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Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

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  • djaeggidjaeggi Posts: 107
    Wide rims and record hubs work well together. you still want the extra tyre witdth and lateral grip that comes from a wide rim.

    You get pretty much the same effect running 25mm tyres.
    Record hubs built onto archtype rims is a very stiff and robust wheelset. The excellight rims are 450g not 430g. Ambrosio lie about the weight. The dt swiss rr440 rim is 450g and slightly wider and the rear rim is offered in a offset drilling which increase nds rear spoke life.

    Given the excelight/record build even with sapim race spokes will be less stiff than the rr440/ record build and the archetype/record build (in that order) rear spoke life on the ambrosio build should be shorter. The stiffer the wheel the less flex there is so during each rotation of the wheel the spokes fatigue less. The off set drilling of the rr440 rim offset that fact it is not as stiff as the archetype rim so go with either rim not the excelight.

    Yes, but both stiffness and fatigue life only benefit you so far.

    Your spokes will not fatigue before the rim wears out on either build (by some margin!) - extra fatigue life is of no benefit.

    Stiffness is similarly not going to be an issue - once you avoid brake rub (and there's no way at 75kg that you're going to run into stiffness problems with either build), there's no real benefit to excessively stiff wheels.

    The DT RR440 looks great, the DT rims I've built have all been excellent and super easy to build (very round and even tensioned). But the same applies to Ambrosio, and given the price difference and weight difference (all manufacturers have "tolerances"!), better to spend this on better hubs, or pocket the change and splash out on nice tyres, IMO!

    There are benefits to wide rims, as I said, but these only kick in either on lower spoke-count wheels (where you win on stiffness/weight) or aerodynamics (both through tyre/rim shape, and lower spoke counts). If you're not racing and have 32 spokes to play with, then these benefits diminish.
  • apreadingapreading Posts: 4,533
    djaeggi wrote:
    Wide rims and record hubs work well together. you still want the extra tyre witdth and lateral grip that comes from a wide rim.

    You get pretty much the same effect running 25mm tyres.

    All the reports say that NO you dont get the same effect running 25mm tyres on narrow rims, its about the shape and profile of the tyre as much as the extra width.

    Besides, you get even more effect running 25mm tyres on wide rims - MUCH better.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,092
    Indeed,

    what gives wider rims an edge is the profile the tyre has when mounted. 23 mm rims (17 internal) are ideally suited to 23 mm tyres and still wear 25 mm tyres well.
    If you fit a big tyre (25 or more) on a tiny rim (14 internal or less), the only advantage you have is a marginally lower running pressure, but the handling is actually compromised, compared to a smaller one. If you read Italian forums, nobody want to run 25 mm tyres as they don't handle particularly well coming down the Passo Fedaia... they would however on a bigger rim.
  • djaeggidjaeggi Posts: 107
    The effect is pretty subtle, too subtle for me to perceive much difference over and above the primary effect which is tyre volume/pressure. I'm clearly not an Italian descending god ;-). For the record I regularly ride all of 23mm on wide rims, 25mm on regular rims, 22/23mm tubs. There's not much in it between the first two; if you really want to rail it, you should be on tubs (maybe these haven't made it to Italy yet ;-) ).

    Fitting 25mm on a wide rim, fair point, and I don't do this because one of my frames doesn't have the clearance. But then, aren't you going back towards the lightbulb shape, negating the supposed handling benefits? I'm all for increased tyre volume, BTW, so if you want to run effectively a 28mm tyre, then this is the way to do it, because there's good availability of 25mm rubber.
  • djaeggidjaeggi Posts: 107
    PS Ugo, do you have a link to said Italian forum? (My Italian is basic but my Spanish is good so I can read it ok). Grazie mille!
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,092
    djaeggi wrote:
    PS Ugo, do you have a link to said Italian forum? (My Italian is basic but my Spanish is good so I can read it ok). Grazie mille!

    I use this

    http://www.bdc-forum.it/
  • mamil314mamil314 Posts: 1,103
    Reading this thread got me thinking about actual value of things we seek. I am building a disc Lynskey bike to commute in SW London, occasionally circle Richmond Park and participate in club sportive once in a while. I would like strong and durable wheels that would not be that heavy as i am bound to face some hills, and, after doing some research, i'd come up with the following:

    Velocity Aileron 32
    DT Competition
    DT Swiss 240s 32h centrelock or 6bolt
    Brass nipples

    I picked this rim because i would be using 25mm for commuting/road and would switch to 32mm for canal runs and their spec says they handle various pressures ( my Vredestein 25mm can run like 160 PSI ). Hub seems to have a good reputation for reliability, good weight and smooth rolling, but, perhaps, i could make different choices not to the detriment of pretty stiff, durable and not too heavy disc brake wheel? I am new to this and i think i need some down to earth advice from experienced folks who know what they're doing. I weigh 85 kg, but i just got back into being active and should drop.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,092
    mamil314 wrote:
    Reading this thread got me thinking about actual value of things we seek. I am building a disc Lynskey bike to commute in SW London, occasionally circle Richmond Park and participate in club sportive once in a while. I would like strong and durable wheels that would not be that heavy as i am bound to face some hills, and, after doing some research, i'd come up with the following:

    Velocity Aileron 32
    DT Competition
    DT Swiss 240s 32h centrelock or 6bolt
    Brass nipples

    I picked this rim because i would be using 25mm for commuting/road and would switch to 32mm for canal runs and their spec says they handle various pressures ( my Vredestein 25mm can run like 160 PSI ). Hub seems to have a good reputation for reliability, good weight and smooth rolling, but, perhaps, i could make different choices not to the detriment of pretty stiff, durable and not too heavy disc brake wheel? I am new to this and i think i need some down to earth advice from experienced folks who know what they're doing. I weigh 85 kg, but i just got back into being active and should drop.

    If you are building them yourself, then it seems a sensible build, if not, then don't approach a builder with a list of what you want... best to have a dialogue and be open minded.

    You can drop a bit of weight using Sapim D-Light spokes and they will still be solid and durable wheels. There are cheaper hubs, if money is an issue
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Also i have found the pacenti rim to e a better rim. rounder for a start. I always have trouble getting the wheels round straight and even tension with these rims its doable but takes real time. Maybe a dodgy batch. I have even had to return one to blb as it was simply awful. Best leave building the aileron to a wheel bulider. Use the pacenti sl25 if yoj are building yourself its a better made rim.

    Once again i am go off velocity rims.

    Also to dgeajji if you cant tell the difference between a 25mm tyre like the gp4000s on a mavic open pro (25mm wide) and the same tyre on the archetype (27mm wide) then there is no hope as it like chalk and cheese to me. 2mm is noticable otherwise you would not like 25mm tyres over 23mm. Also your cornering speeds go up a bit i really notice that.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • djaeggidjaeggi Posts: 107
    Also to dgeajji if you cant tell the difference between a 25mm tyre like the gp4000s on a mavic open pro (25mm wide) and the same tyre on the archetype (27mm wide) then there is no hope as it like chalk and cheese to me. 2mm is noticable otherwise you would not like 25mm tyres over 23mm. Also your cornering speeds go up a bit i really notice that.

    No, I'm positively sure there's a difference, I've only run 23mm on wide vs 25mm on normal, and these feel broadly comparable run at similar pressures, and measure roughly the same (Michelin 25mm runs a bit wide too). I totally accept if you want to run a roughly 27/28mm tyre, then doing this via a wide rim and 25mm rubber is the way to go (if you've got the frame clearance to do this). Fully on board with this and have been using 25mm tyres as my default choice since before it stopped raising questions like "why aren't you using 23mm"!

    But, basic point is this, there are trade-offs in wheel design, and various things matter more or less (with 32 spokes, 75kg rider and a ~450g alu rim, things like spoke fatigue life, rim stiffness, basically don't matter, within reason obviously). It's not automatically correct that wide is best; it's worth understanding the compromises. Compared to the Archetype, an Excellight saves you some grams and ~£40. Looking at starbike (currently in the process of speccing a similar wheel so this is current for me!), actually the two standout rim choices - and these are both wide - are either the DT R460 at £22 or the RR440 at £46.

    On starbike currently, DT 350 hubs, R460 rims, DT Comp spokes, with shipping comes in at just under £200. This is a bargain and would make a top-quality everyday wheelset! Throw more money at it and you can upgrade the rims to RR440 (+£48) and get better hubs (+£40) and thinner spokes (+£20) and you're still coming in around £300.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,092
    djaeggi wrote:
    But, basic point is this, there are trade-offs in wheel design, and various things matter more or less (with 32 spokes, 75kg rider and a ~450g alu rim, things like spoke fatigue life, rim stiffness, basically don't matter, within reason obviously). It's not automatically correct that wide is best; it's worth understanding the compromises. Compared to the Archetype, an Excellight saves you some grams and ~£40. Looking at starbike (currently in the process of speccing a similar wheel so this is current for me!), actually the two standout rim choices - and these are both wide - are either the DT R460 at £22 or the RR440 at £46.

    On starbike currently, DT 350 hubs, R460 rims, DT Comp spokes, with shipping comes in at just under £200. This is a bargain and would make a top-quality everyday wheelset! Throw more money at it and you can upgrade the rims to RR440 (+£48) and get better hubs (+£40) and thinner spokes (+£20) and you're still coming in around £300.

    As a a matter of fact, the Ambrosio is more expensive than an Archetype... if then Starbike sell them at a bargain price, that is a different story. Somewhere you can get an Archetype for 45 pounds, if you look hard enough. Starbike will also charge you around 15 pounds for UK delivery, if I remeber correctly.
    The 460 is a sleeve joined rim, the 440 is welded and give you a smoother braking action. It might well be that the rim is better balanced too, thing you will find out (once again) coming down the passo Fedaia, where I am told even amateurs reach 100 Km/h
  • mamil314mamil314 Posts: 1,103
    Thanks for your replies.

    I will admit i have been looking at Pacenti SL25 initially, but there some people reports about struggling to mount/unmount tires; also, i prefer the looks of Aileron ( even with Pacenti stickers inevitably off ); and i could not find confirmation of how shallower SL25 handle high pressure tires, but, seeing how those rims are similar otherwise, i am probably just being overly cautious.

    Good shout on D-Light spokes, it makes sense to use them throughout the build to save some spinning weight, even in Rear wheel Drive side, because of 32. Also, after some further reading, it seems DT 350 rear hub will do job nicely while keeping 240 up front will allow the conversion to that thru axle fork in the future.

    I would not be building myself, i do not have knowledge or tools and thus would not trust the results. Using fibre disc fork alone makes me a bit scared ( irrational, i know ) and i am having images in my head of disc brakes ejecting wheels. Now, where are all those nice thru axle steel forks? I wonder if cross bike would be preposterous with rigid mtb fork on ^ ^
  • djaeggidjaeggi Posts: 107
    As a a matter of fact, the Ambrosio is more expensive than an Archetype... if then Starbike sell them at a bargain price, that is a different story.

    Exactly, bigger bargain, "better" rim for less money! Something's only as expensive as the amount of money you pay for it ;-)
    Starbike will also charge you around 15 pounds for UK delivery, if I remeber correctly.

    A fiver actually, or zero if you spend enough money with them.
    The 460 is a sleeve joined rim, the 440 is welded and give you a smoother braking action.

    I'd be extremely surprised if a quality rim manufacturer like DT put out a rim with brake surface issues. I've had a few sleeved rims and never experienced this. Have you seen a R460 with a non smooth braking surface? Do let me know, cos I may well be buying these soon! If not, it's a hypothetical problem.
    It might well be that the rim is better balanced too, thing you will find out (once again) coming down the passo Fedaia, where I am told even amateurs reach 100 Km/h

    You're referring to dynamic balance of the wheel at speed? There's *so* much wrong with this, despite what the Italian descending gods reportedly claim... The forces generated by an out of balance bike wheel, even at speed, are minuscule... static balance is not the same as dynamic balance, and you can only fix the latter with a machine that spins the wheel up... by the time you've added a tyre and inner tube, the whole static balance of a wheel is upended anyway... who's to say a welded rim is more balanced anyway, e.g. my Ambrosio Excellence have a brass counterweight, why do other welded rims not do this... why do pros not do this, especially given deep section carbon rims, with no joint and long valve stems, are seriously out of static balance? Total non issue IMO, and again I've never experienced this, have you?
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,092
    djaeggi wrote:
    As a a matter of fact, the Ambrosio is more expensive than an Archetype... if then Starbike sell them at a bargain price, that is a different story.

    Exactly, bigger bargain, "better" rim for less money! Something's only as expensive as the amount of money you pay for it ;-)
    Starbike will also charge you around 15 pounds for UK delivery, if I remeber correctly.

    A fiver actually, or zero if you spend enough money with them.
    The 460 is a sleeve joined rim, the 440 is welded and give you a smoother braking action.

    I'd be extremely surprised if a quality rim manufacturer like DT put out a rim with brake surface issues. I've had a few sleeved rims and never experienced this. Have you seen a R460 with a non smooth braking surface? Do let me know, cos I may well be buying these soon! If not, it's a hypothetical problem.
    It might well be that the rim is better balanced too, thing you will find out (once again) coming down the passo Fedaia, where I am told even amateurs reach 100 Km/h

    You're referring to dynamic balance of the wheel at speed? There's *so* much wrong with this, despite what the Italian descending gods reportedly claim... The forces generated by an out of balance bike wheel, even at speed, are minuscule... static balance is not the same as dynamic balance, and you can only fix the latter with a machine that spins the wheel up... by the time you've added a tyre and inner tube, the whole static balance of a wheel is upended anyway... who's to say a welded rim is more balanced anyway, e.g. my Ambrosio Excellence have a brass counterweight, why do other welded rims not do this... why do pros not do this, especially given deep section carbon rims, with no joint and long valve stems, are seriously out of static balance? Total non issue IMO, and again I've never experienced this, have you?

    1) I never thought Excellight was worth its price tag. I've built a few... it's a good rim, it's not better than others that cost half. Is 40 quid a bargain? You say so, for me it's what it's worth.

    2) Occasionally I manage to build a set of wheels that are well balanced... if you spin the wheel on a bike stand as fast as you can by the cranks, you will see the vibrations (or lack of) it causes on the frame. When you pass 75-80 Kmh, it is quite evident the different behaviour of a well balanced wheel over one that is not. Some rims are better balanced than others... my HED + are OK...
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    tyre mounting on Pacenti SL25 rims in not hard. If you really worry about tyre mounting then stop riding bikes. I have found for example that is very hard (that for me as well) to mount gator skin hardshells onto Mavic Ma40 rims so hard you wont be able to do this at the road side. However the same tyre can be mounted by hand on the Pacenti SL25 rims. did that last week without sore fingers, it was quite easy.

    My opinions on tyre mounting are possibly a bit harsh but I hope my general point is clear.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,092
    My opinions on tyre mounting are possibly a bit harsh but I hope my general point is clear.

    ... It's not clear at all... :roll:
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    The point is it is not just the rim, the tyre being used and tyre fitter all determine how easy it is to mount. Some people do it all wrong and have trouble others are trykng to a tyre that is just hard Kn that rim, like my example of gator skin hardshells with mavic ma40 rims.

    Another example is challange strada bianca on pacenti sl25 rims and the sl23 for that matter. The same tyre fits the velocity alerion withiut issue but dont try fitting this tyre to the h plus archetype as you will get no where fast. The archetype is often touted as a rim which it is easier to get tyres Onto.

    The point is listen to generals rules about some rims are more of a problem with tyres than others does not fit my own experience.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • keezxkeezx Posts: 1,311
    djaeggi wrote:
    The 460 is a sleeve joined rim, the 440 is welded and give you a smoother braking action.

    I'd be extremely surprised if a quality rim manufacturer like DT put out a rim with brake surface issues. I've had a few sleeved rims and never experienced this. Have you seen a R460 with a non smooth braking surface? Do let me know, cos I may well be buying these soon! If not, it's a hypothetical problem.

    A couple of months ago i've built me a set with DT R460's (28/24 with Miche hubs) , no braking issues.
    They're supposed to be a Chinese made rim but the me 100% worth the money and effort.
    Rapidley becoming my favorite set.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Shame in the u.k you cant get the 24h rim out of madison.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • keezxkeezx Posts: 1,311
    24H wasn't imported in NL too, got it only on special order, tooks 6 weeks...no problem in the winter.
  • TheHoundTheHound Posts: 284
    Does anyone have a real world weight for the Ryde Pulse Sprint rim?

    Some places say 395g others say 430g.
    Bianchi Intenso Athena
    Handbuilt Wheels by dcrwheels.co.uk
    Fizik Cyrano R3 Handlebars
    Selle Italia SLR Kit Carbonio Flow saddle
    Deda Superleggero seatpost
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    385 to 395g. 430g is published weight for the ryde pulse comp rims but they are 415-425g.

    Published weight like ERD can be total nonsense. Also the ERD of the Ryde rims is different to that published and not by a little bit either.

    Regarding the R460 rim what is the point in waiting that long to get soe or more when the Kinlin XC-279 rim exists and this is a good rim and readily available. If a good alternative exist why search out the harder to find item. All you are saving is 30g per rim hardly enough to justify a long wait.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,092
    Regarding the R460 rim what is the point in waiting that long to get soe or more when the Kinlin XC-279 rim exists and this is a good rim and readily available. If a good alternative exist why search out the harder to find item. All you are saving is 30g per rim hardly enough to justify a long wait.

    Because one is tubeless and the other one isn't?
  • TheHoundTheHound Posts: 284
    Just spoke to a lbs that advised in the 350-400 squid region factory wheels are the way to go unless you want something really specific like a set for heavy load touring.

    Essentially saying factory wheels are better for the same money.

    Anyone else agree? I was all set to order some handbuilts and now I'm doubting myself.
    Bianchi Intenso Athena
    Handbuilt Wheels by dcrwheels.co.uk
    Fizik Cyrano R3 Handlebars
    Selle Italia SLR Kit Carbonio Flow saddle
    Deda Superleggero seatpost
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,092
    TheHound wrote:
    Just spoke to a lbs that advised in the 350-400 squid region factory wheels are the way to go unless you want something really specific like a set for heavy load touring.

    Essentially saying factory wheels are better for the same money.

    Anyone else agree? I was all set to order some handbuilts and now I'm doubting myself.

    Depends what you mean by better. If you stick to the big four (Mavic, Shimano, Fulcrum, Campag) you can get lighter wheels per similar quality, taking advantage of offers and discounts.

    All of them use a range of proprietary parts which are hard to source and can give you grief once the warranty expires or if the part is not covered by warranty (bearings, freehub wear, rim wear etc).

    You have to take a good look at the mirror and see if you want something that will last 1-2 years and then move on or if you want something that can potentially last a lot longer by replacing the worn out parts.

    If you just want to press a button and get some wheels delivered to your door, it is a no brainer to be honest.

    A shop will always tell you factory wheels are better... they make the same profit margin and don't have to do anything... problem for them is very few will actually buy them from a shop... :wink:
  • I had my first foray into buying handbuilts and apart from getting a really nice pair of wheels the other really valuable thing was the dialogue between me and the builder in finding out what I needed or just wanted. This gave me options which I wouldn't of got from factory wheels and a learning experience for me as well.
  • lostboysaintlostboysaint Posts: 4,369
    I had my first foray into buying handbuilts and apart from getting a really nice pair of wheels the other really valuable thing was the dialogue between me and the builder in finding out what I needed or just wanted. This gave me options which I wouldn't of got from factory wheels and a learning experience for me as well.

    That. Except that I've been doing it for a while with MTB wheels and recently took the step into handbuilt road wheels. In every case the results have been far superior on a bang/buck basis.
    Trail fun - Transition Bandit
    Road - Wilier Izoard Centaur/Cube Agree C62 Disc
    Allround - Cotic Solaris
  • TheHoundTheHound Posts: 284
    Pretty much what I thought really. Just made me doubt myself a bit.

    Thanks.
    Bianchi Intenso Athena
    Handbuilt Wheels by dcrwheels.co.uk
    Fizik Cyrano R3 Handlebars
    Selle Italia SLR Kit Carbonio Flow saddle
    Deda Superleggero seatpost
  • lostboysaintlostboysaint Posts: 4,369
    I would add that my LBS (Solent Cycles) built one of my MTB wheelsets for me following discussions. And a really good job they made of it as well!
    Trail fun - Transition Bandit
    Road - Wilier Izoard Centaur/Cube Agree C62 Disc
    Allround - Cotic Solaris
  • keezxkeezx Posts: 1,311

    Regarding the R460 rim what is the point in waiting that long to get soe or more when the Kinlin XC-279 rim exists and this is a good rim and readily available. If a good alternative exist why search out the harder to find item. All you are saving is 30g per rim hardly enough to justify a long wait.

    I have allready a set with the Kinlins, the point is that i wanted a set of DT460's.
    Couple of clubmates asked my to build wheels with the DT's.
    Was no effort, because the only thing I did was ordering....
    Wasn't ment for my winterbike, just a test build for myself, so absoluteley no problem.
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