Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

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  • djaeggi
    djaeggi Posts: 107
    It's not a question of overall wheel stiffness.... the rim stiffness doesn't change the fact that the spokes, in aggregate, have to carry a given load; rim stiffness only affects the distribution of load over the spokes.

    What I mean is this: say a cyclic radial load of 400N on the rim (70kg rider + 10kg bike, halved), let's say the rim is stiff enough such that each spoke sees a maximum cyclic load of 100N (and actually, the exact rim stiffness doesn't matter). If the bracing angle on the DS is 3.4degrees and the NDS is 7.6degrees, then the DS spokes carry ~69N. Bump up the NDS angle (higher bracing angle) and the DS spokes carry more load, e.g. 8 degrees and the DS then takes 70.5N. Super small difference (i.e. not worth worrying about, because the gross parameters of the wheel build have far greater effect, e..g number/type of spokes) but, still, narrower flanges reduce cyclic loading on the DS spokes.

    Of course, the situation is reversed with lateral loads, but lateral loads are much smaller and don't get incurred every wheel revolution, so from a fatigue perspective are much less critical.

    Point is, I don't see a justification to favour one hub over another based on fatigue life (and, anyway, fatigue life of spokes is way in excess of the rim life). If stiffness is an issue, then maybe, but then as Ugo says, stiffness issues don't tend to crop up if you've got a sensible build (i.e. decent number of spokes for the wheel). Maybe it's more critical in the limit, i.e. low spoke count, deep section rim (note that "lack of stiffness" is a complaint when the rim hits the brake pads... which is 180 degrees around from the application of load, so this needs a stiff rim to transfer the deflection round - engineering gut reaction!).

    In other words, I've just convinced myself that the DT 350 looks a great bang-for-buck hub!
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    edited April 2015
    disc brake wheels are stiff enough. My reference to DT Swiss hubs is probably confused matters as I am thinking of the rim brake hubs. the disc brake hubs DT Swiss do are very good indeed and there geometry is fine. That distrinction I should have made.

    I was trying to answer the question that putting the NDS flange inboard (or the rim brake DT Swiss 350 rear hub) improve radial stiffness and therefore fatigue life which it doesn't. That is all I am trying to show. Putting the NDS rear flange a bit more out to the left does not harm fatigue life of the spokes (I think it probably improves it for some riders) but increases lateral stiffness which most people like.

    I think therefore my final point which was if the rim is stiff enough then the DT Swiss hubs work just fine. but a 28 spoke rear is mimimum that you need (for the rim brake hub) unless the rim is a RR585 or some other heavy deep section rim. So yes the DT hubs are fine but in my view not optimal. If they moved that NDS flange out I would be all over them all of the time.

    For the DT Swiss 350 disc brake hubs go for it they are fine, apart from removing that ratchet it is a bit tight
    The miche syntium hubs is something I have on order with Miche delivery due in about 4 weeks. It's an OEM hub for wheel builders really. Freehub body is the SWR version which unfortunatley is more expensive than the Primato body.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    thecycleclinic wrote:
    Freehub body is the SWR version which unfortunatley is more expensive than the Primato body.

    It would be good if it was better than the road version... for CX and off road you ideally want a few more contact points and faster engagement... bigger pawls would also be good
    left the forum March 2023
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    They want to keep the hubs convertable for 142x12mm which means a larger axle is required. A 12mm axle simply wont work for rear thru axles other wise I would agree. To many bikes are appearing with a 142x12mm axles for Miche to box themselves in. I do expect rather pointlessly that nearly all disc brake road bike over the next few years will be for 15mm and 142x12mm axles.

    Desides these are mostly for road disc brake wheels. True CX is a pretty small market.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    thecycleclinic wrote:

    Desides these are mostly for road disc brake wheels. True CX is a pretty small market.

    In terms of hand built wheels it's not that small, as the choice of specific wheelsets is very limited.

    For 200 quid I expect a better freehub mechanism than the one on the Primato hubs though... Novatec 542 is awesome and Hope PRO 2 is very very good as well
    left the forum March 2023
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Well I still find the number of issues with Miche freehubs to be so small to be not worth worrying about. With every hub there is always a comprimise. Personally the comprise Hope make with there hubs in terms of geometry is not worth the freehub they offer which are also extremely soft (do they still do a steel version).

    The perfect disc brake hub does not exist. it is yet to be made but Shimano come very close Cx-75 but is a bit heavy for some and the DT swiss 350 hub has that annoying ratchet to remove which is overly tight and a bit soft freehub bodies. there is always something that someone does not like in any hub although I am not normally one to complain about soft freehubs however many people do.

    Royce and White Industries do make probably the best disc brake hubs but they are not cheap.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    thecycleclinic wrote:
    Well I still find the number of issues with Miche freehubs to be so small to be not worth worrying about. With every hub there is always a comprimise. Personally the comprise Hope make with there hubs in terms of geometry is not worth the freehub they offer which are also extremely soft (do they still do a steel version).

    It's not about the splines... that isn't an issue. My point is that if I spend 200 quid for some hubs I want a top notch freehub, not a budget one with three micro-pawls and a spring-retainer that engages every 15-20 degrees or so. Hope PRO 2 geometry has worked well for many years, I think you are getting over worried (should I say obsessed? :twisted: ) about geometry... we used to build the Mavic 501 rear hub which had a 45 mm wide flange and yet with modern rims works a treat (less so with an Ambrosio Crono). Geometry is an issue in extreme cases, like those Mon Chasseral wheels built on a DT 240 with 28 DT Revs and a DT RR 415 rim... that was a bit crap admittedly.

    If the Primato cost 75 pounds I am not sure in these there is an extra 125 quid... that's my point
    left the forum March 2023
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Yes it does work works well enough on a stiff rim with 32 spokes. well it would as they orginally designed ot for 26 inch mtb wheels. Hope hubs have three pawls too invidually sprung but they engage every 20 degrees or so which i have never found to be a problem. Dt swiss hubs have engagement every 20 degrees unless to change to the 36t rachet rings. Most road hubs enagement is quite similar how they the pawls are sprung is almost an irrelevence to me so long as they continue to spring And engage with the rachet ring in the hub.

    I maybe obessed by hub geometry (i am a geek) , ugo you are obbessed by freehub mechanisms. any bedtime now a cobbled adventure tomorrow.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    thecycleclinic wrote:
    any bedtime now a cobbled adventure tomorrow.

    I bet you're going to hate it before Mons En Pevele rather than after... enjoy... so to speak... :wink:
    left the forum March 2023
  • drlodge
    drlodge Posts: 4,826
    I'm a big fan of handbuilt wheels, Ugo has already built 2 sets for me and I'm about to have him build a third. Harry Rowland has built 2 sets also.

    Current wheels on my Rourke (HR build):
    Record hubs (32H), Excellight rims, Sapim laser fronts, race rear. Supersonic inner tubes and Pro4 Service Course tyres 23c.

    Did 73 miles yesterday with the pressure down a tad (100 rear 90 front), these really are a nice set of wheels! But I'm after something different:
    - wider rim to give give a better profile. Still 23c tyre as the frame won't take 25c
    - tubeless, well why not...some advantages to be had (so says Ugo...)
    - lower spoke count...I'm 79kg and 32H is a bit overkill
    - but still want wheels that are light, strong and not too expensive. All round wheels but with a bit of a bling factor, a bit different.

    So first is the rim, the best all round rim there is. I would have been thinking Archetype or Pacenti SL23, but Ugo's blog on the RR440 rim got me thinking...it even has asymmetric drilling available which can only be a good thing.
    Hubs - Hope RS mono seem like a reasonable hub, I prefer cup & cone but sealed bearings are easy to replace. In gun metal grey.
    Spokes - the front don't need many, so went with 20 radial CX-Ray. Rears will be 28 - radial DT revs NDS, 3x DT Comp or Alpine 3 drive side.
    Tyres - Schwalbe One.

    Just like these in fact:
    DSC_4029_zpsvolzyvnv.jpg

    Ugo's blog is a good read http://whosatthewheel.com/2015/03/06/dt-swiss-rr440-one-for-the-wheel-builders-out-there/

    Will try and do a wee write up once I've ridden these for a while, and see how they compare to the current hoops.
    WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
    Find me on Strava
  • Spooked
    Spooked Posts: 90
    Hi guys,

    I'm just leaving up my front wheel which is a 20 hole with a 2 cross pattern. Think I've gone wrong in that two spokes are two long then two ok and then two too long again all the way around the rim. Is this right? Or have I gone completely mad through lack of sleep?

    Appreciate any help. I'm baffled....
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
      I loved all of it ugo, even mon son pevele. Seriously good fun annd i would do it again.

      Spooked you have gone wrong. Dont bother trykng to work out your mistake. Unbuild the wheel and relace from scratch it will be quicker.

      Drlodge, i like the dt swiss rr440 rim. The rim is only 1mm wider ineternally than your ambrosio rims which make some difference to the tyre profile but not alot. The asymetric drilling for the rear is nice and so is the tubeless compability. If you want a shallow rim then it is probaly the best one out there at the moment a suppose that is why you like it.
      http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
    • drlodge
      drlodge Posts: 4,826
      thecycleclinic wrote:
      Drlodge, i like the dt swiss rr440 rim. The rim is only 1mm wider ineternally than your ambrosio rims which make some difference to the tyre profile but not alot. The asymetric drilling for the rear is nice and so is the tubeless compability. If you want a shallow rim then it is probaly the best one out there at the moment a suppose that is why you like it.

      I would love a deeper rim, but anything that is deep and going to last will be heavier. I have a set of 50mm carbon tubs for best, so as you say these rims are probaby the best there is for what I want. Not that my existing wheels are particularly lacking in any department...
      WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
      Find me on Strava
    • ugo.santalucia
      ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
      drlodge wrote:
      I would love a deeper rim, but anything that is deep and going to last will be heavier. I have a set of 50mm carbon tubs for best, so as you say these rims are probaby the best there is for what I want. Not that my existing wheels are particularly lacking in any department...

      I see the 440 as a climbing rim, an alternative to Campag Neutron and Shimano Cl 24. As such it doesn't need to be deeper, deep justs stand in the way of decent handling. The fact that is wider than both the above and tubeless is a bonus, especially for alpine trips.

      Speaking of which, a bit of advertising for my region... :wink:

      http://whosatthewheel.com/2015/04/14/ri ... tern-alps/
      left the forum March 2023
    • Spooked
      Spooked Posts: 90
      That's great. I thought I was going mad. Cheers cycle clinic!
    • Bordersroadie
      Bordersroadie Posts: 1,052
      thecycleclinic wrote:
      dt swiss rr440 rim. The rim is only 1mm wider ineternally than your ambrosio rims

      That's really interesting. I've two wheelsets with Excellight rims and wondered about a change to the R440 when one pair is worn, to gain benefit from the new wider rim fashion. That's a lot of hype for 1mm*!

      * ok, they're tubeless compatible but it's interesting to listen to all the hyperbole around wider rims only to find my old-fashioned narrow Ambrosios are, let's be honest, the same internal width. The Excellight is a classy rim, beautifully made and the laser-etched logos are lovely. And their real weight is 450 if I recall from a recent thread correctly...

      How does the internal width of OpenPros compare to these two by the way?
    • menthel
      menthel Posts: 2,484
      ugo.santalucia wrote:
      drlodge wrote:
      I would love a deeper rim, but anything that is deep and going to last will be heavier. I have a set of 50mm carbon tubs for best, so as you say these rims are probaby the best there is for what I want. Not that my existing wheels are particularly lacking in any department...

      I see the 440 as a climbing rim, an alternative to Campag Neutron and Shimano Cl 24. As such it doesn't need to be deeper, deep justs stand in the way of decent handling. The fact that is wider than both the above and tubeless is a bonus, especially for alpine trips.

      Speaking of which, a bit of advertising for my region... :wink:

      http://whosatthewheel.com/2015/04/14/ri ... tern-alps/

      Thought of running tours? ;)
      RIP commute...
      Sometimes seen bimbling around on a purple Fratello Disc or black and red Aprire Vincenza.
    • ugo.santalucia
      ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
      I would rather run the cafe'/restaurant at the top of Col de Joux to be honest...
      left the forum March 2023
    • menthel
      menthel Posts: 2,484
      ugo.santalucia wrote:

      I would rather run the cafe'/restaurant at the top of Col de Joux to be honest...

      Tell us when you are and I will come and visit!
      RIP commute...
      Sometimes seen bimbling around on a purple Fratello Disc or black and red Aprire Vincenza.
    • ugo.santalucia
      ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
      Very good deal for those who are looking for a solid, top notch rear disc hub... I've had mine for 18 months and it's a superb hub, with the fastest engagement and one of the best freehubs out there... 9-10 speed only... at 75 quid including delivery, it's a steal!

      http://www.bdopcycling.com/Hubs-D542SB.asp
      left the forum March 2023
    • robbo2011
      robbo2011 Posts: 1,017
      drlodge wrote:
      I'm a big fan of handbuilt wheels, Ugo has already built 2 sets for me and I'm about to have him build a third. Harry Rowland has built 2 sets also.

      Looks like you have a bit of a wheel addiction, Dr Lodge. :)
    • steel191964
      steel191964 Posts: 32
      I have been following this thread and others connected to wheel building and also wheels in general as i was looking for an upgrade.

      The bike i bought came with Mavic cosmic elite which have been fine but i wanted to upgrade i suppose to have summer wheels although having said that the thought of changing back to the elites in the winter is less unlikely now i have been riding the new wheels.

      I decided to have mine wheels built and contacted Malcolm at the cycleclinic and discussed my requirements, i decided to have the carbon rims 38 with dura ace hubs and one small thing i didn't want any livery on the wheels. I also discussed with him the benefits of tubular and decided that this was the way forward so the tyres are continental competition.

      Its not a cheap set of wheels came in at around 1k but i don't believe these will need an upgrade, also the picture of the wheel on his website doesn't do them justice they really look fab.

      So to the most important thing the ride all i can say it comparing them to the elite's is chalk and cheese, the first thing was the weight difference much lighter but the ride was amazing the roll and effort to maintain a speed seemed to require less effort (check strava later and this was confirmed so just not in my head). Where i live and part of my normal ride there are 4 cat 4 climbs the increase of the speed on the descents was noticeable it really was and also the cornering seemed to improve.

      I also had Malcolm send me a spare tyre which i have mounted on to a old rim, took a bit longer than a clincher and a few more swear words but i managed it so it wasn't as bad as i thought it would be.

      So a big thanks to Malcolm great advise and money well spent.
    • harry-s
      harry-s Posts: 295
      ugo.santalucia wrote:
      Very good deal for those who are looking for a solid, top notch rear disc hub... I've had mine for 18 months and it's a superb hub, with the fastest engagement and one of the best freehubs out there... 9-10 speed only... at 75 quid including delivery, it's a steal!

      http://www.bdopcycling.com/Hubs-D542SB.asp

      Great spot Ugo, I think I'll go for one of these as a spare, - what do you recommend, alloy or steel axles?
    • ugo.santalucia
      ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
      Harry-S wrote:
      ugo.santalucia wrote:
      Very good deal for those who are looking for a solid, top notch rear disc hub... I've had mine for 18 months and it's a superb hub, with the fastest engagement and one of the best freehubs out there... 9-10 speed only... at 75 quid including delivery, it's a steal!

      http://www.bdopcycling.com/Hubs-D542SB.asp

      Great spot Ugo, I think I'll go for one of these as a spare, - what do you recommend, alloy or steel axles?

      Mine is an alloy axle... I would only get a steel one if you plan to use it for downhill MTB or stuff like that.
      They also have the 541 front on offer, but that seems less of a price reduction
      left the forum March 2023
    • ntc
      ntc Posts: 69
      ugo.santalucia wrote:
      Harry-S wrote:
      ugo.santalucia wrote:
      Very good deal for those who are looking for a solid, top notch rear disc hub... I've had mine for 18 months and it's a superb hub, with the fastest engagement and one of the best freehubs out there... 9-10 speed only... at 75 quid including delivery, it's a steal!

      http://www.bdopcycling.com/Hubs-D542SB.asp

      Great spot Ugo, I think I'll go for one of these as a spare, - what do you recommend, alloy or steel axles?

      Mine is an alloy axle... I would only get a steel one if you plan to use it for downhill MTB or stuff like that.
      They also have the 541 front on offer, but that seems less of a price reduction

      Been thinking about these hubs for a while, built with bdops carbon disc specific rims..

      http://www.bdopcycling.com/DTO-40%20DIS ... 20RIMS.asp

      Should build into a good set of wheels for nice day winter duties..any obvious reasons why not and what spokes to use I'm 65 ish kg
    • ugo.santalucia
      ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
      ntc wrote:
      ugo.santalucia wrote:
      Harry-S wrote:
      ugo.santalucia wrote:
      Very good deal for those who are looking for a solid, top notch rear disc hub... I've had mine for 18 months and it's a superb hub, with the fastest engagement and one of the best freehubs out there... 9-10 speed only... at 75 quid including delivery, it's a steal!

      http://www.bdopcycling.com/Hubs-D542SB.asp

      Great spot Ugo, I think I'll go for one of these as a spare, - what do you recommend, alloy or steel axles?

      Mine is an alloy axle... I would only get a steel one if you plan to use it for downhill MTB or stuff like that.
      They also have the 541 front on offer, but that seems less of a price reduction

      Been thinking about these hubs for a while, built with bdops carbon disc specific rims..

      http://www.bdopcycling.com/DTO-40%20DIS ... 20RIMS.asp

      Should build into a good set of wheels for nice day winter duties..any obvious reasons why not and what spokes to use I'm 65 ish kg

      No reason not to... at your weight 28 or even 24 front and Sapim D-Light as spokes would be my choice.
      left the forum March 2023
    • primalcarl
      primalcarl Posts: 579
      Can anyone recommend a light-weight handbuilt pair of wheels for a rider of 70kg, preferably tubeless compatible?

      I currently have Stans 340 rims on Novatec hubs built by Strada, but there's a lot of side to side flex which I don't like.
      www.csimages.info
    • ugo.santalucia
      ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
      primalcarl wrote:
      Can anyone recommend a light-weight handbuilt pair of wheels for a rider of 70kg, preferably tubeless compatible?

      I currently have Stans 340 rims on Novatec hubs built by Strada, but there's a lot of side to side flex which I don't like.

      Pacenti SL 23 is the stiffest tubeless rim out there. Stans 340 is the "softest"... in between you will find many others, like Velocity A 23, DT RR 440, RR 460.

      How many spokes and which spokes do you have at the rear currently?
      left the forum March 2023
    • ntc
      ntc Posts: 69
      ugo.santalucia wrote:
      ntc wrote:
      ugo.santalucia wrote:
      Harry-S wrote:
      ugo.santalucia wrote:
      Very good deal for those who are looking for a solid, top notch rear disc hub... I've had mine for 18 months and it's a superb hub, with the fastest engagement and one of the best freehubs out there... 9-10 speed only... at 75 quid including delivery, it's a steal!

      http://www.bdopcycling.com/Hubs-D542SB.asp

      Great spot Ugo, I think I'll go for one of these as a spare, - what do you recommend, alloy or steel axles?

      Mine is an alloy axle... I would only get a steel one if you plan to use it for downhill MTB or stuff like that.
      They also have the 541 front on offer, but that seems less of a price reduction

      Been thinking about these hubs for a while, built with bdops carbon disc specific rims..

      http://www.bdopcycling.com/DTO-40%20DIS ... 20RIMS.asp

      Should build into a good set of wheels for nice day winter duties..any obvious reasons why not and what spokes to use I'm 65 ish kg

      No reason not to... at your weight 28 or even 24 front and Sapim D-Light as spokes would be my choice.

      Cheers Ugo, will start gathering the bits then with a view to having them built up later in the year. I might call on your services to build then up if you're interested?
    • primalcarl
      primalcarl Posts: 579
      ugo.santalucia wrote:
      primalcarl wrote:
      Can anyone recommend a light-weight handbuilt pair of wheels for a rider of 70kg, preferably tubeless compatible?

      I currently have Stans 340 rims on Novatec hubs built by Strada, but there's a lot of side to side flex which I don't like.

      Pacenti SL 23 is the stiffest tubeless rim out there. Stans 340 is the "softest"... in between you will find many others, like Velocity A 23, DT RR 440, RR 460.

      How many spokes and which spokes do you have at the rear currently?

      The rear has 24 spokes, not sure what type they are though as I bought the wheels on Ebay as new and didn't get that info.

      I like the look of the Pacenti SL23 on Dura Ace hubs but £570 is a lot of cash, could I gain much with any other build?
      www.csimages.info

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