Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

ugo.santalucia · July 2018

Holcombe Hound wrote:

Where do people buy sapim spokes (in the UK?). I don't know the length I need yet as my rims (mavic open pros) and hubs (Bitex RAF 10/RAR 12) haven't arrived yet so haven't been able to calculate them yet. Thanks

For small quantities I've always used Just Riding Along... best to wait, measure and calculate

bungalballs · July 2018

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Holcombe Hound wrote:

Where do people buy sapim spokes (in the UK?). I don't know the length I need yet as my rims (mavic open pros) and hubs (Bitex RAF 10/RAR 12) haven't arrived yet so haven't been able to calculate them yet. Thanks

For small quantities I've always used Just Riding Along... best to wait, measure and calculate

J E James also have some very good prices on certain spokes particularly D-Light. However, I placed my first order with them some time ago (weeks) and not delivered yet. JRA were very quick. Depends if you are in a rush?

timothyw · July 2018

Holcombe Hound wrote:

Where do people buy sapim spokes (in the UK?). I don't know the length I need yet as my rims (mavic open pros) and hubs (Bitex RAF 10/RAR 12) haven't arrived yet so haven't been able to calculate them yet. Thanks

Malcolm quotes the measurements for all these items on his product pages so you can do the calculations now, you might want to thank him for that useful information by buying Sapim spokes from him - prices are excellent too:
https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections/spokes

You can do the calculations with those measurements in a range of ways, I'd suggest Edd:
https://leonard.io/edd/

Or freespoke:
http://www.kstoerz.com/freespoke/fullcalc

es993 · July 2018

Agent Buchwald wrote:

is it advisable to lubricate nipples on a carbon rim build and what would you use? It seems wrong to use nothing but oil doesn't seem right, waterproof grease?

Lubricate the nipples with a small amount of oil underneath the nipple head. This will help bring the wheel up to tension easier and will reduce spoke wind-up.

es993 · July 2018

Agent Buchwald wrote:

is it advisable to lubricate nipples on a carbon rim build and what would you use? It seems wrong to use nothing but oil doesn't seem right, waterproof grease?

Lubricate the interface between the nipple shoulder
and the rim using your favorite thin lubricant such as Triflow, Progold,
etc.

timothyw · July 2018

While it will make it easier to tension the spoke, can't see how it'll help wind-up.

Wind-up is affected by grease/oil at the interface between the nipple and spoke, not between the nipple and rim.

cycleclinic · July 2018

brake rub and lateral wheel stiffness are not related in a direct way. a set of mavic gel280 tubular which i can assure you are not stiff at all give no brake rub beanstalk. However a deep set of carbon wheels do if i set the pads too close. simply brake rub is not a guide to how stiff a wheel is but it a guide to how stiff the rim is.

have read of this article. it is also the reason why i dont do carbon rims deeper and wider than i do. if I did I would have to use stiffer spokes and they would get too heavy to sell. I was also asked today why mine have 24 spokes at the rear and not 20, this is the reason why. carbon rims need all the help they can get. Hense the easton E90 i have to rebuild with its 20 sapim CX-ray spokes is always going to be a bit of a rubber.

https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Debunki ... _3449.html

Camcycle1974 · July 2018

So Malcolm, would you say that carbon wheels are largely for the aesthetics? I have the Kinlin xr31's that you converted to tubeless for me and they are a lovely wheel. Light(ish), semi aero and perfectly decent to ride but a part of me wants carbon wheels because they look better! Would you say that a pair of 50mm carbon wheels would make a noticeable difference to performance, given that I ride mainly on the flat?

cycleclinic · July 2018

The aero gains of deeper wheels are real. One mistake often made is putting a tyre wider than the rim. Take mine at 26.2mm at there widest point. Some people put 25mm conti on which sit 28mm wide. Well there no point aero speaking doing that. For that tyre a rim 30mm wide is needed.

For long tt's I use my 50's because they add some speed. They are more comfortable too, that's adds speed by itself. Regardless of what rim you use the drag is minimised by tyres slightly narrower than the rim. However then you have to avoid holes.

One day I do some indoor velodrome tests to try to quantify the gain.

timothyw · July 2018

There are some numbers here -
https://flocycling.com/aero.php

The flo 30 rim is fairly similar in performance to the XR31t (in fact, slightly worse).

Deep carbon might save you thirty seconds over a 25 mile TT - in a crit/road race where most of the time you are drafting it's very unlikely to make a result-altering difference, although you might gain an extra inch or two in a sprint.

If you can't hold the wheels on the club run/chain gang, again, very unlikely to make a difference. Better to invest in a power meter/turbo trainer/coaching program.

Camcycle1974 · July 2018

thecycleclinic wrote:

The aero gains of deeper wheels are real. One mistake often made is putting a tyre wider than the rim. Take mine at 26.2mm at there widest point. Some people put 25mm conti on which sit 28mm wide. Well there no point aero speaking doing that. For that tyre a rim 30mm wide is needed.

For long tt's I use my 50's because they add some speed. They are more comfortable too, that's adds speed by itself. Regardless of what rim you use the drag is minimised by tyres slightly narrower than the rim. However then you have to avoid holes.

One day I do some indoor velodrome tests to try to quantify the gain.

Thanks for the info. I guess my Kinlins with 25mm Road lites are not that aero then as they sit at least 28mm wide on the 24mm rims?I'll get some 50's in due course for the flat roads round here.

Camcycle1974 · July 2018

TimothyW wrote:

There are some numbers here -
https://flocycling.com/aero.php

The flo 30 rim is fairly similar in performance to the XR31t (in fact, slightly worse).

Deep carbon might save you thirty seconds over a 25 mile TT - in a crit/road race where most of the time you are drafting it's very unlikely to make a result-altering difference, although you might gain an extra inch or two in a sprint.

If you can't hold the wheels on the club run/chain gang, again, very unlikely to make a difference. Better to invest in a power meter/turbo trainer/coaching
program.

No problem holding the wheels, I want to be able to ride off the front more easily.

troj · July 2018

I have two questions regards hand built wheels. I've just broke a spoke near the nipple on the rear. What is usually the cause of a spoke break near the nipple? I've only broken spokes near the head of the spoke. Secondly the rim is asymmetric what side should the high side be on? ie closest to the drive side or non drive side?

drlodge · July 2018

Spokes nearly always break near one end or the other, more often at opposite end to the nipple. Spoke breakage is often cased by lack of spoke tension and/or inconsistent spoke tension.

On an asymmetric rim, spoke holes should be offset towards the non-drive side.

troj · July 2018

I have Pacenti Forza rims and it looks to me that the high side is on the drive side. Could this cause spokes to wear faster than normal?

drlodge · July 2018

troj wrote:

I have Pacenti Forza rims and it looks to me that the high side is on the drive side. Could this cause spokes to wear faster than normal?

Assuming the high side is the side the spokes are offset, it sounds as though the rim has been put on the wrong way round, which I find hard to believe. It would take a real numpty to do this and would make the wheel very weak and I'm surprised the wheel hasn't collapsed.

Can you post a photo?

veronese68 · July 2018

troj wrote:

I have Pacenti Forza rims and it looks to me that the high side is on the drive side. Could this cause spokes to wear faster than normal?

As above the spokes should be offset to wards the non-drive side. Hopefully the diagram below will illustrate the point.

troj · July 2018

Thanks Drlodge and Veronese68. No point posting a photo as it's obvious that the rim is the opposite way round to the Offset Design diagram. I didn't even look at the wheel after the wheel was rebuilt because a crack in the hub shell.

ugo.santalucia · July 2018

troj wrote:

Thanks Drlodge and Veronese68. No point posting a photo as it's obvious that the rim is the opposite way round to the Offset Design diagram. I didn't even look at the wheel after the wheel was rebuilt because a crack in the hub shell.

Suggest you change builder...

An offset rim used the wrong way round will result in a wheel with too little tension on the NDS. IF the holes are drilled directionally, it might even force the nipple out at the wrong angle, causing more stress and making failures at that point easier.

dimpsey · July 2018

I'm building up a rock solid training wheel set.
And fancy a classic look with a twist.
Thinking box rim, j-bend spokes and a super reliable hub.
Not worried about tubeless or it being super light or aero.

Spec
Rims: H Plus TB 14 grey
Hubs: Hope RS4 (orange!)
Spokes: DT Swiss Competition (black)

Thoughts please.

ugo.santalucia · July 2018

Dimpsey wrote:

I'm building up a rock solid training wheel set.
And fancy a classic look with a twist.
Thinking box rim, j-bend spokes and a super reliable hub.
Not worried about tubeless or it being super light or aero.

Spec
Rims: H Plus TB 14 grey
Hubs: Hope RS4 (orange!)
Spokes: DT Swiss Competition (black)

Thoughts please.

Yes... but use DT Swiss revolution for the front wheel, plenty robust enough... and yes, orange RS4 rock, these are mine

dimpsey · July 2018

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Dimpsey wrote:

I'm building up a rock solid training wheel set.
And fancy a classic look with a twist.
Thinking box rim, j-bend spokes and a super reliable hub.
Not worried about tubeless or it being super light or aero.

Spec
Rims: H Plus TB 14 grey
Hubs: Hope RS4 (orange!)
Spokes: DT Swiss Competition (black)

Thoughts please.

Yes... but use DT Swiss revolution for the front wheel, plenty robust enough... and yes, orange RS4 rock, these are mine

Thanks for the reply. They look awesome! I've had the R460 before, nice rim but wanted something a bit different.

Slightly OT, having own a Dolan Preffisio for years I've always been tempted by a Dual, what's the clearance like with mudguards?

ugo.santalucia · July 2018

Tight with 25 mm tyres, but OK... 28 won't fit under the guards

It's really a nice comfy frame for long distance...

cycleclinic · July 2018

Given this is not a weight weenie wheelset I think stick with the thicker spoke up front. It quicker to build up.

dimpsey · July 2018

thecycleclinic wrote:

Given this is not a weight weenie wheelset I think stick with the thicker spoke up front. It quicker to build up.

Thanks. Not that keen on the Revolution Spokes I've ridden. I had some Archetypes on Ultegra hubs (32h) which always felt a bit flimsy.
There is a lot of talk of OFFSET Rims, I presuming people are still using 'non-offset' rear rims these days and living to tell the tale ;-) ?

cycleclinic · August 2018

Off set rim help but I have stopped using them with 32h builds. Take the Kinlin 31t in 24h drilling. The offset rim works well with the spoke entering the rim proper. With the 32h rim the ds spokes enter at a steeper angle leaving a bend which has led to a couple of failures. Not sure why as the bracing angle for this build is lower but there it is anyway.

Offset rims help if doing a tubeless build as tubeless tyres drop tension alot but there is nothing wrong with symmetric rims.

nachetetm · August 2018

Dimpsey wrote:

I'm building up a rock solid training wheel set.
And fancy a classic look with a twist.
Thinking box rim, j-bend spokes and a super reliable hub.
Not worried about tubeless or it being super light or aero.

Spec
Rims: H Plus TB 14 grey
Hubs: Hope RS4 (orange!)
Spokes: DT Swiss Competition (black)

Thoughts please.

I almost went that way, orange hubs with silver rims (and spokes). At the end i chose the totally classic look (everything silver) but still sometimes i think that orange would have had a cool look. Post pictures when you finish them.

pgmabley · August 2018

Orange RS4 hubs are great, mine with Kinlin 31mm rims and CX-Ray spokes in black with plain brass nipples

Chaz.Harding · August 2018

More dumb questions! Sorry guys...

So, I'm a big guy (~110kgs) and while I'm not very fit, I am quite powerful. I've broken a bunch of chains, and I'm getting frankly annoyed with my wheels deflecting and rubbing my frame. Or just feeling very very bendy.

I have some DT Swiss wheels, I think 24F 32R, but I can't be sure. I have some Ultegra wheels, and despite being rebuilt a few times (by good wheel builders) they are simply too bendy.

I would like some deep section rims, in 36 spoke configuration. I'm a bit of a tart, but deep section is better for reducing deflection, right?

Since it's going to be a custom build, I've got Chris King hubs in mind (I did say I was a bit of a tart) and the H Plus Son SL42 rims. I need a rim brake flavour - I don't have discs.

Mostly I ride in steep Devon, all year, all weathers.

Weight is not much of a concern - I want tough, strong, rigid wheels. I've had enough of riding bendy wheels now.

Any other contenders for rims? Straight gauge spokes and brass nipples? I'd like tubeless comparability too, but I get that might be shooting the moon...

Cheers all!

shortfall · August 2018

RTW-Chaz wrote:

More dumb questions! Sorry guys...

So, I'm a big guy (~110kgs) and while I'm not very fit, I am quite powerful. I've broken a bunch of chains, and I'm getting frankly annoyed with my wheels deflecting and rubbing my frame. Or just feeling very very bendy.

I have some DT Swiss wheels, I think 24F 32R, but I can't be sure. I have some Ultegra wheels, and despite being rebuilt a few times (by good wheel builders) they are simply too bendy.

I would like some deep section rims, in 36 spoke configuration. I'm a bit of a tart, but deep section is better for reducing deflection, right?

Since it's going to be a custom build, I've got Chris King hubs in mind (I did say I was a bit of a tart) and the H Plus Son SL42 rims. I need a rim brake flavour - I don't have discs.

Mostly I ride in steep Devon, all year, all weathers.

Weight is not much of a concern - I want tough, strong, rigid wheels. I've had enough of riding bendy wheels now.

Any other contenders for rims? Straight gauge spokes and brass nipples? I'd like tubeless comparability too, but I get that might be shooting the moon...

Cheers all!

I am a similar weight to you and can recommend a set of these https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collection ... er-version
No brake rub, fantastic braking, no broken spokes, buttery smooth hubs with big bearings, a fantastic guarantee and sensible money.

Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

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