair enough but slightly less damning....) if it had been 10 years ago when life was different, but this was 2012/13. A successful, as if nothing had happened, return would be v depressing. And yes the ban is for2 years and he can legally return after that. But teams aren't obliged to take him on, and not sure why they'd want to.
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  • ddraverddraver Posts: 23,203
    Agree with everything Talius, but given who won Fleche Wallone yesterday it would be the height of hypocrisy not to allow him back. I doubt he'll be deluged with good offers though
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • bigmatbigmat Posts: 5,127
    Can't imagine a clean JTL after a 2 year lay off would be capable of anything better than domestic level racing and at his age and with his baggage, I think he would be well advised to find something else to focus his efforts on. If he wants to keep racing though, he has served his ban and should be allowed back in at whatever level is appropriate (in my opinion). Another violation and it'll be 4 years and curtains presumably?
  • jibberjimjibberjim Posts: 2,810
    ddraver wrote:
    Agree with everything Talius, but given who won Fleche Wallone yesterday it would be the height of hypocrisy not to allow him back. I doubt he'll be deluged with good offers though

    Hypocrisy for the protour perhaps, or are you suggesting UK domestic racing is similarly bent?

    Hopefully UK organisers will simply return his entry, they do not have to accept him in any race.
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  • above_the_cowsabove_the_cows Posts: 11,318
    Graeme_S wrote:
    80kg at his height? To think of the jibes that Fat Cat Carlos gets as he waddles about the flabbier end of the peloton.
    Haha! 80kg!? That's heavier than I am (barely :oops:) and I'm 6ft. Love the description in the article that it's muscle :lol:. So he wants to return to racing, and to prepare for this he's taken up body building during his ban? Right.

    He's going to turn him into a track sprint king and is trying to emulate Robert Fostermann who's legs* alone weigh 80kg**


    *Don't anyone dare post a pic of his legs!
    **OK this might not be true.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 23,203
    jibberjim wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    Agree with everything Talius, but given who won Fleche Wallone yesterday it would be the height of hypocrisy not to allow him back. I doubt he'll be deluged with good offers though

    Hypocrisy for the protour perhaps, or are you suggesting UK domestic racing is similarly bent?

    Hopefully UK organisers will simply return his entry, they do not have to accept him in any race.

    Depends what level he comes back at really...

    I'd be hesitant to believe that the UK scene is any cleaner/dirtier than the Pro Tour though
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 7,310
    I haven't got a problem with him c oming back - he served his time and if he really was juiced to the eyeballs first time round he wont get any results this time or else he'll get caught again.
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  • AshbeckAshbeck Posts: 235
    Who would have him though?

    If you take the view that he's done his time and should be let back in then technically you've got to let Armstrong back. (I'm not starting another LA debate here, just saying.. :) )
  • jimmythecuckoojimmythecuckoo Posts: 4,558
    Salsiccia1 wrote:
    I might be in the minority on this, but once he's done the punishment set out then he should be free to do what he likes.
    I kind of agree. But I like an admission and a sorry to ideally.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,480
    Ashbeck wrote:
    Who would have him though?

    If you take the view that he's done his time and should be let back in then technically you've got to let Armstrong back. (I'm not starting another LA debate here, just saying.. :) )
    Armstrong got banned for life though, not two years. (Whether or not you think that was right is another matter).
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • jimmythecuckoojimmythecuckoo Posts: 4,558
    Ashbeck wrote:
    Who would have him though?
    NFTO. Heard it here first.
  • AshbeckAshbeck Posts: 235
    The thing with JTL for me is that I simply don't know where his actual ability lies. When he won, before joining Sky, was he off his tjts on the juice winning these races? or was he winning clean?
    When he went to Sky his performances seemed to drop like a stone, often getting dropped off the back of a 4% climb faster than my nan.
    So was he on the gear winning then got the big contract and thought "shjjjte..i gotta get clean maann", came off it, suffered performance wise?

    I just don't know, I have trouble placing him 'ability wise' or am i the only one?
  • AshbeckAshbeck Posts: 235
    RichN95 wrote:
    Ashbeck wrote:
    Who would have him though?

    If you take the view that he's done his time and should be let back in then technically you've got to let Armstrong back. (I'm not starting another LA debate here, just saying.. :) )
    Armstrong got banned for life though, not two years. (Whether or not you think that was right is another matter).

    Im not starting another LA debate Rich :)
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,480
    Ashbeck wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Ashbeck wrote:
    Who would have him though?

    If you take the view that he's done his time and should be let back in then technically you've got to let Armstrong back. (I'm not starting another LA debate here, just saying.. :) )
    Armstrong got banned for life though, not two years. (Whether or not you think that was right is another matter).

    Im not starting another LA debate Rich :)
    Good.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • jimmythecuckoojimmythecuckoo Posts: 4,558
    Whats's he up to nowadays?












    ;)
  • ocdupalaisocdupalais Posts: 3,947
    If he doped, then the practices he used were sophisticated enough to avoid detection from the many tests he'd have taken all the way back to before he was showing dominance on the climbs of the ToB back in his Condor kit - but clearly not so sophisticated to outwit the Biological Passport. On that basis, should he return to racing, he could continue in a similar vein (geddit?), and pootle about in lower level racing and use his old techniques.
    Depending on who you listen to, this is either an easy line to tread (with a minimum of know how), or a difficult tightrope to walk almost certainly requiring the expertise of, er, an expert.
    Alternatively, he didn't dope - and will continue not to dope - and his performances in racing would fall into 2 catagories: a return to his former best level, or mediocrity. Either way, JTL should volunteer himself for all the testing necessary to satisfy the most ardent cynic that he's clean.

    Should he get back to his best - with rigorous testing; that would be him doing his utmost to prove he was clean all along.
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