Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

pgmabley

Great service from Malcolm with my tyre and bits and bobs delivery. Will be using again next time I build some wheels.

dinyull

thecycleclinic wrote:

steady on I never said anything warranty 0.05mm out of true!

Malcolm, I have a question and please tell me to do one if you like.

How come they're so expensive?

There's been a few threads on her recently about cheap carbon wheels - direct from china and others from zuus/bax/prime etc.

I'm completely in the dark with wheel building, but if your getting your (carbon) rims from the far east is it the other parts or your labour that makes up the price difference?

I'm not trying to call you out, just genuinely interested.

timothyw

CX-Ray spokes aren't cheap. I've no idea what the cost price is on the 50mm rims but I'd imagine that Malcolm has not gone for a cheap option so much as one that he has found to be of good quality that will have the reliability for him to stake his name and reputation on them.

Aside from anything else, Malcolm's offering is cheaper than the Prime option which has all the buying power and economies of scale of the Wiggle/CRC/Bike24 monster behind it: http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/prim ... prod142950

And he's offering at cost crash replacement, which isn't free - neither is the excellent warranty, although I'm sure he puts the time in to ensure that this is rarely an issue.

He also has to pay Duty and VAT on the parts that he is importing, which is often an afterthought when pricing up far eastern options. He also has to live off the proceeds, which in the UK is not cheap.

I build all my own wheels, and deep carbon is a case of something that far exceeds what is justified by my ability on a bike, but if I were buying a set of wheels I wouldn't think twice about paying the apparent premium for Malcolm's offering.

drlodge

Dinyull wrote:

How come they're so expensive?

I don't think £800 is expensive, and I have a set of his 50 C tubeless wheels. They're nice wheels for a good price I think, which is why I bought a set.

Don't know what the rims cost him, but they're likely the most expensive single part, then there's hubs and the cost of CX-rays on top of that (which aren't cheap). Then add sundries...tape, valve etc. Oh and some labour. And a bit of profit. If you include tyres in the order, they'll be mounted free including sealant. I would also add you're not just paying for parts and labour, there's also the research (time) that went into finding and sourcing these rims.

Before I had these wheels, I had some 50mm tubular wheels made up by Ugo using rims from Planet-X that cost £99 each with Novatec hubs and standard spokes. About the cheapest possible way to get carbon wheels and even then it cost me circa £500 all in IIRC (that might have included the tyres).

The price of Malcolm's wheels has gone up over the past year I believe, when I bought mine, tyres were included in the order but he was then offering 10% BC discount, I think I paid Circa £800 including IRC roadlite tyres but exchange rates have moved unfavourably and everything has got more expensive to import.

What other deep carbon wheels can you buy for anywhere near £800?

dinyull

I think I've seen bax and Zuus for around £600 and these (although disc) for £450 http://www.wiggle.co.uk/prime-rr-50-car ... heelset-1/ Then there's the direct from China at less than £400.

I understand the benefit of Malcolm's knowledge and guarantees etc.

Maybe it's just the way I read that article, as the far-east link is in one of the first lines. So makes me compare the wheels to a farsport etc offering.

svetty

Agree Borgs price not at all excessive - just compare these to Enve, Zipp, etc. CX-rays aren't cheap, the rims need to be imported with duties paid. The hubs are reasonably priced (albeit a little heavy), are reliable and easy to service so a good choice.

I doubt that Malcolm lives in a mansion or drives an exotic Italian sports car but may be wrong on this

ugo.santalucia

Svetty wrote:

I doubt that Malcolm lives in a mansion or drives an exotic Italian sports car but may be wrong on this

No, but he has 20 bikes...

pgmabley

For a bit of context, my wheel build was Kinlin 31 rims, 20h front, 24h rear, sapim cx ray with alloy nipples, hope RS4 hubs set up tubeless with Schwalbe Pro-1. Total cost £512 built myself including tape, valves, tyres, sealant so just over £400 for the wheels themselves built myself no labour cost. The £800 for a carbon wheelset built seems fair to me.

Forget Wiggle etc, they just sell cheap whatever and you have zero support.

timothyw

Yeah, and it's also fair to point out that he's still charging a fraction of what you pay for a big brand equivalent - start looking at Campag, Mavic and Zipp 50mm clinchers if you want to see expensive.

For a sole trader with limited turnover it's not bad going is it?

veronese68

Dinyull wrote:

Maybe it's just the way I read that article, as the far-east link is in one of the first lines. So makes me compare the wheels to a farsport etc offering.

I think that bit is leading you to compare apples and lemons, I don't think they are comparable as others have said.

cycleclinic

I drive a £500 car sometimes though (bought in 2011 as well so it worthless now). So money saved on a car gets spent on bikes. the right way round.

JackVet

Just do the alloy nips on the front.

Or drive your wheel builder crazy and do NDS alu with DS brass. They love that.

shirley_basso

Thoughts on a cheap (sub £300?), light (1.4kg) wheelset (17mm internal max), stiff enough for 75kg rider, don't have to be particularly durable (read:weatherproof) as won't be ridden much.

Thinking cheap and light novatec/bitex hubs on some Kinlin XR200 or similar? I think I'd go Sapim Race rather than CX Ray for the cost, then 20/24 F/R?

Struggling to see past the Cero AR24s at present but no idea what the above (or similar) config would cost. Thanks,

timothyw

ACI Alpina double butted spokes are slightly lighter than Sapim Race/DT Comp and quite significantly cheaper too, you can find them on 'Cycle basket'.

The new open pro UST rims are £42 on CRC - http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/mavi ... prod164747

Slightly cheaper and slightly heavier are the Kinlin XR-22T rims, also tubeless compatible, with the benefit of an asymmetric option for the rear which gives better tension balance - you can get them from Spa cycles or the cycle clinic.

Novatec hubs are decent enough, and can occasionally be had at firesale prices from planet x branded as 'selcof', although only in fairly high drillings. I've never used bitex so can't really comment.

svetty

Lasers should be OK at 75kgs, perhaps with Race on the D/S rear...

bobones

Shirley Basso wrote:

Thoughts on a cheap (sub £300?), light (1.4kg) wheelset (17mm internal max), stiff enough for 75kg rider, don't have to be particularly durable (read:weatherproof) as won't be ridden much.

Thinking cheap and light novatec/bitex hubs on some Kinlin XR200 or similar? I think I'd go Sapim Race rather than CX Ray for the cost, then 20/24 F/R?

Struggling to see past the Cero AR24s at present but no idea what the above (or similar) config would cost. Thanks,

You can get a few ideas on this site, for example:

https://www.slowbuild.eu/aluclincher/op ... ex-1393gr/

(Use Chrome translate)

I ended up buying the AR24s myself as I couldn't see how I could build anything as light so cheaply. The rims are a bit narrow by today's standards at 17mm, and I broke a NDS spoke on an 80 mile ride the other week so definitely check the spokes for tightness and evenness of tension.

My wheel was still rideable with the broken spoke: in fact, I didn't notice it until a fellow rider told me my wheel was buckled. On inspection, it was rubbing the brake pads slightly, but I straightened it up easily enough by adjusting the tension on a couple of adjacent spokes. When I replaced the spoke at home, I gave the rest of them an extra turn as the tensions seemed pretty low with a tubeless tyre fitted. Despite this hassle, I really do love riding these wheels, and they feel silky smooth with the Maxxis Padrones I have on them.

mrb123

TimothyW wrote:

ACI Alpina double butted spokes are slightly lighter than Sapim Race/DT Comp and quite significantly cheaper too, you can find them on 'Cycle basket'.

The new open pro UST rims are £42 on CRC - http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/mavi ... prod164747

Slightly cheaper and slightly heavier are the Kinlin XR-22T rims, also tubeless compatible, with the benefit of an asymmetric option for the rear which gives better tension balance - you can get them from Spa cycles or the cycle clinic.

Novatec hubs are decent enough, and can occasionally be had at firesale prices from planet x branded as 'selcof', although only in fairly high drillings. I've never used bitex so can't really comment.

This.

Those Mavics are an absolute steal at that price and tick all your boxes.

Personal preference would be for Bitex over Novatec but both would be fine for what you plan to use them for. If you're in no hurry you've got time to hunt around for a good deal.

I'd always go 28 spokes for the rear but you might be ok with 24 if you're looking to save every gram.

torino

bobones wrote:

I ended up buying the AR24s myself as I couldn't see how I could build anything as light so cheaply. The rims are a bit narrow by today's standards at 17mm, and I broke a NDS spoke on an 80 mile ride the other week so definitely check the spokes for tightness and evenness of tension.

My wheel was still rideable with the broken spoke: in fact, I didn't notice it until a fellow rider told me my wheel was buckled. On inspection, it was rubbing the brake pads slightly, but I straightened it up easily enough by adjusting the tension on a couple of adjacent spokes. When I replaced the spoke at home, I gave the rest of them an extra turn as the tensions seemed pretty low with a tubeless tyre fitted. Despite this hassle, I really do love riding these wheels, and they feel silky smooth with the Maxxis Padrones I have on them.

I guess the reason why it broke is that same as why you did not notice it: the spoke was too loose and barely affecting the lateral trueness of the wheel.

cycleclinic

dont built the XR200 in a 24 spoke rear. it wont even be close to durable. It will feel flexy and frankly be a shit wheel for a grown up. for a light youth rider or very light lady they are fine.

On a positive note miche are looking at producing an all steel freehub for the primato hub. There will be a MOQ for these and they will be a special for me really but so long as its not 500 then it will happen. There was one rider who had a failure on the start of a hill climb that has prompted this. I dont like failures.

cycleclinic

Wheels also fail because they are not stiff enough so the spokes experience bigger length changes and fatigue faster. Those ar24's even if they are well built don't look stiff enough to me to handle a broad range of riders until the rims wears out. The rim is 24mm ish deep and is 22 wide and uses a fairly thin spoke at the back. I have built wheels like that before and found they failed so I don't do them anymore.

In contrast to make a 24 spoke rear reliable I think you need a wider deeper rim and thicker spokes. I know that works. I don't think that spoke failure is down to spoke tensions. Low or variable tension just made the failure happen sooner.

bungalballs

Hi all. I posted a while ago about a wheel build, but I have changed plans based on what’s on offer. I have a pair of archetype hard-ano rims and Ultegra hubs, 32hole. I’m 78kg, aiming for year round, durable wheels.

Which spokes? I thinking laser front, laser rear nds, d-light ds, 2x front 3x rear. I have found d-lights cheaper than race. I’m not worried about a few grams of weight, but have heard race spokes can make wheels feel ‘dull’, any truth in this? I don’t want to build wheels that aren’t fun to ride.

cycleclinic

Why make it so complicated. This is not a weight weenie wheelset and silver spokes look best so why add cost when sapim race or dt comps are all you need. Define dull, there is alot of meaningless twaddle on the web.

290mm front 288/289mm rear.

bungalballs

thecycleclinic wrote:

Why make it so complicated. This is not a weight weenie wheelset and silver spokes look best so why add cost when sapim race or dt comps are all you need. Define dull, there is alot of meaningless twaddle on the web.

290mm front 288/289mm rear.

Dull as in lifeless...?

Bearing in mind I have found both lasers and d-lights in the correct length cheaper than race, would you still just go for race? Definitely silver either way though.

Thanks for your input though, you are right I’m looking for simple but durable.

cycleclinic

Also 3x all round. 2x on the front does nothing and simply looks like your trying be clever with the lacing.

2x nds /3x D's rear is simply daft. It reduces torsional stiffness and makes tension balance marginally worse. I know there are pages on web extolling the virtues of this type of lacing and differential lacing but it is based on faulty physics or at least placing too much importance on things that are not at the expensive of attributes that are important.

Race spokes are not lifeless, think about it how can they be.

Given the trade price of lasers and d lights are 50% higher than race I don't know how you have found that pricing. Race are around £0.50 each in silver.

bungalballs

Ok so 3x front and rear. Best online price I have found for race is 53p, d-light is 49p so I think I’ll try the d-light on the rear unless there is a reason not to other than cost.

I was only ever planning 3x on the rear, not mixing ds and nds, not sure where that has come from.

cycleclinic

I sell race for £0.50 so you have not looked hard enough. D lights will be fine though. You get a lighter wheel. Not sure you'll notice though.

agent_buchwald

is it advisable to lubricate nipples on a carbon rim build and what would you use? It seems wrong to use nothing but oil doesn't seem right, waterproof grease?

sisleybarnes1

Bar Shaker wrote:

I think of factory wheels as racehorses and hand built wheels as camels. Both have their place... decide which you want.

I personally never buy anything asking "if I smash it up how hard will it be to replace?" If we did, who would buy carbon frames costing thousands of pounds?

In fact if we did ask that, we would all be riding camels and none of us would know what it was like to ride a race horse.

100% agree, you will never know what is better for you until you try.

drlodge

sisleybarnes1 wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

I think of factory wheels as racehorses and hand built wheels as camels. Both have their place... decide which you want.

I personally never buy anything asking "if I smash it up how hard will it be to replace?" If we did, who would buy carbon frames costing thousands of pounds?

In fact if we did ask that, we would all be riding camels and none of us would know what it was like to ride a race horse.

100% agree, you will never know what is better for you until you try.

Race horses vs camels? Nonsense, I don't get the analogy one bit.

cycleclinic

Camels can be as quick as race horses. I think the confusion comes when people think of hanbuilt wheels as 32 spoke Mavic open pro' ( narrow and shallow) on Shimano hubs. These next to a campagnolo Zonda do feel a bit slower. Not surprising really.