Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

pgmabley

Sorted the wheel out last night, spent a couple of hours removing the nipples out of the rim, re-installing the spokes, tensioning the wheel and sorting the tubeless side of things out.

All good so far, will ride the wheels and see how it goes with the increased tension.

Mystic Wind

Hi all, I'm new to the forum so go gently with me!

I'm looking at upgrading the wheels on my 2016 Genesis Datum 10. It's an 'adventure bike' but I use it pretty much on tarmac only.

Current wheel set is Fulcrum Racing DB, they seem fine although I don't have much to compare them against. I just fancy treating myself!

At the moment I'm just focusing on hub choice. Current wheels are 6-bolt, but I'm thinking of moving to CL as CL hubs seem to be generally more aimed at road use, and 6-bolt hubs are heavier and probably over-engineered for road-only usage.

I'll need to allocate ~£60 for a pair of CL discs out of my overall budget of ~£500 if moving to CL. By my reckoning, going for CL over 6-bolt should knock about 100g off the final build thanks to lighter hubs and discs. Not a huge amount, but not a bad return on a £/g basis.

On the flip side, 6-bolt hubs seem to have larger flanges which I guess may give a stiffer build, and perhaps I'm focusing too much on weight anyway - especially as my 11-32 Tiagra cassette wouldn't be the choice of most weight weenies! Maybe I'm better off saving the £60 or spending it elsewhere?

Anyway, assuming I go the CL route, I have a shortlist of 3 hubs:
Bitex 106F/R
DT Swiss 350 CL
Hope RS4-CL

The Bitex hubs seem a popular choice with wheel builders, but are the Hope or DT Swiss hubs worth the extra money? Will I notice a difference?

Do the 350s 'roll' as nicely as the 240s (which my brother-in-law swears by)?

As far as the Hopes are concerned, should I be concerned that they only have 2 pawls - that seems very low?

Any advice gratefully received!

ugo.santalucia

Hope are always worth the extra money... what do you mean 2 pawls? They have 4, hence the name RS4.

DT Swiss are great too, but if you like to do your own fettling, then you need to invest 60 quid in their unique tool to remove the ratchet that sits in front of the DS bearing

Mystic Wind

Hi Ugo, thanks for the reply.

Hope's own website says the RS4-CL have a 2 pawl ratchet. I read somewhere that it was a move to reduce drag compared with the 4-pawl Pro4. Perhaps I'm misinformed?

I'm not a 'fettler' and I understand that the DT hubs are pretty low maintenance, which suits me!

ugo.santalucia

Mystic Wind wrote:

Hi Ugo, thanks for the reply.

Hope's own website says the RS4-CL have a 2 pawl ratchet. I read somewhere that it was a move to reduce drag compared with the 4-pawl Pro4. Perhaps I'm misinformed?

I'm not a 'fettler' and I understand that the DT hubs are pretty low maintenance, which suits me!

Ah... mmmhhh... oh well, you still have an 8 degree engagement angle, which is not bad... the pawls are oversized, compared to the fiddly ones of most competitors...

You would think DT swiss is low maintenance, but I had to replace a bearing on a front 350 disc very early on... in fairness it was super easy, but the rear is less so

drlodge

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Hope are always worth the extra money...

Except for the Campag freehubs which have a compromised design :shock:

drlodge

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Mystic Wind wrote:

Ah... mmmhhh... oh well, you still have an 8 degree engagement angle, which is not bad... the pawls are oversized, compared to the fiddly ones of most competitors...

I agree the pawls do seem to be fairly beefy. My Mono RS hub has 40 ratchets so that's 9 degrees.

cycleclinic

I like the bitex hubs for Centrelock. Simple reliable and easy to service. Also all axle standards are supported. That's is why wheel builders like them

Mystic Wind

Thanks Malcolm, I'll go with Bitex.

Next stop - Rims.

Looking for something that ticks most, if not all of these boxes:
* Wide - (about 20mm internal) will be running anything between 28mm and 35mm tyres. Currently running 33mm Challenge Strada Bianca Plus.
* Matt finish.
* Stiff/strong enough for a 90kg rider.
* Will take standard clinchers & tubes without too many issues (may go tubeless in the future).
* Not too heavy - need as much help up hills as I can get!
* Welded.
* Asymmetric.

Currently looking at DT Swiss RR 421DB and Pacenti Forza Disc, both of which seem to tick all of the above.

Others under consideration are the Stans Grail and the in-house rims at JRA & DCR (I suspect they're the same. Not sure who makes them - welded construction suggests it may not be Kinlin).

Any preferences/recommendations from the above (or others) gratefully received.

ugo.santalucia

About Bitex... in 2012 I was offered directly by Bitex to buy 40 sets for the equivalent of £ 25 a set... Strada was selling them (branded as Strada) for 120 GBP at the time...
I think this is the real reason wheel builders like them... LOL :-)

cycleclinic

They cost alot more than that ugo. I got a quote once and went with miche instead due to bites prices. Not expensive but not cheap either so given I buy a range of parts of miche anyway and the lead times can be shorter and the volumes a bit smaller it does not make sense to order of bitex. The b106f/106r is still a good hub and there two importers now.

timothyw

I notice that the Mavic Open Pro UST rim is now on CRC for £43 - there was a lot of noise about this a while back (admittedly much about the still nonexistent exalith version).

Anyone actually built with/running them?

How do they compare to the usual Kinlin/DT suspects?

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

They cost alot more than that ugo.

Not if you buy them direct from Bitex... maybe now they no longer deal with individual customers, but at the time that was the way

bungalballs

I've successfully built a few wheels now, but all have been high(er) spoke counts (32h) and 3x patterns.

I'd like to have a go at building some replacement road wheels; all round/year round weekend and club riding, though I have another dedicated winter bike for when its horrible. Tubeless preferred, rim brake. I'd like to invest in hubs I can build over and over. I'm thinking about hope RS4 hubs, mavic open pro UST, and Sapim D-Light spokes all round. I've built before with these spokes and not had problems with excessive 'wind-up'.

My question is on spoke count, type, and lacing pattern. I'm thinking 24/28, in 2x front, 3x rear. Is 28h too few spokes for 3x? I'm avoiding radial on front to maximise hub life (this might be nonsense?), but am wondering about 1x front (mainly because I like the look), 2x rear. Would that work, or affect durability too much?

Is it worth considering lazers on the front; are they ok to build with for an amateur builder?

ugo.santalucia

Bungalballs wrote:

I've successfully built a few wheels now, but all have been high(er) spoke counts (32h) and 3x patterns.

I'd like to have a go at building some replacement road wheels; all round/year round weekend and club riding, though I have another dedicated winter bike for when its horrible. Tubeless preferred, rim brake. I'd like to invest in hubs I can build over and over. I'm thinking about hope RS4 hubs, mavic open pro UST, and Sapim D-Light spokes all round. I've built before with these spokes and not had problems with excessive 'wind-up'.

My question is on spoke count, type, and lacing pattern. I'm thinking 24/28, in 2x front, 3x rear. Is 28h too few spokes for 3x? I'm avoiding radial on front to maximise hub life (this might be nonsense?), but am wondering about 1x front (mainly because I like the look), 2x rear. Would that work, or affect durability too much?

Is it worth considering lazers on the front; are they ok to build with for an amateur builder?

I have RS4 in 24 front and 32 rear... 28 rear is fine if you are not too heavy... I would draw a line at 85 kg, especially if you want to use D-light. Bear in mind 4 of those spokes are only 25 grams extra... For the front you can indeed use Laser spokes, cheaper, lighter and perfectly fine for a non dished front wheel. Mine are 2x front and 3x rear, if you go for 28 you can do 2x at the rear too. Hope flanges are a bit big for a 3x on a 28 in my opinion.

The trick with Laser spokes is tensioning them using this technique: put 3/4 of a turn in tension and back off 1/4 to make it into 1/2 a turn. This way you avoid most of the wind up... destress frequently... never had any issue

timothyw

Bungalballs wrote:

Is 28h too few spokes for 3x?

No. Or more accurately, maybe.

Small flange hubs won't be able to do 28 hole 3 cross - run the numbers through a calculator which gives you 'Spoke head clearance' such as Freespoke - http://www.kstoerz.com/freespoke/fullcalc

Most rears will be fine - I recently built a set of Kinlin XR31t rims on Miche hubs for a friend, 24 spoke front and 28 spoke rear, found that I couldn't get the spoke length required for a 2x rear in the timescale required so built it 3x instead, it was fine (and presumably stronger to boot).

bungalballs

Ok thanks. I'm 78kg so sounds like 28 rear should be fine, though 32h 3x might be better. I suspect I'd have a little more confidence in a 32h so might try to go with that, and I'll try lasers front, d-light rear.

Good tip on lasers Ugo, thanks for that.

svetty

28h 2x rear will be fine. No need to introduce potential issues with spoke head crossings by going 28h x3. There is no strength benefit of x3 over x2 if the wheel is soundly built and you aren't a Clyde

jimboraf

really useful thread.

heavymental

Anyone have a view on the Ambrosio P20? I can't find a review or even the rim listed on the Ambrosio website?

ugo.santalucia

Heavymental wrote:

Anyone have a view on the Ambrosio P20? I can't find a review or even the rim listed on the Ambrosio website?

Ambrosio has become a mystery... they don't even seem to have an Italian website anymore... the brand name has been bought and I have no idea if the company actually still exists as we knew it

heavymental

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Heavymental wrote:

Anyone have a view on the Ambrosio P20? I can't find a review or even the rim listed on the Ambrosio website?

Ambrosio has become a mystery... they don't even seem to have an Italian website anymore... the brand name has been bought and I have no idea if the company actually still exists as we knew it

Apparently they are made under license by a British company called RSI and I’ve found the P20 listed there. Can’t find any reviews anywhere though.

cycleclinic

The ambrosio factory I still think produces rims but mostly wheels. Ambroiso has new owners though and in the U.K the trade mark is owned by RSI cycles. I am not sure how long the company will be running for. Min order for distibutors per drilling/model is now 1000 rims.

http://ambrosiowheels.com/en/

the P20 rim is taiwanese made and is a good rim. tubeless tyres are a good fit but I suspect tubed tyres to be a tighish fit depending on the tyre. Personally I would use them tubeless but that a given for me. The rim is nice a round and well made though. I struggle to find fault with it.

28 spoke rear can be done 3x with 45mm flanges but the spokes are almost crossing the heads. 2x works and. D lights will be fine with the OP UST rims in 28H drilling but heavier riders may benefit from a thicker spoke. It depends on the rider.

cycleclinic

TimothyW I am going to have to talk to mavic about that price as my trade+VAT is not far off that. Its a good rim but if retailers cant make money on it its useless.

Mavic say dont hold your breath on the exalith rim. I dont think it will ever appear.

heavymental

Just realised the RSI topic was covered earlier in the thread so sorry for not reading back through.

I’m looking for a nice light wheelset and am fairly lightweight myself (10st) doing leisurely rides on the ups and downs of West Wales. Do you think the P20 would be a decent choice against the many other options available?

sloppyschleckonds

thecycleclinic wrote:

Mavic say dont hold your breath on the exalith rim. I dont think it will ever appear.

cycleclinic

In silver the P20 is a great choice and is stiff enough for low spoke counts.
In black it makes less sense as the kinlins exist and tyre fitting is easier on these. The weight of the P20 is the same as the Kinlin XR31T you see.

pgmabley

I'm very pleased with my Kinlin XR31T rims, will be using them again. Not the most flash but suit me perfectly.

mrb123

http://www.cyclingweekly.com/reviews/wh ... her-wheels

Nice review for Malcolm's carbon offerings.

cycleclinic

steady on I never said anything warranty 0.05mm out of true!