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Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

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  • arlowoodarlowood Posts: 2,449
    eddiefiola wrote:

    Now need to find someone to service the hub and possibly replace the freehub, or attempt myself.

    If you consider the self-help option then my step by step bearing replacement experience at the end of this thread might be of some help

    viewtopic.php?f=40004&t=12933141&p=18457044#p18457044

    This was on an F482SB hub but I think the internals will be basically the same as far as the service operation goes.

    I did not attempt to replace the freehub bearings - just bought a new one with ABG (anti-bite guard) and that has lasted well without being chewed by cassettes
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    edited March 2015
    I also mostly build with brass nipples but it does not mean ally is bad. Alloy nipples do seize in the end but I have found some brass nipples difficult to turn after a few years in place and the nipple rounds or distrorts meaning it has to come of and be replaced. That what happens when you ride in the wet.

    Effolida
    I would just continue to use the freehub. It being chewed does not affect its function. If the bearings are rough then replace it.

    Bearings can be replaced buy the following method. 6001 main bearings 6901 freehub bearing but these require a bit more skill and good tools to effectively replace. I find NBK bearings work just fine in these hubs and that what you have. More expensive bearings do not seen to increase bearing life significantly.
    1) 5mm allen key in one end cap
    2) 17mm cone spanner on the DS end cap and undo.
    3) remove the freehub body (it will slide off), finger iside both bearings and spin if they feel rough replace the freehub body (the bearings can be replaced but this is more tricky).
    4) 5mm allen key in NDS end cap and 17mm cone spanner on NDS end cap and undo.
    5) remove all parts of the end cap.
    6) spin the axle if it feels rough replace the bearings
    7) Hit the axle from the DS towards the NDS this knocks out the DS bearing.
    8) use a bearing extractor or a screw driver to remove the DS bearing.
    9) press in the new DS bearing with a socket/threaded bar/washers or proper bearing press.
    10) insert axle
    11) use one of the old bearings as a drift to press the new NDS bearing into the hub over the axle. You will need to long socket to enclose the axle so a thread bar/washer press or bearing press will work.
    Ressamble the end cap and slide the freehub body on.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • lostboysaintlostboysaint Posts: 4,369
    Due to the absence of Archetype 32 hole in the UK for a period last year I had a set of Velocity A23 built and they're superb.
    Trail fun - Transition Bandit
    Road - Wilier Izoard Centaur/Cube Agree C62 Disc
    Allround - Cotic Solaris
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    from a wheel builders perspective the a23 rim is second rate rim. Not as round as the archetype with a lower tension limit sometimes only 1100N.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • DKayDKay Posts: 1,652
    With regards to nipples seizing into place due to repeated exposure to water, what is the deal with regards to washing? I wash my wheels on a regular basis (and after every ride in the winter).
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,092
    DKay wrote:
    With regards to nipples seizing into place due to repeated exposure to water, what is the deal with regards to washing? I wash my wheels on a regular basis (and after every ride in the winter).

    It is electrochemistry... there is quite a difference in work function (oxidation potential) between stainless steel and aluminium and less between stainless and brass. What it means is that in the absence of an insulating layer (or an extra metal) between the two, aluminium oxidises and the product acts as a binder on the threads. Oxidation also weakens the material, obviously. Water is a mild catalyst, but more so salts, as they are very conductive. I would say washing is a good thing as it remove salts and contaminants. You can protect the threads with various products, but nothing last forever, one-two winters at best
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    on the plus side (if you ignore the down side) a seized cant move so the wheel cant go out of true. Think if it a electrochemical threadlock of the permanent kind. The weakening of the nipples as they corrode is also why alloy nipples are not the best idea for heavier riders as it just another weak link.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • DKayDKay Posts: 1,652
    Ta for the replies.
  • philclubmanphilclubman Posts: 229
    They will come at 1450 grams.

    I would sacrifice the drive side and build it with 12 DT Swiss Alpine 3 instead. You will gain 40 grams and a lot of stiffness, as well as durability.

    This habit of building rear drive sides 24 H with Sapim Laser is a bit censored to be honest

    Just came across this comment and it's quite relevant to me at the moment.

    I'm having an issue with a flexy rear wheel. It's a Miche Primato on Kinlin XR300 built with 24 Sapim CX Rays. The wheel rubs on the brakes when putting in efforts. I'm not a hugely powerful rider at 64kg. They were built by a reputable builder.

    Just spoke to my local wheel builder (he didn't build the wheels) and he said that the flex shouldn't be down to the CX Rays. He didn't really have any suggestions.

    Is the consensus that re-building with Sapim Race on the drive side would make the wheel a better ride and stop the rubbing on the brake blocks?
  • apreadingapreading Posts: 4,533
    Its a small sample but I have also seen, on two occasions, alloy nipples fracture on mountain bikes - never seen that with normal ones. Cant see it worth the weight saving to me, one aborted ride due to this and you will wish you hadnt bothered. I guess mountain biking adds sharp impact stress to the equation though, so might not be as likely on the road.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,092
    They will come at 1450 grams.

    I would sacrifice the drive side and build it with 12 DT Swiss Alpine 3 instead. You will gain 40 grams and a lot of stiffness, as well as durability.

    This habit of building rear drive sides 24 H with Sapim Laser is a bit censored to be honest

    Just came across this comment and it's quite relevant to me at the moment.

    I'm having an issue with a flexy rear wheel. It's a Miche Primato on Kinlin XR300 built with 24 Sapim CX Rays. The wheel rubs on the brakes when putting in efforts. I'm not a hugely powerful rider at 64kg. They were built by a reputable builder.

    Just spoke to my local wheel builder (he didn't build the wheels) and he said that the flex shouldn't be down to the CX Rays. He didn't really have any suggestions.

    Is the consensus that re-building with Sapim Race on the drive side would make the wheel a better ride and stop the rubbing on the brake blocks?

    Marginally... open the pads a tad more, seems a better solution TBH
  • philclubmanphilclubman Posts: 229
    They will come at 1450 grams.

    I would sacrifice the drive side and build it with 12 DT Swiss Alpine 3 instead. You will gain 40 grams and a lot of stiffness, as well as durability.

    This habit of building rear drive sides 24 H with Sapim Laser is a bit censored to be honest

    Just came across this comment and it's quite relevant to me at the moment.

    I'm having an issue with a flexy rear wheel. It's a Miche Primato on Kinlin XR300 built with 24 Sapim CX Rays. The wheel rubs on the brakes when putting in efforts. I'm not a hugely powerful rider at 64kg. They were built by a reputable builder.

    Just spoke to my local wheel builder (he didn't build the wheels) and he said that the flex shouldn't be down to the CX Rays. He didn't really have any suggestions.

    Is the consensus that re-building with Sapim Race on the drive side would make the wheel a better ride and stop the rubbing on the brake blocks?

    Marginally... open the pads a tad more, seems a better solution TBH

    Afraid they're as wide as they'll go without the levers contacting the bars.

    Any other suggestions?
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,092
    When building with CX ray is difficult to measure the tension on the non drive side, as it falls below the calibrated range of virtually any tension gauge. It's not impossible that over time you have developed a slack NDS of the wheel, resulting in poor stiffness.

    For this reason, I try to use these only in combination with asymmetric rims or triplet laced wheels, so the tensions are more balanced and I can do a better job. Interestinlgy the Kinlin 24 holes is one of the rims where triplet lacing is possible, by using a 32 H rear hub and lacing every other hole on the non drive side. This is the idea... (courtesy of Ergot Wheels) NDS here is laced 1 cross, but it can be radial on a budget forged hub like Miche. It is also a much stiffer wheels than the equivalent 24 H laced conventionally. Giving away all the tricks here... :wink:

    638533490_piCa5-XL.jpg

    If you really want to replace 12 spokes, then go all the way and use some mega monsters... DT Swiss Alpine 3 or Sapim Force... I prefer the former
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Frame flex can often be confused with wheel flex in fact the is no way when you are riding of telling the difference between the two. Deeper rims like the XR-300 flex more than a wheel built with a shallower rim of the same stiffness why the deeper rim will "pivot" on the spoke nipple when bending given it is deeper the lateral movement will be greater. No way around that one. It may also be as ugo pointed out insufiecent tension in the NDS spokes meaning they go slack under a bit of side load. Only Sapim's spoke gauge can read the tension of CX-rays on the NDS rear. I have had to buy one. Ugo you should too.

    If flex is a geniune problem stiffer spokes (sapim race for example) will help or replacing the rim with the far stiffer Kinlin XC279 rim. In fact while I used to use the XR-300 I have stopped now the similar depth, wider and stiff XC-279 hit the market. The archetype and Pacenti rims though are more popular.

    Replacing the rim will have a bigger impact than re spoking with stiffer spokes as you are limited by the stiffness of the rim.

    Triplet lacing buy itself though does not increase lateral stiffness, it increase NDS spoke tension which is different. Some theory now. On a conventional hub like the Miche if you build triplet you end up with a less stiff wheel than if it were built 2x 12/12 both sides rather than 16/8. The reason is the NDS spokes impart more lateral stiffness to the wheel than the DS due to the larger bracing angle. So to compensate for the lack of NDS spokes in triplet lacing the ideal hub will have the NDS flange pushed out far beyond what is possible with a hub of conventional drilling. My own Royce hubs for triplet lacing have the following centre of flange to centre of hub spacing 17mm/46mm. Compare that to a conventional hub which may be 17mm/37mm you can see the base of the triangle is much wider on my Royce custom hubs.

    Miche do make a proper triplet lacing hub called the SWR but it is straight pull only and I have yet to workout what fractional crossing is needed to calculate spoke lengths. That hub has similar dimension to my Royce hubs.

    So triplet lacing is fine I have done it but with a hub of conventional geometry it is not worth it as the increase spoke life you get from the increase in NDS tension is offset but the decrease in fatigue life of the spokes due to the increased ammount of flex. Even Ergot has come to that conclusion. If however you use a hub that is built specifically for triplet lacing with the NDS flange pushed out then you get around the stiffness issue and you maximise spoke life before fatigue failure happens.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,092
    Frame flex can often be confused with wheel flex in fact the is no way when you are riding of telling the difference between the two. Deeper rims like the XR-300 flex more than a wheel built with a shallower rim of the same stiffness why the deeper rim will "pivot" on the spoke nipple when bending given it is deeper the lateral movement will be greater. No way around that one. It may also be as ugo pointed out insufiecent tension in the NDS spokes meaning they go slack under a bit of side load. Only Sapim's spoke gauge can read the tension of CX-rays on the NDS rear. I have had to buy one. Ugo you should too.

    It's only 5 mm deeper than an average rim, surely that makes no meaningful difference in the "pivot effect" you mention.

    I have no desire to buy yet another tension meter. I also have no desire to convert into yet another "CX Ray for all" type of builder.
  • philclubmanphilclubman Posts: 229
    Thanks both for the really technical answers. Some really clever stuff.

    On a more practical level, I'm wondering if there's a way to build the wheel to be stiffer. I'm not keen on buying a 32 hole hub and all new spokes or on buying a new rim and new spokes.

    Last question to the forum before I let the thread go back on track - Does anyone have an opinion on whether it's worth having someone with the correct tension meter have a go at re-tensioning the spokes and keeping the CX-Rays all round? Alternatively having the wheel re-built with Sapim Race (or other spoke) on the drive side?

    Thanks in advance

    Think I'm gonna go for some factory Mavics next time ;)
    (only kidding)
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,092
    Thanks both for the really technical answers. Some really clever stuff.

    On a more practical level, I'm wondering if there's a way to build the wheel to be stiffer. I'm not keen on buying a 32 hole hub and all new spokes or on buying a new rim and new spokes.

    Last question to the forum before I let the thread go back on track - Does anyone have an opinion on whether it's worth having someone with the correct tension meter have a go at re-tensioning the spokes and keeping the CX-Rays all round? Alternatively having the wheel re-built with Sapim Race (or other spoke) on the drive side?

    Thanks in advance

    Think I'm gonna go for some factory Mavics next time ;)
    (only kidding)

    Having them checked is the first step, obviously
  • norvernrobnorvernrob Posts: 1,448
    When building with CX ray is difficult to measure the tension on the non drive side, as it falls below the calibrated range of virtually any tension gauge. It's not impossible that over time you have developed a slack NDS of the wheel, resulting in poor stiffness.

    For this reason, I try to use these only in combination with asymmetric rims or triplet laced wheels, so the tensions are more balanced and I can do a better job. Interestinlgy the Kinlin 24 holes is one of the rims where triplet lacing is possible, by using a 32 H rear hub and lacing every other hole on the non drive side. This is the idea... (courtesy of Ergot Wheels) NDS here is laced 1 cross, but it can be radial on a budget forged hub like Miche. It is also a much stiffer wheels than the equivalent 24 H laced conventionally. Giving away all the tricks here... :wink:

    638533490_piCa5-XL.jpg

    If you really want to replace 12 spokes, then go all the way and use some mega monsters... DT Swiss Alpine 3 or Sapim Force... I prefer the former


    Wow they look pimp, I wouldn't mind my Zipp 202's rebuilding in those colours! :P
  • I am after some new wheels for my Disk CX bike, the OE wheels are 1840 grms and I want to save a bit of weight for both racing and general riding. The wheels below would be my ideal choice's but a bit more than I want to spend. Are there any handbuilts that are similar but cheaper?

    http://www.westbrookcycles.co.uk/ffwd-f ... et-p281600
    or
    http://www.westbrookcycles.co.uk/mavic- ... 15-p261881
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,092
    I am after some new wheels for my Disk CX bike, the OE wheels are 1840 grms and I want to save a bit of weight for both racing and general riding. The wheels below would be my ideal choice's but a bit more than I want to spend. Are there any handbuilts that are similar but cheaper?

    http://www.westbrookcycles.co.uk/ffwd-f ... et-p281600
    or
    http://www.westbrookcycles.co.uk/mavic- ... 15-p261881

    Very recently discussed, by simply using the search function of "disc wheels"

    viewtopic.php?f=40042&t=13020090&p=19490190&hilit=disc+wheels#p19490190
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    rim depth does make some difference to lateral deflection but it is relative to what you compare it too. Having tension checked in your Kinlin wheel is not a bad idea but it will have to be with someone who has a sapim gauge or perhaps the wheel fanatik gauge as the DT Swiss gauge cannot read the NDS spokes and if you go by the DT Swiss chart for aerolites you would think a deflection of 0.5 is 1200N for the DS. It is not however. A deflection of 0.65 is 1200N (I have a jig to determine this). The Park tool TM-1 gives similar falsehoods. If the NDS tension is even (with in reason) and the DS tension is 1200N then it is not a tension problem. In this case then re building with sapim race spokes or better still the Kinlin XC-279 and sapim race spokes and you will have no flex issues with the wheel. If you get brake rub it will be flex in the frame.

    You should contact whoever built the wheel and see what they say. Most wheel builders will backup there work and will want to help you.

    Ugo no one expects you to build with CX-rays often I myself so so every couple of weeks and sometimes more infrequent than that. They are just too expensive. However the sapim spoke tension gauge means you don't have one spoke with low tension and the other with high which is the danger. I am mostly deaf in one ear and partial hearing in the other therefore I do not rely on my sense of hearing to gauge relative tension because I can't.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,092
    rim depth does make some difference to lateral deflection but it is relative to what you compare it too. Having tension checked in your Kinlin wheel is not a bad idea but it will have to be with someone who has a sapim gauge or perhaps the wheel fanatik gauge as the DT Swiss gauge cannot read the NDS spokes and if you go by the DT Swiss chart for aerolites you would think a deflection of 0.5 is 1200N for the DS. It is not however. A deflection of 0.65 is 1200N (I have a jig to determine this).

    There is a calibration chart for Sapim spokes and DT gauge made available by some nice guy and done by folks at Sapim.
    1200 N for CX Ray reads about 0.7 or so by memory on the DT gauge.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    ill should have written 0.67 deflection not 0.65. Wherd is this published never seen it.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • SpookedSpooked Posts: 90
    After posting in the wrong thread :-/ whoops....

    Hi guys,

    Hope it's all ok to post on this thread. I've decided to build my own wheels. I did so when I was sixteen and fast forward twenty odd years of like to do the same again.

    I have been running a pair of fulcrum 5's which flex and are pretty knackered now.

    Just wondering what you would spec?

    I weigh 75kg and primarily use the bike around sussex road so fairly punchy short sharp hills and undulating terrain. I really enjoy going uphill weirdly. I'm going to be using the bike once or twice a year in alpine locations too.

    Quite like the look of the miche hubs but have also thought about campag record. Wanted to keep the build under £350 if possible.

    I really have no idea what rims, spokes and hubs to use and wondered with some of your experience you'd recommed?

    Guess I'm looking for something light and fairly strong. Really appreciate any help you can throw me.

    Cheers!
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    edited March 2015
    H plus archetype on miche primato hubs. Lowish cost and reliable. A 24f/28r would sensible with sapim laser spokes front/nds rear and sapim race ds rear. Weight 1715g and stiffer than your fulcrums. You could drop the spoke count and it saves some weight but not not allot. I don't you would have problems with a 24 spoke rear so it is an option.

    Record hubs are sublime and technically perfect. Given the 32h drilling archtype rims and sapim laser spokes all round would be the way i would suggest given you low weight. The rear wheel is plenty stiff enough that using a thicker spoke means the spoke will still outlast the rim. The only thing to watch for when building with lasers is wind up. If you are not used to dealing with it it can pose a problem.

    If you dont want to deal with spoke wind up then use sapim race or dt comps. Over 64 spokes it adds up to 100g So it not a big deal really.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • SpookedSpooked Posts: 90
    Thats absolutely brilliant. Thank you. Would you say the archetype is a better rim to use than say the Pulse?
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    If you define better as more robust, stiffer and a thicker brake track then the archetype wins. If you define better as lighter, off set drilling for the rear while maintaining decent stiffness then the ryde pulse sprint rim wins. Then again on that basis so does the DT Swiss RR440.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • djaeggidjaeggi Posts: 107
    @Spooked

    A slightly different perspective from an amateur wheelbuilder...

    The first (and only!) time I built with lasers, it was a PITA dealing with the windup and the wheel suffered stability issues (I had to rebuild). If this is your first build, sticking with regular 2.0/1.8/2.0 spokes is going to make your life a lot easier. Unless you use cx-rays, which are easy to build with because you can clamp the aero section and you don't get windup, but these will likely blow your budget. Also bear in mind that if you build it using regular spokes, then a rebuild with thinner spokes later is also on the cards.

    Second, if going with Record hubs (which are great!), then you're stuck with 32h (as you're aware). In which case, the argument for using a wider rim diminishes a little - what a wide rim does (tyre size/shape aside) is ups the lateral/torsional stiffness of the rim itself without much extra weight. But using a more conventional 32h rim then actually saves you some weight without any compromise in performance (minor aero savings aside), because with 32 spokes you don't need the additional rim stiffness that comes with the Archetype. Something like an Ambrosio Excellight (430g) can be had for less than £30 a rim ordered direct from the EU (e.g. try starbike.com for wheel stuff), and this is an bargain at about half the price of an Archetype. Or similarly (and actually a wide rim too!) the DT RR440 (slightly heavier and more expensive - again, order from starbike for a decent price). Built on record hubs, something like this would be a great combo, I've spent many happy miles on very similar wheelsets. (I'm the owner of a lower spoke count HED Belgium wheelset too so can make a direct comparison and there's really not much in it TBH - I actually take one of my "classic" 32h wheelsets on trips to europe in preference to the HEDs, for a bunch of reasons).

    Hubs: somewhere in between the Miche and the Record hubs are the DT 350s, which look like a great package. Also, PMP hubs offer Record-like quality and style, but come in a range of drillings and have cartridge bearings, for only a very few £s more. (EUR exchange rate is very favourable at the minute).

    Excellight built 28/32 on PMP hubs, or 32/32 on Record hubs would be my suggestion (choice of spokes depending on your wheelbuilding confidence), makes a classic all-Italian wheelset for very reasonable money, and an easy build too.

    If you want a lower spoke count wheel, then by all means go with thecycleclinic's suggestion, this would be a good package too, but a slightly harder build I think.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Wide rims and record hubs work well together. you still want the extra tyre witdth and lateral grip that comes froma wide rim. Record hubs built onto archtype rims is a very stiff and robust wheelset. The excellight rims are 450g not 430g. Ambrosio lie about the weight. The dt swiss rr440 rim is 450g and slightly wider and the rear rim is offered in a offset drilling which increase nds rear spoke life.

    Given the excelight/record build even with sapim race spokes will be less stiff than the rr440/ record build and the archetype/record build (in that order) rear spoke life on the ambrosio build should be shorter. The stiffer the wheel the less flex there is so during each rotation of the wheel the spokes fatigue less. The off set drilling of the rr440 rim offset that fact it is not as stiff as the archetype rim so go with either rim not the excelight.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
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