Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

ugo.santalucia

THis is going in circles and I am getting a bit bored, so I say this one last time and then that's it.

1) Every revolution of the wheel is a cycle of load-unload. FACT
2) Every cycle as above causes elastic deformation of the wheel as a whole and of the spokes. FACT
3) Deformation might be very small or less small, I have no evidence one way or the other, I cannot quantify, but it occurs... it is very simple engineering. FACT
4) I say that typically this is noticeable by the rider. Very much so when moving from plain gauge to butted spokes, but to a lesser extent even moving from butted spokes to more butted spokes. SUBJECTIVE

I haven't come across a single rider who didn't notice the difference between a plain gauge spoke and a butted one, when allowed to try both in similar conditions.

It's not a question of which party you vote for or which God you pray... it is a question of whether you notice or not notice a particular FACT. If you don't notice it, that's great, but you cannot deny facts, or claim that something is unimportant simply because you don't notice it, or even worse accusing people of talking BS when they are simply stating facts.

Also, saying that one FACT is more important than another one without any number to back it up, is very SUBJECTIVE. I am not denying that tyres might have a more important role than spokes, but again I have no number to compare, so it is a matter of individual perception. I notice zero difference between 90 PSI or 100 PSI for the same tyre, but I do notice a difference in spokes... maybe tyre pressure is more important, but I seem to notice it less... maybe I should be sectioned as a result of having different perceptions...

turbotommy

Hi guys

I’ve bought a track frame to replace my commuter that’s just been nicked and I’d be very grateful for some wheel advice.

I’m planning to run it as a fixie and 95% of the time on London roads. I weigh 80kg. I like the idea of getting a wheelset built around H plus son rims just because they seem to get great feed back but I’m open to other suggestions too. I’d like reliability / durability first and foremost, but lighter is always nice too... I get the impression fixie wheelsets are generally close to 2kg? Hubs, spoke counts etc, I have no educated idea basically... so very grateful for any advice.

ugo.santalucia

TurboTommy wrote:

Hi guys

I’ve bought a track frame to replace my commuter that’s just been nicked and I’d be very grateful for some wheel advice.

I’m planning to run it as a fixie and 95% of the time on London roads. I weigh 80kg. I like the idea of getting a wheelset built around H plus son rims just because they seem to get great feed back but I’m open to other suggestions too. I’d like reliability / durability first and foremost, but lighter is always nice too... I get the impression fixie wheelsets are generally close to 2kg? Hubs, spoke counts etc, I have no educated idea basically... so very grateful for any advice.

There is no reason to overengineer a non-dished wheel, so allow yourself plush light spokes front and rear. Novatec hubs or Miche are as good as any

turbotommy

Thanks Ugo. Any idea on spoke count?

ugo.santalucia

TurboTommy wrote:

Thanks Ugo. Any idea on spoke count?

You don't have much choice with those hubs, typically they come in pairs of 32, but if you do then 24/32 would be a good choice...

Moonbiker

Is using plain gauge spokes for Paris Roubaix a myth or just out of date?

timothyw

Well, I know a lot of people talk about throwing away the wheels after Paris Roubaix, so on that basis it might be cheaper.

I guess also it's a pretty flat ride so weight savings aren't particularly required?

In terms of strength benefits, they're nonexistent. Spokes don't break in the mid section.

ugo.santalucia

Plain gauge spokes do not last longer... in fact the evidence is the opposite.

Wheels survive Paris-Roubaix very well, a friend of mine has done it 6 times

roubaixmb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Plain gauge spokes do not last longer... in fact the evidence is the opposite.

Wheels survive Paris-Roubaix very well, a friend of mine has done it 6 times

Well done your friend but a pointless anecdote in this context without knowing which wheels he used and which spokes. Did he do all 6 on the same set of wheels with no spoke changes?

drlodge

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Wheels survive Paris-Roubaix very well, a friend of mine has done it 6 times

My Trigger wheels have last 27 years and I maintain them meticulously. I've replaced the rims and spokes 8 times and the hubs 3 times, they'll likely last forever.

ugo.santalucia

RoubaixMB wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Plain gauge spokes do not last longer... in fact the evidence is the opposite.

Wheels survive Paris-Roubaix very well, a friend of mine has done it 6 times

Well done your friend but a pointless anecdote in this context without knowing which wheels he used and which spokes. Did he do all 6 on the same set of wheels with no spoke changes?

Ambrosio Excellence on Record hubs, Sapim Race spokes, 32 front and rear. Rims were replaced for wear at some point... I seem to recall before 2014

Holcombe Hound

Hi.
Forgive me for not reading the previous 115 pages of this thread, I did have a look but couldn't see what I was looking for. I'm after a pair of light climbing wheels. I was considering buying a set of Dura-ace R9100 C24 which weigh in at about 1400g and you can pick a pair up for around £700 at the moment but wondered how light I could go handbuilt for similar money (for just the components not the cost of the build). It seems like a minefield out there, can anyone point me towards a website that might help? Any recommendations would be welcome too. Thanks.

cycleclinic

Mavic open pro UST rims in 24f/28r can be built into light wheels which are stiffer than than the c24 and need not cost more. They can cost less depending on the hubs.

In fact they could be done sub 1300g. 1400g.is easy with bitex hubs.

The Shimano ç24 wheels are the best example of a wheelset that scarifices everything desirable for low weight. If you put a set of da hubs in the mavic rims in the spoke count I suggest it will be heavier but so much better to ride on with longer spoke life.



Ugo I don't think I ever compared the comfort or feel of plain guage to double butted. I just disputed the comfort benefit of race to lasers. Also your fact repeated what I have said and you have. So it has gone full circle now.

This thread needs to be arguement free. Debate is good but no aggravation.

Holcombe Hound

Thanks cycleclinic.
What is the difference between Bitex RAF10 and RAF12? Is it the bearing size?
Which would you recommend? (The RAF10 is cheaper and lighter - they seem to be too good to be true!) I'm 68kg.
Thanks

svetty

thecycleclinic wrote:

Mavic open pro UST rims in 24f/28r can be built into light wheels which are stiffer than than the c24 and need not cost more. They can cost less depending on the hubs.

In fact they could be done sub 1300g. 1400g.is easy with bitex hubs.

The Shimano ç24 wheels are the best example of a wheelset that scarifices everything desirable for low weight. If you put a set of da hubs in the mavic rims in the spoke count I suggest it will be heavier but so much better to ride on with longer spoke life.



Ugo I don't think I ever compared the comfort or feel of plain guage to double butted. I just disputed the comfort benefit of race to lasers. Also your fact repeated what I have said and you have. So it has gone full circle now.

This thread needs to be arguement free. Debate is good but no aggravation.

I have had a set of DA C24s (or rather their 2007 equivalent) for 11 years now. Brake tracks are now just reaching wear-out margins. They weigh 1380gms without skewers. I have ridden them all over the place, crashed them, generally abused them. I weigh 80kgs and they are still stiff and true......

sloppyschleckonds

I wouldn't get too giddy about Bitex hubs. Strong, light & cheap. Pick 2.

Holcombe Hound

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

I wouldn't get too giddy about Bitex hubs. Strong, light & cheap. Pick 2.

What is the downside then? Do they not last (therefore I should buy a spare aswell?)
Can you recommend an alternative (for not too much ore money?)

Thanks

roubaixmb

Holcombe Hound wrote:

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

I wouldn't get too giddy about Bitex hubs. Strong, light & cheap. Pick 2.

What is the downside then? Do they not last (therefore I should buy a spare aswell?)
Can you recommend an alternative (for not too much ore money?)

Thanks

Don't hold your breath, Sloppy is not known for his helpful contributions....

mrb123

Holcombe Hound wrote:

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

I wouldn't get too giddy about Bitex hubs. Strong, light & cheap. Pick 2.

What is the downside then? Do they not last (therefore I should buy a spare aswell?)
Can you recommend an alternative (for not too much ore money?)

Thanks

There's nothing much wrong with them for the money. Same goes for Novatecs. Ok, they're not built like a Chris King or Royce, but for the money - for a lightweight summer build - they're fine.

cycleclinic

svetty they may be true but they are not stiff. if you dont believe me place the rear wheel nds end cap facing down on the floor and psuh on the rims. watch it flop and go badly out of true, possibly never to recover.
do not confuse lack of brake rub and the wheels being stiff. in fact brake rub and lateral wheel stiffness are not related in the way you think.

The RAF10 has micro bearings. the RAF12 just has mini bearings. the small bearing in the front hub are quite reliable. it not an all weather but neither it turns out are chris king hubs (frequent servicing needed). Royce are in a different league to everything else and have there own gravity field to show for it.

The Bitex RAR12 is not a bad hub. I you have a choice between the Novatec F482 and the Bitex hub pick the bitex it seems more reliable.

ajkerr73

I have a Defy Advanced Pro 1 (disc brake) with Wheelcraft built H Plus Son on Hope Pro 4 hubs - 36/36 (I weight 103kg ish). These wheels have been bullet proof.

I am currently speccing a Shand Stooshie with etap and want a set of wheels to go with this build.

Strangely enough (for a rider of my weight), I've recently got into climbing and would like to spec a set of wheels that would be focused on climbing but retain some level of durability.

Are there any options significantly better available than the build above weight wise which might be suitable for my weight (and compliment the bike build visually)?

Budget is up to £800

timothyw

Seems a bit strange building climbing wheels for a steel frame bike to be honest! Would it not make sense to perhaps get new wheels for the Defy (which I'd imagine to be a little lighter, or at least have the potential to be...)

36x36 spoke counts are rather overkill for your weight unless you are aggressively descending on horrible roads, although disk brakes do push up the requirements.

I'd suggest 32 rear 28 spoke front, perhaps 24 spoke front if you have a sturdy rim such as Kinlin Xr31t and avoid potholes/bad roads.

For added peace of mind you could push the rear to 36 spoke, although it does limit some of your choices as not all rims/hubs are available in that drilling.

With that budget carbon isn't impossible, although I'm not sure what the more experienced wheelbuilders feel about light carbon rims and clydesdale builds? Certainly aero wise you gain very little against the Kinlin, and weight might be as easy to save on hubs/cx ray spokes.

cycleclinic

The main issue with Carbon and heavier riders is brake track heating on decents and the low spoke count. The lower spoke count is not always a problem it just depends on the rider.

32 spoke wheels with triple butted spokes will be fine with a wide, rounded profile rim. It does not even have to be deep. I would avoid "climbing wheels" as nothing climbs slower than a wheel with a broken spoke.

If you had the kinlin xr22t rim built onto campagnolo rims record hubs that would be relatively light compared to what the op has. So a climbing wheel relatively speaking.

mrb123

I think he's wanting disc brake wheels so the overheating issue of carbon rims wouldn't be a problem for him.

dangardner27

Looking for some advice please. I'm after a new set of wheels for my Scott CR1 to replace the original Ksyriums which are on their last legs. I want them to be reasonably light and stiff but serviceable in France. I currently have Archetypes on Ultegra hubs (which are superb) on my winter bike but my LBS in France don't inspire confidence in servicing Shimano hubs.

Anyone had any experience of building up using the new wider Mavic Open Pro Rim (are there any significant advantages over the Archetypes?) - any advice on their suitability / durability for a heavier rider, was thinking of getting them built with Miche Primato hubs and Sapim race spokes (105kg)?

cycleclinic

Well then even my carbon disc brake wheels cost more than £800. Still a 32 spoke wheelset is not a daft option and it will be under 1750g with the kinlin XR22T disc brake rims. the wheels he has currently are 2kg at least.

The new Opn rpo rim is nice but very light. It should hold you in 32 spoke form but all roads lead to kinlin. The XR22T with washers will hold your weight and be a lovely wheelset in 32 spoke form. miche hubs have easily available spares. The Mavic rim is the only other rims to rival the Kinlin XR22T. everything else just cost more without providing a benefit (pacenti, HED DT Swiss.....). Tubeless compatibility for the two rims is also perfect. The archetype is narrower, heavier and not tubeless compatible. It is a decent rim and its only USP is if your building for a 130kg rider, that it does well.

Oh tyre fitting to the kinlins is easier than the mavic rim.

ajkerr73

thecycleclinic wrote:

Well then even my carbon disc brake wheels cost more than £800. Still a 32 spoke wheelset is not a daft option and it will be under 1750g with the kinlin XR22T disc brake rims. the wheels he has currently are 2kg at least.

The new Opn rpo rim is nice but very light. It should hold you in 32 spoke form but all roads lead to kinlin. The XR22T with washers will hold your weight and be a lovely wheelset in 32 spoke form. miche hubs have easily available spares. The Mavic rim is the only other rims to rival the Kinlin XR22T. everything else just cost more without providing a benefit (pacenti, HED DT Swiss.....). Tubeless compatibility for the two rims is also perfect. The archetype is narrower, heavier and not tubeless compatible. It is a decent rim and its only USP is if your building for a 130kg rider, that it does well.

Oh tyre fitting to the kinlins is easier than the mavic rim.

Fantastic

Thanks for that. Would you recommend 32/32?

PS. I'm sure I saw a post earlier that summed up what I want perfectly "not climbing wheels as such, but wheels that might climb better than my current set up"

Holcombe Hound

Where do people buy sapim spokes (in the UK?). I don't know the length I need yet as my rims (mavic open pros) and hubs (Bitex RAF 10/RAR 12) haven't arrived yet so haven't been able to calculate them yet. Thanks

cycleclinic

Ajkerr miche hubs come in 32/32 pairs. So that makes it easier. Expect a set to weight 1800g with the kinlins. Weight can be lost with lighter hubs but why?

Where can't you buy sapims in the UK is an easier question to answer. Actually which shop you go to depends on the spoke you want. For example I don't buy d lights or black Sapim race but I buy black Sapim force in 1mm increments from 280mm to 294mm.

beanstalk

thecycleclinic wrote:

in fact brake rub and lateral wheel stiffness are not related in the way you think.

How are they related.