Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

bobones

Bungalballs wrote:

Hi all. I posted a while ago about a wheel build, but I have changed plans based on what’s on offer. I have a pair of archetype hard-ano rims and Ultegra hubs, 32hole. I’m 78kg, aiming for year round, durable wheels.

Which spokes? I thinking laser front, laser rear nds, d-light ds, 2x front 3x rear. I have found d-lights cheaper than race. I’m not worried about a few grams of weight, but have heard race spokes can make wheels feel ‘dull’, any truth in this? I don’t want to build wheels that aren’t fun to ride.

You could try ACI Alpina DB 2.0/1.7/2.0 - silver are 22p a spoke with brass nipple from Cyclebasket. They're about 6g a spoke. I've built a few sets with them and never had a problem.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Anyone bought or been tempted to buy a pair of custom Hope RS4 Disc wheels through CRC? With the Prime Pro Disc rim option, they come in at cheaper than a pair of the Prime Pro Disc wheelsets.

I'm not bothered by potential clicky noise, I see that as a positive for when I freewheel and/or brake around more vulnerable road users. Just want some stiff and quite light (mainly climbing) disc wheels that will last and not cost a kidney.

heavymental

Ambrosio Zenith Superlight hubs, P20 rims and CX ray spokes. 20 on the front, 24 on the back. What you think?

dinyull

Thinking of some (semi) aero wheels and sadly my budget doesn't stretch to carbon.

A little bit of googling has me looking at H Plus SL42 and Kinlin 380's - but also look like quite old rims.

Is there anything similar knocking about? Budget can probably stretch to around £400 - am I dreaming of finding something?

Have seen the H Plus SL42 for £325 from Spokesman...

timothyw

Yeah, the sl42 and 380 are old rims, and likely to be less aero than current wide alloy rims (eg xr31t) unless run with very small tires (and are pretty heavy to boot).

One of the key advantages of wider rims is that with 23mm and 25mm tires there is only a small amount of ballooning of the tyre beyond the width of the rim itself. The smooth transition from the tyre to rim gives you a larger aero advantage than a cm of rim depth.

You can see from the wind tunnel tests here that on the near head on angles that cyclists usually experience, a humble kinlin XR-31t is more aero than the 45mm deep zipp 303 - https://novemberbicycles.com/blogs/blog ... her-alloys

So I'd say buy those and be happy that they are aero, along with their other good qualities.

mrb123

Dinyull wrote:

Thinking of some (semi) aero wheels and sadly my budget doesn't stretch to carbon.

A little bit of googling has me looking at H Plus SL42 and Kinlin 380's - but also look like quite old rims.

Is there anything similar knocking about? Budget can probably stretch to around £400 - am I dreaming of finding something?

Have seen the H Plus SL42 for £325 from Spokesman...

Both of those options are pretty heavy. Weight is always likely to be the compromise when you try to go aero with aluminium rims.

Hunt sell wheels built with the Kinlin 31mm deep rims marketed as aero.

If you're determined to get some deeper section wheels I'd probably save up a little more and go for carbon, either the usual Chinese suspects or something like this
https://www.probikekit.co.uk/bicycle-wh ... 87611.html

bungalballs

You could also look at the Aforce Al33 rims, though they aren’t cheap.

ugo.santalucia

A rim is a rim... I've never noticed any difference among all the rims I have ridden on.... so that's:
Ambrosio excellence and excursion clincher and Nemesis and Crono tubular, Mavic Open PRO and 819 Disc, Archetype and TB14, Velocity A23, HED Belgium +, DT Swiss 415, 465 and 460.

I would prioritise them being robust, reasonably stiff and easy to fit a tyre to.
Spokes on the other hand can give you a bit more plushness or less, depending on how butted they are.

timothyw

Bungalballs wrote:

You could also look at the Aforce Al33 rims, though they aren’t cheap.

And from the wind tunnel tests above, it seems they actually perform slightly worse than the Kinlins.

Their performance in side on winds is impressive, but it's very rare for cyclists to actually have those- forward motion tends to counteract whatever wind there is at ground level.

mamil314

Would anyone be able to recommend a good wheel builder shop in (SW) London? Ugo has moved out and some can be seen online, but would be interesting to hear positive experiences if anyone has some to share. Failing that, I guess i could just turn to Evans, their mechanics are supposed to be cytech certified. Would prefer somewhere i can visit and collect

roubaixmb

mamil314 wrote:

Would anyone be able to recommend a good wheel builder shop in (SW) London? Ugo has moved out and some can be seen online, but would be interesting to hear positive experiences if anyone has some to share. Failing that, I guess i could just turn to Evans, their mechanics are supposed to be cytech certified. Would prefer somewhere i can visit and collect

The London Cycle Workshop on St Johns Hill have re-built a couple of wheels for me over the last few years. I can't fault them.

There is this guy based in Wandsworth - http://www.noble-wheels.com/ - I haven't used him though so can't offer an opinion. Says "if you’re local, pop in for a coffee and a chat"...

bungalballs

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Spokes on the other hand can give you a bit more plushness or less, depending on how butted they are.

This is interesting Ugo, a few posts back I mentioned about spoke feel of race vs laser or d-light. Would you be able to share some of your wisdom and experience?

cycleclinic

The kinlin xr31t is also robust. Ugo the rider may be going Tts. For audax rides it really does not matter so long as you get round but for racing they help.

I personally have not found one spoke being more comfy than another. I have wheels built with laser or CX rays and race with the same spoke count and there is no difference to me. What does make a difference is the rim width as that affects the tyre air volume. Also carbon rims even the deep one can offer a comfort benefit.

I swapped my carbon wheels from the look as it had to go if to France for repairs ( crash) into the Sarto. This bike with the pacenti forza,/sl23 wheels with CX rays was comfortable enough but the carbon 50mm deep wheels withe same tyres, same pressures, same internal width, same spokes and the same hubs are just more comfortable. Carbon is a laminar material and if done right is good at absorbing road buzz.

Bluntly picking lasers to improve comfort is fuzzy logic. Spoke should be picked to allow the wheel to be stiff enough for the rider, that they don't fail in service. Hub geometry, the rim and spoke count are important too. By using a thinner spoke the idea being that the length changes are bigger you get more of a hysteresis effect but the downside if you have overlooked the affect of wheel stiffness the rider may get a rubies ride down the line.

The effect spokes have on comfort is marginal between laser and race and is not worth worrying about.

ugo.santalucia

Bungalballs wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Spokes on the other hand can give you a bit more plushness or less, depending on how butted they are.

This is interesting Ugo, a few posts back I mentioned about spoke feel of race vs laser or d-light. Would you be able to share some of your wisdom and experience?

I have a number of 32 x 3 cross wheels... my wife's are bog standard plain gauge 2 mm spokes and the feel is completely dead. I have a pair with Sapim Race, which are OK, but still quite numb... I also have a pair with Sapim D-Light and they feel a lot springier.
In a tensioned spoked wheel, you can see the spokes as your "shock absorbers"... of course the effect is nowhere near as dramatic, but it is noticeable nonetheless, especially on the front wheel. The more pronounced the butting, the more evident is the effect.
Of course you need to match your spokes to the rider's mass... a heavy rider should get enough "comfort" out of a 2.0/1.8 butting, a lighter one might need 2.0/1.6 or lower.

If it's of any help, I find the D-light are perfect for my 70 kg... a very good compromise between stiffness, durability and comfort

bungalballs

Thanks both! All food for thought.

drlodge

Butted spokes will be thinner in the middle section, so will stretch more for a given amount of force, and so feel more springy compared to non-butted spokes i.e. they will give a bit more on each revolution as they are loaded-unloaded and more easily absorb shocks. I don't believe spokes will have a "hysteresis effect", its simply elastic.

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

Butted spokes will be thinner in the middle section, so will stretch more for a given amount of force, and so feel more springy compared to non-butted spokes i.e. they will give a bit more on each revolution as they are loaded-unloaded and more easily absorb shocks. I don't believe spokes will have a "hysteresis effect", its simply elastic.

There is always an hysteresis, it might not be a big one, but energy is always wasted to some extent. A perfectly elastic process is textbook stuff.

drlodge

May be we have different understanding of what hysteresis is. In my view its about whether the spoke returns to a constantly neutral position irrespective whether it is stretched or contradicted. I can't fathom how a spoke would exhibit a different kind of hysteresis...its an elastic bit of steel wire.

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

May be we have different understanding of what hysteresis is. In my view its about whether the spoke returns to a constantly neutral position irrespective whether it is stretched or contradicted. I can't fathom how a spoke would exhibit a different kind of hysteresis...its an elastic bit of steel wire.

Hysteresis highlights a delay in the process, just in the same way as a shock absorber springs back to its original position, but with a delay... that delay is responsible for the "dampening" action.

cycleclinic

A thionner spoke will in principle absorb more energy in stretching so vibrations may be taken up better by thinner spokes but the effect is marginal at best

The dead feeling ugo compents on is not to do with comfort though. first what rims? I think it is more to with weight and general feeling of unrepsonsiveness.

There are overlapping sensations here I am sure.

bungalballs

I've gone with Archetypes, but I was more just interested to hear your experiences for general understanding and my own interest. Personally, I'd prefer to spend a little more on a 'better' spoke if it makes the wheels more lively, provided it doesn't adversely affect reliability too much, but wasn't really sure if it actually makes any difference. It seems there are mixed opinions!

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

A thionner spoke will in principle absorb more energy in stretching so vibrations may be taken up better by thinner spokes but the effect is marginal at best

The dead feeling ugo compents on is not to do with comfort though. first what rims? I think it is more to with weight and general feeling of unrepsonsiveness.

There are overlapping sensations here I am sure.

Rim is almost irrelevant... same rims with different spokes give a completely different feel.

Same spokes with different rim is hard to notice.

Rims are much of a muchness... they all weigh between 400 and 500 grams, these days they all have an internal width between 17 and 20 mm and they obviously all have the same size.

The first thing people comment on coming from stock non butted wheels (being that cheap hand builts or Aksium or Ksyrium or bottom of the range Khamsin) is how "smooth" their new wheels feel. If they had a pair of Neutron or Dura Ace CL24 or similar, they wont feel any difference... because the latter have butted (still bladed) spokes

Last year I rebuilt a set of disc brake wheels for a colleague. The rims were basic Alex D 23, as supplied with the old Croix de Fer. Fitted new spokes, as the old ones kept snapping after many miles, from plain gauge I switched to butted 20/1.7/2.0... never told him anything about the spokes being any different... his first comment was that the wheels felt very different, much more compliant... so there you go... 8)

timothyw

Ugo I thought you were a scientist? That sort of anecdote is pretty meaningless.

Isn't the argument that a properly tensioned wheel will have very little stretching of the spokes, because spokes expanding and contracting is what causes metal fatigue and spoke failure- at proper tension the spokes are constantly under load so they don't stretch much (if at all).

Given that, I can't see how they can in any noticeable way provide a more compliant ride on the basis of a couple of fractions of a mm difference in diameter.

Still, a controlled double blind test would be interesting to see the results of.

ugo.santalucia

TimothyW wrote:

Ugo I thought you were a scientist? That sort of anecdote is pretty meaningless.

Isn't the argument that a properly tensioned wheel will have very little stretching of the spokes, because spokes expanding and contracting is what causes metal fatigue and spoke failure- at proper tension the spokes are constantly under load so they don't stretch much (if at all).

Given that, I can't see how they can in any noticeable way provide a more compliant ride on the basis of a couple of fractions of a mm difference in diameter.

Still, a controlled double blind test would be interesting to see the results of.

I have no idea of the magnitude of the deflection... might be bigger than you think... I also have no idea ho w much of it is stretching and how much is deflection... there are no data around that I am aware. Anecdotes are all we have. At least they are not as bad as the bad science of wind tunnels...

The difference is noticeable, but that can be because we are very tuned to notice any difference. I have no idea what kind of deflection we are capable of noticing... I wouldn't be surprised if it was as little as one millimeter. For me, butted spokes and very butted spokes especially are a blessing and definitively make a lot of difference on very long days to my hands especially.

There are of course other means of making bikes comfortable for the upper part of the body... old fashion forks with a pronounced rake are plush, compared to modern straight blade ones.

paulbnix

I have built a few road wheels that have been fine - both rim and disc brake.

I am looking at rebuilding my son's mtb rear wheel with a hub that has some decent sealing.
The wheel is 32h and spokes are 2mm plain gauge.
Obviously if the new hub is the same dimensions I will reuse the spokes as the bike hasn't done many miles.

However if I need to buy new spokes should I replace like for like or would it be better to get 2/1.8/2 butted spokes?

bobones

TimothyW wrote:

Ugo I thought you were a scientist? That sort of anecdote is pretty meaningless.

Isn't the argument that a properly tensioned wheel will have very little stretching of the spokes, because spokes expanding and contracting is what causes metal fatigue and spoke failure- at proper tension the spokes are constantly under load so they don't stretch much (if at all).

Given that, I can't see how they can in any noticeable way provide a more compliant ride on the basis of a couple of fractions of a mm difference in diameter.

Still, a controlled double blind test would be interesting to see the results of.

Yeah, smells like BS to me too. Surely any compliance from spokes will be masked by much greater deflection of the tyres?

ugo.santalucia

bobones wrote:

Yeah, smells like BS to me too.

And this comes from your deep knowledge of what? What exactly is your experience to come to the conclusion that I talk BS?

What a fuxxng bag of shhte...

darkhairedlord

TimothyW wrote:

Ugo I thought you were a scientist? That sort of anecdote is pretty meaningless.

Isn't the argument that a properly tensioned wheel will have very little stretching of the spokes, because spokes expanding and contracting is what causes metal fatigue and spoke failure- at proper tension the spokes are constantly under load so they don't stretch much (if at all).

Given that, I can't see how they can in any noticeable way provide a more compliant ride on the basis of a couple of fractions of a mm difference in diameter.

Still, a controlled double blind test would be interesting to see the results of.

No you're wrong.

cycleclinic

Rim internal width makes a difference to tyre volume so rims have an impact on comfort. If they have the same internal width they feel similar. Where the rim can make another difference is with the rim material. Some carbon rims absorb road buzz better than alloy rims but not all. I am comparing carbon and alloy rims of the same internal width, in the same bike with the same tyres.

In the many sets of wheels I have I can't find one where thinner spokes have made any noticeable impact in ride comfort.

Spokes in a fully tensioned wheel have stretched by 0.5mm Ds rear. If spokes dampen road buzz by detection they would fail quickly. The radial stiffness of s wheel is normally 2500 to 4000n/mm. The tyre however absorbs mist if any impact reducing significantly the loading on the spokes. So under normal conditions they barely suffer any length change at all.

cycleclinic

paulbn. Butted spokes tend to give a more reliable wheel. Plain guage should be used if you just want a cheap build or you need a stiffer wheel but then why not use single butted spokes instead.