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Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

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  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Being not tubeless compatible means easy tyre changes , really. I have found a number of non tubeless clincher rims and non tubeless tyres that are tight. The opposite is true. To say all tubeless compatible rims are tight with all tyres is not true.

    DT Swiss RR440 is tubeless compatible, H plus archetype is too (though not offically) and there are more... Why make your life hard. No they wont be available aftermarket its a factory wheelset they want to sell wheels not rims.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • lostboysaintlostboysaint Posts: 4,369
    What the Pro wheelman says!!

    I've seen too many rims for both road and mtb wheels that are tubeless compatible and yet you can thumb a tyre on with no issue (including my current A23 road rims and H Plus Son Todestrieb 29er rims) and other "non-tubeless rims" that are a complete censored to get tyres on regardless of what levers you use. I've also got rims that "are not tubeless compatible" (Mavic EN521 26" mtb) that are run tubeless!

    Don't believe the PR bull, ask around and establish the facts.
    Trail fun - Transition Bandit
    Road - Wilier Izoard Centaur/Cube Agree C62 Disc
    Allround - Cotic Solaris
  • Re Strada - I understand people are looking for clarity and there's probably a bit of intrigue about this. I may not have grasped the full extent of the situation but it's his business and it succeeds or fails based on what decisions he makes so if he decides to drop a product (even if that decision seems unreasonable or unfounded to onlookers) that's his lookout isn't it?
  • apreadingapreading Posts: 4,533
    Re Strada - I understand people are looking for clarity and there's probably a bit of intrigue about this. I may not have grasped the full extent of the situation but it's his business and it succeeds or fails based on what decisions he makes so if he decides to drop a product (even if that decision seems unreasonable or unfounded to onlookers) that's his lookout isn't it?

    Nobody is arguing with that, just trying to work out if is an inherent problem that means we should also stop buying Archetypes from elsewhere.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,087
    apreading wrote:
    Re Strada - I understand people are looking for clarity and there's probably a bit of intrigue about this. I may not have grasped the full extent of the situation but it's his business and it succeeds or fails based on what decisions he makes so if he decides to drop a product (even if that decision seems unreasonable or unfounded to onlookers) that's his lookout isn't it?

    Nobody is arguing with that, just trying to work out if is an inherent problem that means we should also stop buying Archetypes from elsewhere.

    It is a fact of life that at some point someone comes out saying that "open PRO" (or any other rims) is not as good as it used to be.
    If you think about it, it's the same for everything... Stella is nowhere near as good as it used to be, Cheddar cheese is not as good as it used to be and of course you might have fond memories of that trip to Tuscany you made 20 years ago... and yes, Chianti is nowhere near as good as it used to be...

    You will of course also hear folks saying that Campagnolo is not as good as it used to be (me being one) and of course the Defender is not as good as it used to be... as a matter of fact even the AK 47 of Russian production and atomic weapons in general are not as good as they used to be...

    Welcome to a deteriorating world... :lol::wink:
  • lostboysaintlostboysaint Posts: 4,369

    Welcome to a deteriorating world... :lol::wink:

    I think you mean a world which is geared to generating value for shareholders, not consumers.
    Trail fun - Transition Bandit
    Road - Wilier Izoard Centaur/Cube Agree C62 Disc
    Allround - Cotic Solaris
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,087

    Welcome to a deteriorating world... :lol::wink:

    I think you mean a world which is geared to generating value for shareholders, not consumers.

    It was tongue in cheek, I actually think most things are better than they used to be... except lager on the tap that is... :wink:
  • stevie63stevie63 Posts: 481

    It is a fact of life that at some point someone comes out saying that "open PRO" (or any other rims) is not as good as it used to be.
    If you think about it, it's the same for everything... Stella is nowhere near as good as it used to be, Cheddar cheese is not as good as it used to be and of course you might have fond memories of that trip to Tuscany you made 20 years ago... and yes, Chianti is nowhere near as good as it used to be...

    You will of course also hear folks saying that Campagnolo is not as good as it used to be (me being one) and of course the Defender is not as good as it used to be... as a matter of fact even the AK 47 of Russian production and atomic weapons in general are not as good as they used to be...

    Welcome to a deteriorating world... :lol::wink:


    And of course Wagon Wheels are much small than they used to be.
  • apreadingapreading Posts: 4,533
    Dont talk to me about Wagon Wheels - they dont even make my favourite any more - the Rowntree Nutty bar...!
  • TheHoundTheHound Posts: 284
    Do you think I could find someone to hand build me a Wagon Wheel?
    Bianchi Intenso Athena
    Handbuilt Wheels by dcrwheels.co.uk
    Fizik Cyrano R3 Handlebars
    Selle Italia SLR Kit Carbonio Flow saddle
    Deda Superleggero seatpost
  • Diamant49Diamant49 Posts: 101
    TheHound wrote:
    Do you think I could find someone to hand build me a Wagon Wheel?

    It can be done :D

    http://allrecipes.co.uk/recipe/24435/wagon-wheels.aspx
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    edited April 2015
    On the world deteriorating, that's entropy for you and rose tinted specticles.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • cattytowncattytown Posts: 647
    I was pretty sure Drew at Spin builds his wheels - the hubs are available on the site and they come in options for things like hub colours. He also describes them as hand built.

    Paul.
    Giant Defy 2
    Large bloke getting smaller :-)
  • FatTedFatTed Posts: 1,214
    Which wheels and hubs would people recommend for road disc bikes? Would Hope 11 speed compatible hubs with Pacenti SL25 rims be OK? What about type of spokes and count, do you need more less the same as for rim braking? Would be pairing with an Enigma Ti frame.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,087
    FatTed wrote:
    Which wheels and hubs would people recommend for road disc bikes? Would Hope 11 speed compatible hubs with Pacenti SL25 rims be OK? What about type of spokes and count, do you need more less the same as for rim braking? Would be pairing with an Enigma Ti frame.

    Depends how fat is fat ted... 28 holes will be fine fine most, but if you are over 90 Kg, go for 32 with no hesitations.
    Similarly, Sapim D-Light will be OK for most, but if you are heavy Sapim Race will be a better choice.

    For disc wheels built on conventionally drilled holes, 24 H is the very minimum to build a crossed pattern wheel
  • arlowoodarlowood Posts: 2,448
    FatTed wrote:
    Which wheels and hubs would people recommend for road disc bikes? Would Hope 11 speed compatible hubs with Pacenti SL25 rims be OK? What about type of spokes and count, do you need more less the same as for rim braking? Would be pairing with an Enigma Ti frame.


    Are you planning to build them yourself? If not you could do worse than check out the offering at Moonglu

    http://www.moonglu.com/products/handbui ... isc-wheels

    The above are 28H but if you contact them directly I'm sure they will be able to quote you for a 32H build. The rims and hubs are both available in 32H drillings.

    I recently took delivery of a set based on Archetype/ Hope Pro2 Evo and I can't fault them. As above they were originally offering these at 28H but as I'm pushing 90kg, I emailed Neil (Dunkley) and he offered to build me the 32H versions at the same price.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    edited April 2015
    Pacenti rims on shimano cx 75 hubs would be my choice or miche syntium hubs. Dt swiss hubs and novatec are good too. The only problem with hope disc brake hubs is the rear hubs centre of flange to centre of flange distance is shorter than all of those hubs mentioned the same goes for there front hubs compared to those mentioned. In order of bracing angles from best (top) to worsT (bottom) i rank the hubs available as
    shimano cx75/miche syntium
    novatec d711 d712 or d771/ d772
    dt swiss 350 hubs
    hope hubs

    this is is the only thing wrong with hope hubs. You wont feel it when riding though. Its a technical point. Folk like them because the bearings are reliable which they are but that is only one part of a hub being good.

    The higher the bracing angle the stiffer the wheel and longer those 28 spokes will last. 28 spoke builds will be fine but would use sapim race or similar. Why disc brake rims do not wear out so maximising stifffnes, lateral, torsiknal and radial is quite useful for longevity. It does depend on how many miles you do per year. Given a 28 spoke disc brake wheelset with the pacenti or velocity aileron rims will support a rider of almost weight for good time it does come down to how much you will ride them per year. a rider doing 10,000 miles per year would benefit from a 32 spoke build and and perhaps triple butted spokes if you 90kg or more. This my gut feeling on this. If the rider does 4000 miles per year then it is more academic as it will take so long to fatigue the spokes you will have proably changed the bike by then.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • FatTedFatTed Posts: 1,214
    Thanks guys very helpful, I'm 76 Kg.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,087
    miche syntium.

    Never heard of them, post a photo... :roll:
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    P1010261_zps50zchc51.jpg

    Dimensions
    Front Flange PCD L/R 59mm
    DS centre flange to centre hub 35.8mm
    NDS centre flange to centre hub 21.3mm
    Rear hub
    Front Flange PCD L/R 59mm
    DS centre flange to centre hub 18.8mm
    NDS centre flange to centre hub 35mm

    Weight 450g they use a 17mm axle SKF bearings and have the usual bearing preload adjuster. Not cheap unfortunatley.

    That list of hubs ranked in order of bracing angle I have reorderd see above.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,087

    Weight 450g they use a 17mm axle SKF bearings and have the usual bearing preload adjuster. Not cheap unfortunatley.

    How much?
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    c.£200 unfortunately. I think was does it these are the disc brake equivalent of there SWR hubs and those are similarly expensive. I got hold of pair of the SWR hubs for triplet lacing to try.

    The one advantage over the DT Swiss 350 hubs they have is the DS rear bearing is easy to remove. I find getting that screw in ring out a real pig, I hurt my shoulder that last time trying to undo one.

    the U.K Kinlin distributor confirmed to me today the new tubeless 31mm and 22mm deep wide rims are arriving tomorrow. I have no idea on pricing yet I dont think they have worked it out yet. So there is now an alternative to the Pacenti SL23 rim. Still have not got them to know what they are like.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,087
    c.£200 unfortunately. I think was does it these are the disc brake equivalent of there SWR hubs and those are similarly expensive.

    In Line with Hope and Novatec 541/542... the latter are my favourite, having now had them for 18 months... but 9-10 speed compatible only
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    and the 11 speed compatibility is the one reason why I bought it to see them in the flesh and measure them. I suspect like all miche hubs these will be quite reliable. If they are as relaible as a Hope hub but with better bracing angles then it is a win win.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ck101ck101 Posts: 264
    I'm sure the answer is already in this thread but here goes anyway;

    I'm 180lbs, wheels will be used for fast club spins. No touring or commuting. I have the option on A23's laced to DT Swiss 350's, DT Competition Spokes, Brass Nipples, 24 front laced radially, 28 rear.

    Will this combo be ok at my weight?
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    The above would work fine but you would be better of with the archetype rim, it is a stiffer rim and better made. The wheel builder will not have to remove all the drilling swarf from an archetype rim. He/she will with the A23 and that is really annoying. There are hubs with better bracing angles like Hope for example. You could use much cheaper Miche Primato for a 35g penelty without sacrificing much. you could save a bit of weight by going with thinner spokes on the front but hey I'm not building them so go with what your wheel builder is happy doing, they are the one backing it up after all.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • djaeggidjaeggi Posts: 107
    The higher the bracing angle the stiffer the wheel and longer those 28 spokes will last.

    @thecycleclinic

    You've said this a couple of times now, and it's been troubling me (such is the way my mind works!) and I've only just now worked out why... surely this is the other way round?! In that, you are saying that the greater the bracing angle, the greater the lateral stiffness and the greater the fatigue life of the spokes (not that this should matter if the wheel is well spec'ed/built, but anyway!). But, surely, the source of the cyclic fatigue is the radial loads, not the lateral loads, by at least a factor of 2 in loading and many more times the number of cycles? So a narrower flange hub (I'm thinking directly DT hubs here, which i'm looking to buy) improves the fatigue situation, because the NDS spokes then contribute more towards radial stiffness and thus reduce the cyclic stresses on the (more critically loaded) DS spokes. Of course, you need to make sure you have enough lateral stiffness/strength to avoid the NDS spokes going slack, but this is a given for any build. Would appreciate your thoughts!
  • DKayDKay Posts: 1,652
    I would think that the differences between the longitudinal stiffness of using one hub over another would negligible, as you're only talking about a difference of a couple of mm as a ratio of the overall diameter of the wheel which is 622mm or whatever the ERD of the rim is. i.e. a very large ratio of say 5 : 622

    However, in the context of the flange distance of a rear hub, which is around 55mm, a few mm extra or less makes much more of a difference in terms of bracing angle, as the ratio is much smaller; say, 5 : 55. Also, lateral stiffness is a much more noticeable property of a spoked wheel when put under power.

    This is how I understand it anyway.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    A bit of physics is needed. The rim, particularly modern wide one are much stiffer than the spoke system.
    This study goes into it and the general discussion puts in words instead of maths http://opus.bath.ac.uk/1418/1/Vogwell_P

    The wheel stiffness is goin to determined by the eq 38 in that paper. Anyway the spoke are much stiffer than the rim. So by following the maths you end up with the rim stiffness dominating and spoke stiffness being irrelavent. Sorry this morning I managed to write the reverse hense the edit.

    So given radial stiffness of any wheel even wheels built back in the 80's with shallow narrow rims was high in the order of 3000-4000N/mm modern wheels built with much stiffer rims do not need help from an inboard NDS flange like on the DT Swiss hubs to increase radial stiffness. Also it does not actually help, physics is against you as the rim is so much stiffer and controls radial stiffness. Otherwise how would those very low spoke count wheels from mavic and shimano hold together? Radial Rim stiffness is how. So that leaves lateral stiffness if radial stiffness is high enough. A stiff rim helps, good NDS bracing angle is very important as the DS bracing angle on 11 speed hubs is rubbish and then spoke gauge and spoke count helps too. If the rim stiffness is taken out the lateral wheel stiffness provided by the spokes and bracing angle is the product of (product means thing multiplied together) number of spokes, spoke stiffness (modulus), spoke diameter and the squares of the cosine of the bracing angles (divided by the respective spoke length). Then divide this by the internal rim radius and add the rim stiffness and you have lateral wheel stiffness. The rim and the bracing angles are a really big factor here.

    So doing what DT Swiss do to the NDS flange position does not increase radial rim stiffness due to the way the rim spoke system works. DT Swiss do it because many wheel builders and some customer obbess about NDS spoke tension and assume by increasing this inproves spoke life. It does not however by itself. The spoke life experienced come from a balance of factors. A wheel that has good spoke life has good lateral stiffness too and that means a larger rather than smaller NDS bracing angle is needed for the rear wheel as the DS angle is so rubbish now. Of course if the rim stiffness, spoke count and spoke guage are high enough it can make up for the poor geometry of the DT Swiss hub which is what I said in the first reply. It will work but you can do better.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,087
    A bit of physics is needed. The rim, particularly modern wide one are much stiffer than the spoke system.
    This study goes into it and the general discussion puts in words instead of maths http://opus.bath.ac.uk/1418/1/Vogwell_P

    The wheel stiffness is goin to determined by the eq 38 in that paper. Anyway the spoke are much stiffer than the rim. So by following the maths you end up with the rim stiffness dominating and spoke stiffness being irrelavent. Sorry this morning I managed to write the reverse hense the edit.

    So given radial stiffness of any wheel even wheels built back in the 80's with shallow narrow rims was high in the order of 3000-4000N/mm modern wheels built with much stiffer rims do not need help from an inboard NDS flange like on the DT Swiss hubs to increase radial stiffness. Also it does not actually help, physics is against you as the rim is so much stiffer and controls radial stiffness. Otherwise how would those very low spoke count wheels from mavic and shimano hold together? Radial Rim stiffness is how. So that leaves lateral stiffness if radial stiffness is high enough. A stiff rim helps, good NDS bracing angle is very important as the DS bracing angle on 11 speed hubs is rubbish and then spoke gauge and spoke count helps too. If the rim stiffness is taken out the lateral wheel stiffness provided by the spokes and bracing angle is the product of (product means thing multiplied together) number of spokes, spoke stiffness (modulus), spoke diameter and the squares of the cosine of the bracing angles (divided by the respective spoke length). Then divide this by the internal rim radius and add the rim stiffness and you have lateral wheel stiffness. The rim and the bracing angles are a really big factor here.

    So doing what DT Swiss do to the NDS flange position does not increase radial rim stiffness due to the way the rim spoke system works. DT Swiss do it because many wheel builders and some customer obbess about NDS spoke tension and assume by increasing this inproves spoke life. It does not however by itself. The spoke life experienced come from a balance of factors. A wheel that has good spoke life has good lateral stiffness too and that means a larger rather than smaller NDS bracing angle is needed for the rear wheel as the DS angle is so rubbish now. Of course if the rim stiffness, spoke count and spoke guage are high enough it can make up for the poor geometry of the DT Swiss hub which is what I said in the first reply. It will work but you can do better.

    Aren't you a bit overthinking it?
    Stiffness in disc wheels does not appear to be an issue, obviously not in 26 inchers, but also in 29ers...! I have never had anybody complaining about lack of stiffness. If you want to use 24 Laser spokes on the back wheel, maybe that could be something to bear in mind, but otherwise all hubs on the market fit the bill rather well. Wheels don't flex, spokes don't break... there is no reason to solve problems that do not exist.

    As for the Miche hubs, is it something you are planning to import in numbers or is it a one off? They are not featured in any Miche catalogue or release, so I am not sure about them... beside the axle/bearings, is the freehub the same body and pawls as the road one?
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