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Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

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  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Well when madison first brought in the rr440 rim i asked for over two months for the 24h rim. Eventually they ordered them it took a couple more months and three times the wrong rims where sent. I end up waiting over 5 months to get the 24h rims. Not doing that again it was a ball ache. Wheelbuilders in general need to buy at trade price to keep the lights on if we cant it is simply not profitable enough to be worth the extra hassle.

    Besides the xc 279 rim can be run tubeless apparantly.

    As for factory wheels being profitable for shops they are not. The deals you find at wiggle et al approach trade price in many cases. Selling factory wheels is mugs game best left to the usual suspects that curcumvent the distribution chain Or get discounts that most shops cannot get of the distributors. Factory wheels are also not better they are simply available next day whicn suits many. It quicker not better also there is consistant quality which helps those who have not sussed the good wheelbuilders from the medicore or poor ones. Also for shops that are able to sell them it is alot easier but where the love in that. Factory wheels are commodity like a cassette Or chain and i feel the same way towards them as a cassette. Dont get me wrong there is nothing wrong with a campagnolo, fulcrum, mavic or shimano wheels apart from thw width in mosg cases it just that i dont want them. Rambling now.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • keezxkeezx Posts: 1,311
    Profile of the Kinlin XC279 is obvious not ment to be tubeless.....

    Ontopic: I do not ride anything else but selfbuilt anymore, suits my needs better, I can choose every part myself.
    Just because I like it that way, nothing off the shelf.
    My bikes (3 as we speak) are a mixture of Campagnolo , Shimano and SRAM and more, and so are my wheels.
  • SRC1SRC1 Posts: 301
    When building with CX ray is difficult to measure the tension on the non drive side, as it falls below the calibrated range of virtually any tension gauge.

    I've read this from you a few times and can't quite agree, unless I'm missing something... I've built 5 rear wheels with cx-ray spokes using my park tension gauge and had no problem measuring and achieving even NDS (& DS) spoke tension.
  • TheHoundTheHound Posts: 284
    I'll chuck out another question of you guys don't mind.

    Are cx rays worth twice as much as the d-lights? Are the stronger and twice as durable?
    Bianchi Intenso Athena
    Handbuilt Wheels by dcrwheels.co.uk
    Fizik Cyrano R3 Handlebars
    Selle Italia SLR Kit Carbonio Flow saddle
    Deda Superleggero seatpost
  • houndlegshoundlegs Posts: 267
    Have any of the wheel builders on here had any bad experiences with H Plus Son Archetypes, I ask because Strada say they wont use them anymore http://www.stradawheels.co.uk/product/h ... archetype/
    I'e got two sets of them and am happy with both, just wondered if there was anything in this.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,087
    houndlegs wrote:
    Have any of the wheel builders on here had any bad experiences with H Plus Son Archetypes, I ask because Strada say they wont use them anymore http://www.stradawheels.co.uk/product/h ... archetype/
    I'e got two sets of them and am happy with both, just wondered if there was anything in this.

    After building thousands, it sounds a bit silly of them to say that. Most likely they had a disagreement with the distributor... or the profit margin is not high enough
  • BordersroadieBordersroadie Posts: 1,052
    houndlegs wrote:
    Have any of the wheel builders on here had any bad experiences with H Plus Son Archetypes, I ask because Strada say they wont use them anymore http://www.stradawheels.co.uk/product/h ... archetype/
    I'e got two sets of them and am happy with both, just wondered if there was anything in this.

    After building thousands, it sounds a bit silly of them to say that. Most likely they had a disagreement with the distributor... or the profit margin is not high enough

    Seems a tad unfair and a bit of a silly thing to say, which is quite ironic when you think about it. Strada continue to recommend other H Plus Son rims (TB14) and are quite detailed and candid in their explanation to ditch the Archetype rim:

    " Strada says – we have built a lot of Archies over the last 2 1/2 years and spent time and effort promoting them. Unfortunately over 2014 we noticed a deterioration in the quality of the rim and we struggled to maintain even spoke tension on each side of the wheel (this means spokes are all working at the same level and less likely to failure). No substandard Archetypes left the workshop but the amount of time we spent re-rimming those which were not good enough was financially and time wise too high for us. So it is with regret that we don’t rate the Archetype any more or as a rim we want to build with. Which is a terrible shame as it was a great rim and we tried to find out what was going wrong."
  • apreadingapreading Posts: 4,533
    If I were looking for some, I would ask one of the other big wheel builders. I am sure that isnt necessary as I trust UGO and others on here and I think they build enough of them to have an idea, but as UGO says, the big boys build loads so maybe try one of them like justridingalong or someone else with a bigger operation and if they say it is tosh, I would be inclined to believe them and think its either sour grapes or maybe Strada just got a dodgy batch or maybe they emplyed a kid for a while who couldnt build and just blamed the rim... I am sure in the past that UGO said they were one of the easiest(or easier at least) rims he built.
  • BordersroadieBordersroadie Posts: 1,052
    apreading wrote:
    .... think its either sour grapes or maybe Strada just got a dodgy batch or maybe they emplyed a kid for a while who couldnt build and just blamed the rim...

    . . .or we could assume that the guys at Strada are just honest blokes with good wheelbuilding skills and that their website explanation is an honest and accurate explanation.

    It seems ludicrous to me that the previous two posters have basically said that Strada are liars. Like Strada, I run a very small business and rely on my own hard work and reputation to survive. Comments like these, based on no facts whatsoever, can damage such small businesses and dare I say are not just disrespectful and untrue but slanderous.

    Perhaps, like Ugo and Cycleclinic have a voice on this forum, we should invite Strada to comment on this thread themselves instead of giving them "trial by rumour".
  • apreadingapreading Posts: 4,533
    Would be great if Strada came on here to back it up, but I didnt say they were liars, I said check with some of the other bigger builders and if they say its not true then I would be inclined to think there is more to it than just what Strada imply which is that the manufacturing quality has critically nosedived. I am sure we would have heard this elsewhere if that were really the case. Strada say it has been happenning for some time but yet they are the ONLY one saying this about one of the most used rims out there over the last year or two.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    I built with thd archetype misg days. Have not noticed any change in quality. Also the tb14 rim is one where tension can be less even than with tge archetype. There claim makes no sence.

    Keezx the archetpe rim can be tubeless and it does not have a tubeless prolife So just beacuse arim is not tubeless compatible does not mean tubeless tyres wont work. Yet to try it though with the xc279.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • BordersroadieBordersroadie Posts: 1,052
    Just because Strada are the only ones saying this does not mean it is not true. It also doesn't mean there is a big issue with Archetype rims.

    We should look at it from the small business persons' (ie STrada's) viewpoint. I'm a cabinetmaker and over the years I've had suppliers that have suddenly taken an unexplainable nosedive in quality. I have had to switch suppliers despite wanting to support my previous one. As a sole trader I have very limited time to investigate the why and wherefores of an apparent quality dip, all I know is that I must protect my own labour costs and profits, both of which are very difficult to maintain. I suspect that Strada had the same approach, hence their clear explanation on their website.
  • cal_stewartcal_stewart Posts: 1,840
    That being said, why are they the ONLY ones saying it?
    eating parmos since 1981

    Canyon Ultimate CF SLX Aero 09
    Cervelo P5 EPS
    www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40044&t=13038799
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,087
    Strada are very picky... they do return a lot of rims to BLB. I did in the past occasionally buy some of their returns half price from BLB when there was nothing else available (the classic 28 H drought) and a friend was up for a bargain, taking a punt. Most of the times were minusculous cosmetic nicks, things that you don't even see anymore after 3 days of use. They charge more than others, so they probably only want the immaculate ones. ALL of them were absolutely fine with no structural issue whatsoever even after 1-2 years of use, except one which had a bulgy joint, but I spotted it before picking it up, so that was never built.
    I have never returned an Archetype rim (including those above). I find the quality always consistent and still the same as 2 years ago...

    In other words, nothing to declare... 8)
  • Whats peoples thoughts on these wheels in this build . . .

    DT Swiss RR40 rims on Novatec F482/A291 hubs and DT Revolution spokes 28/ two cross rear, 24/radial front, total weight 1480 grams
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Use those novatec hubs for raceday wheels that what they are for. For hubs that will high miles i.e normal riding before bearings need changing pick something witha bigger bearing like miche, hope mono rs, shimano ultegra campagnolo record e.t.c depending on the spoke count you need. Saving weight at the hubs is fine for race day wheels as you not necessarily mind chnaging bearings at the end of a season but for most folk this would be a pain.

    otherwise the build is o.k. i would use sapim race ds though unless you light.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • Use those novatec hubs for raceday wheels that what they are for. For hubs that will high miles i.e normal riding before bearings need changing pick something witha bigger bearing like miche, hope mono rs, shimano ultegra campagnolo record e.t.c depending on the spoke count you need. Saving weight at the hubs is fine for race day wheels as you not necessarily mind chnaging bearings at the end of a season but for most folk this would be a pain.

    otherwise the build is o.k. i would use sapim race ds though unless you light.

    No i'm aprox 85KG - i dont really want a heavy wheel ( i know I should loose weight but . . . ) the price of the above was £350 which is good i think but i guess not if you will be changing bearing out. I do aprox 100 miles a week.

    was looking at those over the kysiruim elites.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    your gram pinching which is almost pointless the mavic could work well for you but if you want something even better then get miche hubs and sapim race spokes ds rear and brass nipples or similar in that build and you will be happy. Weight will be around 1655g which is not heavy and the extra 170g is not even noticeable And cetrainly will not make you any slower than riding the mavics.

    The good thing about the dt swiss rim is the rear is offset so spoke life will be very long. Much longer than the mavic wheels could hope for. You also have a wheel that can fixed If you damage it. The rim is also tubeless compatible should you wish to give that a go. I am obviously biased.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,087
    DKay wrote:
    Yes and if you take a look around on the web, you'll find that in the larger world of cycling, nobody else seems to be having any issues with Archetype rims. Only Strada.

    It depends how discerning you want to be: laterally all rims build to within 0.1 to 0.2 mm, but if you expect every rim to build within 0.1-0.2 mm vertical tolerance, then you will inevitably re-rim and return a significant proportion of them... if you are happy with 0.4 (+ or - 0.2 that is) then you might return one rim every few hundred.
    As I said above, I did build a few of their returned rims and they were absolutely fine by the above standards. I never found a correlation between having perfect vertical "trueness" and any meaningful parameter like longevity, braking performance, handling and such... they might descend better at 60 + mph, but then someone might fit an 80 mm valve stem and be back to square one... :roll:
  • Strada WheelsStrada Wheels Posts: 38
    edited March 2015
    Hello - this is Jonathan from Strada. I'd like to address a few comments on this thread first hand.

    I have not had a disagreement with BLB the distributor for H Plus Son. In fact we worked hard with them, they were very helpful and still purchase other lines from them. Secondly, the margin was the industry standard so no complaints there.

    We tried a variety of batches. The same two experienced wheelbuilders built each pair. We purchased a £500+ DT Swiss Digital spoke tensio meter to make sure we were building wheels to the correct tension and tested lots of Archies.

    MADE UP FIGURES - FOR EXAMPLE ONLY - COULD APPLY TO ANY PRODUCT LINE FROM ANY SUPPLIER

    If we had we built 100 pairs last summer and 50% failed after six months - think about the rebuild, logistical and warranty costs for a small business it would incur, let alone the potential to damage to our reputation. Strada supports three families and my responsibility is to make sure we do not risk my business or the employment of my wheel builders. So I reluctantly decided to take a conservative approach to the situation. I want to give an honest opinion on products that we use and I can't just drop the No. 1 rim so I decided to give my reasoning.

    We set very high standards for our builds and I want to deliver wheels which we are 100% confident that you will enjoy riding for a long time.

    Of course, other builders may have other opinions and make business decisions on different business criteria accordingly.
    Strada Hand Built Wheels
    www.stradawheels.co.uk
  • apreadingapreading Posts: 4,533
    Appreciate you coming on here Jonathan, and putting your point across. While you seem to have sought to address all the questions raised, there are a couple of things I dont understand.

    On your website it says that none went out like that, so presumably you returned the faulty ones to BLB and got your money back? So I dont see what the reputational risk was? Was the return rate really as high as 50%? And how far out were they? Were they really that bad that you thought they would all come back to you within six months?

    Not saying you arent telling the truth, but if you arent at least exaggerating then either everybody else is lieing or you are just cursed for some reason. Why are other builders not going out of business for using them and suffering this reputational damage you speak of? Nobody else on the web seems to be saying they are failing or unable to tension evenly - word would soon spread because people love to tell all the bad stuff on the web.

    It still just seems odd, is all.

    I do appreciate your post though.
  • We returned a significant number to BLB. I don't have an exact figure. The 50% is only in relation to the example I was trying to give. So I'll re-phrase that part to clarify thank you.

    The third paragraph is an examination of what could have happened if we had decided to go ahead so it is an EXAMPLE only and COULD apply to ANY product line.

    Re lying or cursed - I don't know, heck maybe we've got it wrong and everyone else is right! For my own business I made the decision not to use them as I personally thought the risk was too high. That does not mean they are a bad product, just not the right line for us currently.
    Strada Hand Built Wheels
    www.stradawheels.co.uk
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,087
    If we had we built 100 pairs last summer and 50% failed after six months -

    What you mean by fail? As I said above, in times of absence, I have scavenged and built some of your returned rims for bargain hunters and I am pleased to say none of them failed (the last was probably 10-11 months ago) or gave any problem at all.

    I appreciate you being conservative and it's certainly a good thing, but I still don't understand what you mean by FAIL... :roll:

    I have a Mitutoyo vernier caliper, courtesy of Proto on here, that FAILED calibration in his precision engineering company, but it is still a damn good caliper, miles better than any cheaper version I ever owned.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    I am not sure what you mean by fail either. Was it a returned wheel after 6 month of use or was it a reject because it was not round enough to being with. I use a dt swiss guage too and and so does ugo. i have never found an alloy rim that reliably builds to within 0.2mm vertical tollerance time after time Unless i made the tensions uneven which no wheel builder wants to do.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    I am sure he is honest it just we are trying understand his decision. It sounds much like the decision i made about not using the a23 rim after a few dodgy ones.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • g00seg00se Posts: 2,220
    Another hand-built question....

    I'm looking to try my hand at some local club TTs and a few crits this summer. By TT, I mean challenging myself on my existing road bike, not getting a new n+1 TT setup.

    Currently, my best wheels are some Ryde Pulse Sprints - for the hills and general riding - and I've got some basic, boxy winter wheels. I fancy something a bit more aero for the racing but don't want to spend a fortune on carbon rims if it's not for me.

    So I'm thinking aero aluminium rims on basic light hubs - so they'll work for the events but also be a decent summer option for some fast group rides around Norfolk if I don't enjoy the racing.

    I like the look of Flo 30 rims and Boyde Altamont rims because of the Zipp/Firecrest like profiles.

    http://flocycling.blogspot.co.uk/2013/0 ... re_12.html
    http://www.boydcycling.com/products/alt ... ncher.html

    But they seem to be only really available in the US - importing them would hike the price right up.

    Can anyone think of anything similar locally. Or am I being too obsessive with that type of profile - and should just go with something like a Kinlin 279?

    Ta
  • houndlegshoundlegs Posts: 267
    Why dont you just try racing on the wheels you have? Rather than buy a set of wheels just to try it. If you like it then invest in wheels, if you dont, then no money wasted.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    I would also use the wheels you have. Flo30 rims are fine but getting them can be hard work And expensive enough to wonder why not go witha wide deep torodial shaped carbon rim.

    The kinlin rim is nice and cheap and fairly aerodynamic but yoj may want to wait for the new ryde dp18. It is wide and 33mm deep so it should be fairly aerodynamic due in april i believe. I would wait for the dp18 but drillings is limited at first to 24h 28h 32h and 36h.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • g00seg00se Posts: 2,220
    Well, I've got the Ryde Pulse Sprints for the alps and they're great. Sounds like a plan.
  • trek_dantrek_dan Posts: 1,366
    Does anybody know what rims the Spin Koppenbergs Max25's are based on? Are they available to buy as rim only? I'm liking the idea of wide rims and if I'm honest being purely clinchers (and not tubeless compatible like Pacenti) should mean easy tyre changes.
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