Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

munkster

On that 87psi limit then. I routinely pump my tubeless road tyres up to 90-100 (usually the higher one because I know some air will escape when I remove the pump, and the pressure will go down a bit anyway just because it's tubeless) and surely I'm not alone? What is the rationale behind the 87psi limit if anyone knows? I guess there's no reason why it has to be a round number but I am curious about it nevertheless.

And yes, I am aware that one of the benefits of running tubeless is you can run lower pressures however ISTR someone (Ugo?) said that that was why one of my tyres was squaring off prematurely so I became a bit more careful about pumping them up a bit past what was generally ending up being 60-70psi.

ugo.santalucia

I guess in their tests tyre pop off the rim at say 125 PSI... they then allow ample margin of error, allowing for error in the pump pressure gauge, human error etc. etc. and end up with a figure of 87 PSI, which maybe translate into something more meaningful in BAR, say 6

munkster

Fair do's. I'm not imagining it though, that is quite a low figure whichever units isn't it? Likely that some/many will ignore/not realise the guidance maybe? If I get some (and I intend to) I will clearly be (more) mindful than now!!

torino

I think the 87psi limit is for 28mm tyres with tubeless setup isn't it?

This is from Ksyrium Pro UST, but even though Mavic says it is entirely another rim, it is hard to believe the OP is that much different:

Max. Pressure tubeless: 25mm 7 bars - 100 PSI, 28mm 6 bars - 87 PSI. Max pressure tubetype: 25/28mm 7,7 bars - 110 PSI

With tubes up to 110psi.

torino

Well actually these Ksyriums are 622-17 and the OPs are 622-19 so yes, definitely not the same rims. Couldn't find max pressure information in the Mavic website for the OP though. 87psi would also be non-go for me.

mrb123

Deadlegs wrote:

Thanks for the feedback Malcolm. You shortened my list as 87psi max is too low for Mavics. Had a look & didn't fancy DT rims (RR511 too heavy) but now you've made me want their hubs! + added Easton R90SL into the mix -10g lighter, 2mm deeper & £10 cheaper than HED but from the same factory. None of these are significant but I like the lighter and deeper part

I may have read & forgotten but anyone have a comparison of DCR and Miche Primato hubs? DCR £30 more & weigh 130g less. What about durability/frequency of service/quality in use?

My head says Kinlin 31s but the little voice keeps saying "Lighter, pretty rims, spend spend :twisted: "

Have you considered the DT Swiss r411 rims?

My DCR hubs have proven excellent so far although they've been confined to summer use. I'm sure the Miche would be more suitable for winter/bad weather use.

agent_buchwald

if i was deciding between say DT Swiss RR411 and the new Open Pro would the fact that the DT is asymmetric be the deciding factor?
Is more equalised spoke tension a reliability of longevity issue?

deadlegs

Cheers MrB123, RR411 would make a light wheelset. I'm looking for something wider than 22mm. Also can a 21mm depth wheel be stiff enough to avoid brake rub when hammering out the saddle? I know it's about spokes & tension too, 21mm looks tiny & flimsy.

step83

Chaps, looking at building a lightish wheelset with some Archtypes still debating shiny shiny mirror finish or black.
Hub wise I'm eyeing up some Novatec A291SB and F482SB for the rear. Should they be OK or are there better lightweight hubs about?

apreading

Step83 wrote:

Chaps, looking at building a lightish wheelset with some Archtypes still debating shiny shiny mirror finish or black.
Hub wise I'm eyeing up some Novatec A291SB and F482SB for the rear. Should they be OK or are there better lightweight hubs about?

Just to add to your woes - I actually like the hard anodised grey:

pblakeney

Depends on the bike they are to go on but the shiny shiny ones are as shiny shiny as a very shiny thing.

step83

apreading wrote:

Just to add to your woes - I actually like the hard anodised grey:

Dammit!

PBlakeney wrote:

Depends on the bike they are to go on but the shiny shiny ones are as shiny shiny as a very shiny thing.

The frameset in question



no stem etc so I can easily fit shiny to match.

pblakeney

I think probably the grey for that colour scheme.

Holmesy321

So after some good advice from Malcolm (thanks!) over email, I think I've narrowed my choice to a couple of his builds - but wanted to ask a couple of questions to the wider community here!

I'm looking for a build that can deal with some winter miles, and have decided on Primato hubs. I have these on my single speed and they've handled a good 2000 miles or so of daily commuting with aplomb, so I'm happy on that front.

My question pertains to rims... Specifically the Kinlin XR31T and XR22T.

In short, considering the weight is the same (ish - due to less spokes required on the deeper rim) and the aerodynamics is won by the 31mm build - where would the 31 mm build fall down vs the 22?

timothyw

It's slightly more expensive.

That's about it. It's basically better in everything except weight, and as you've said that can be negated by using a slightly lower spoke count.

cycleclinic

While I will sell someone a A291/F482 hubs with caveats about bearing life i do not list any builds with them. that should tell you something. I dont want the calls that say my bearing have failed and they did it was annoying. The only time i build with them is when some want a cheapish set of wheels for racing only. That is what they are for. We dont live somewhere warm and dry.

All the cheaper light weight hub from bitex (DCR) or novatec use small bearing. The front hubs are not the issue. the rear hub is. the bitex hub even though the rear DS bearing is smaller than the novatec is probably a more reliable hub in terms of bearing life but it is still short for me. Hubs like Mche maybe heavier but the bearings do ~10,000 miles some get more, of mixed weather riding (unless you pressure wash them or ride them only in the pouring rain which is like pressure washing) and are a doddle to change as hub is based on a free axle design rather than a captive bearing design as in the light weight hubs.

The other light weight hub that I have used is ridea but all these cheaper light weight hubs suffer in the wet. It is hard to avoid that. The bitex RAF/RAF12 i=on balance is probably the best of them though and that is the hub DCR use I think.

the easton rim is deep and not too heavy but so expensive which limits its appeal. Ignore the 10g difference in claimed weight. real rim weights are +/-20g so there is no difference in rim weight in reality.

The pressure limit on the mavic's is what is on the rim. I would not take it too seriously but head caution. the pressure limit of different tyres will be different because different beads stretch by differing ammounts. Therefore to be safe mavic set a lower pressure limit for the worst case senario tyre. Many tyres will hang onto the rim at higher pressure.

Still why people want to use tubes with the rim is beyond me.

The velocity quill looks like it is in the country again. It is 21 mm wide internally and medium depth. It has the same claimed weight as the HED rims but is £50 cheaper. I think I will try them.

timothyw

So, I've had the second spoke go on my cheap and cheerful rear wheel, I'm looking at a rebuild as the rim is still pretty unworn and hub seems fine.

As I'm looking at it today though, I notice that it has been built 2 cross, despite being 32 spoke.

My understanding is that because I'll be reusing the hub I'll need to match the lacing pattern of the previous build (and the grooves around the holes where the spokes have settled seem to bear this out!)

Is a 2 cross 32 spoke rear doomed to have poor spoke fatigue life, or is it still worth doing?

I mean, it's probably still worth doing whatever since the spokes are like £16 (and I'm doing the labour) whereas a new hub could easily be £30 plus, but still, any thoughts?

For those interested, the wheel was bought in near new condition, probably came off a specialized bike as stock, mavic CXP 22 rim, generic black hub and black straight gauge spokes.

ugo.santalucia

TimothyW wrote:

So, I've had the second spoke go on my cheap and cheerful rear wheel, I'm looking at a rebuild as the rim is still pretty unworn and hub seems fine.

As I'm looking at it today though, I notice that it has been built 2 cross, despite being 32 spoke.

My understanding is that because I'll be reusing the hub I'll need to match the lacing pattern of the previous build (and the grooves around the holes where the spokes have settled seem to bear this out!)

Is a 2 cross 32 spoke rear doomed to have poor spoke fatigue life, or is it still worth doing?

I mean, it's probably still worth doing whatever since the spokes are like £16 (and I'm doing the labour) whereas a new hub could easily be £30 plus, but still, any thoughts?

For those interested, the wheel was bought in near new condition, probably came off a specialized bike as stock, mavic CXP 22 rim, generic black hub and black straight gauge spokes.

2 cross is fine, unconventional, but I don't see it as a problem

roubaixmb

Holmesy321 wrote:

So after some good advice from Malcolm (thanks!) over email, I think I've narrowed my choice to a couple of his builds - but wanted to ask a couple of questions to the wider community here!

I'm looking for a build that can deal with some winter miles, and have decided on Primato hubs. I have these on my single speed and they've handled a good 2000 miles or so of daily commuting with aplomb, so I'm happy on that front.

My question pertains to rims... Specifically the Kinlin XR31T and XR22T.

In short, considering the weight is the same (ish - due to less spokes required on the deeper rim) and the aerodynamics is won by the 31mm build - where would the 31 mm build fall down vs the 22?

Get the 31s, bang a couple of Malcolm's IRCC tubeless on - get him to do it - you won't regret it.

bobones

ugo.santalucia wrote:

bobones wrote:

I've just noticed that Planet X are selling Selcof Olympico hubs for £45 a set (£15 front £30 rear). These appear to be rebadged Novatec A171/F172 with decent Japanese EZO bearings. I'm still looking at building a tubeless compatible wheelset for winter so do you think these hubs with DT Swiss R 460 rims and ACI 2.0/1.7/2.0 DB spokes would make a decent, cheap and cheerful combo or are they too unreliable in the wet? Would I be better splashing out on some more robust hubs such as DT Swiss 350s? I think a 28/28 build with the PX hubs and brass nipples would come in about 1670g for around £130 and the 350s at 24/28 would be around the same weight at about £250. I was considering the new Mavic Open Pro UST rims but they seem a bit too expensive to trash over the winter.

You are right on pretty much everything. Bearings are easy to replace on those hubs, so that shouldn't put you off buying them. Splines get chewed easily, again, choose your cassette wisely

Just a quick update. I did go ahead and buy the Selcof hubs from Planet X at £45 the pair and build up a set of wheels using DT Swiss R460s from R2-Bike.de and black ACI spokes from Cyclebasket. Came out at 1693 g so a bit more than calculated, but that was because the spokes were 6g each and a bit more than advertised on the ACI catalogue.

It was a really easy build, and I am very happy with the wheels. I paired them up with a set of Hutch Fusion 5 Performance tyres that were going cheap on Chain Reaction, and have had no problems although I've only done 115 miles so far.

The tyres were really easy to mount, but not so easy to inflate. I ended up using 3 layers of tape, but eventually got them up using my Screwfix garden sprayer as an inflation device. I think my main problem was that I didn't ensure that the valve was properly situated between the tyre beads the first few goes, but I had less trouble inflating tubeless tyres on non-tubeless rims than these, which was a surprise.

Actually, one issue I did have was that after a really wet 3 hour ride, I could feel some roughness on the front hub, so the seals are not all that great. I ended up removing the bearings then their rubber seals and adding bit more grease and have applied copious amounts of grease around the bearing seals to help reduce water ingress, but it remains to be seen how well they'll cope over the winter.

Anyway, I am happy that I've managed to build a nice set of tubeless wheels without spending too much cash on them.

cycleclinic

replace the bearings you may find they are not EZO even so they should last more than one ride. sometime you get a bad bearing i.e one with not enough grease in it and it never gets better.

I have the same trouble with setting up tubeless on the R460 rims. The fact you can put velox cloth tape on them and still mount clinchers with tubes without dificulty tells you something,

bobones

thecycleclinic wrote:

replace the bearings you may find they are not EZO even so they should last more than one ride. sometime you get a bad bearing i.e one with not enough grease in it and it never gets better.

I have the same trouble with setting up tubeless on the R460 rims. The fact you can put velox cloth tape on them and still mount clinchers with tubes without dificulty tells you something,

Yes, first thing I checked was to see if they were EZO, and they are. There wasn't a lot of grease in them, but I've added more and I'll keep an eye on them. I'll stick some SKFs in if they don't hold up.

Here they are on my winter bike (which needs a wash!):

darkhairedlord

bobones wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

replace the bearings you may find they are not EZO even so they should last more than one ride. sometime you get a bad bearing i.e one with not enough grease in it and it never gets better.

I have the same trouble with setting up tubeless on the R460 rims. The fact you can put velox cloth tape on them and still mount clinchers with tubes without dificulty tells you something,

Yes, first thing I checked was to see if they were EZO, and they are. There wasn't a lot of grease in them, but I've added more and I'll keep an eye on them. I'll stick some SKFs in if they don't hold up.

Here they are on my winter bike (which needs a wash!):

Saddle not level!

bobones

darkhairedlord wrote:

Saddle not level!

Indeed. Inexcusable. The spirit level will be out tonight!

Blpedersen

Hi all

Thought I'd just chime in on the discussion of the new Mavic OP UST, since I happen to be the lucky owner of the wheelset displayed on Malcolm's website.

First of all, the wheels are Mavic OP UST on Campy Record Hubs. Spokes are Sapim Laser 32F and Sapim Force 32R.

If tried Schwalbe Duranos and Conti GP4000s II on the wheels so far. The Schwalbe tires was almost impossible to mount and dismount. Moreover the wheels felt very slow with these tires. With the Conti tires the wheels feel perfect. I ride 700-23c tires, which measure 25,5mm on the rims, making them more of a 25mm tire. I run them at 90 psi and with my 90kg/200lbs rider weight that is more than enough - even on rough roads.

The wheels feel fast but easy to handle in crosswinds. I've ridden them with up to 23mph crosswinds and the wheels were more or less unaffected by the wind. A bit improvement on the 2009 Mavic CC SLR they replace. Speedwise I'm only a bit slower on the OP's than I am on the old high profile wheelset.

So all in all I can only give these rims by biggest recommendation and for those worried about the max pressure, I can tell that there is no reason to worry at all.

/Bjarne

cycleclinic

that because the durano is a high crr tyre relative to the conti which is the only characteristic of the conti tyre that it excels at. There are not many clinchers that are better really on the Crr front. The only thing that can beat it is tubeless tyres or putting latex tubes in your clinchers.

hypster

I just built a pair of Malcolm's Borg22 rims on Novatec A291SB SL (Front 20 radial) Novatec F482SB (Rear 24 2x) with Sapim Race spokes. Came out at 1515g (without rim tape or skewers) if anyone's interested. The rims were very true and built up and tensioned very easily without any appreciable join "hop".

bmxboy10

Blpedersen wrote:

Hi all

Thought I'd just chime in on the discussion of the new Mavic OP UST, since I happen to be the lucky owner of the wheelset displayed on Malcolm's website.

First of all, the wheels are Mavic OP UST on Campy Record Hubs. Spokes are Sapim Laser 32F and Sapim Force 32R.

If tried Schwalbe Duranos and Conti GP4000s II on the wheels so far. The Schwalbe tires was almost impossible to mount and dismount. Moreover the wheels felt very slow with these tires. With the Conti tires the wheels feel perfect. I ride 700-23c tires, which measure 25,5mm on the rims, making them more of a 25mm tire. I run them at 90 psi and with my 90kg/200lbs rider weight that is more than enough - even on rough roads.

The wheels feel fast but easy to handle in crosswinds. I've ridden them with up to 23mph crosswinds and the wheels were more or less unaffected by the wind. A bit improvement on the 2009 Mavic CC SLR they replace. Speedwise I'm only a bit slower on the OP's than I am on the old high profile wheelset.

So all in all I can only give these rims by biggest recommendation and for those worried about the max pressure, I can tell that there is no reason to worry at all.

/Bjarne

Any chance of some photos of the new OPs on the bike?

Blpedersen

solboy10 wrote:

Blpedersen wrote:

Hi all

Thought I'd just chime in on the discussion of the new Mavic OP UST, since I happen to be the lucky owner of the wheelset displayed on Malcolm's website.

First of all, the wheels are Mavic OP UST on Campy Record Hubs. Spokes are Sapim Laser 32F and Sapim Force 32R.

If tried Schwalbe Duranos and Conti GP4000s II on the wheels so far. The Schwalbe tires was almost impossible to mount and dismount. Moreover the wheels felt very slow with these tires. With the Conti tires the wheels feel perfect. I ride 700-23c tires, which measure 25,5mm on the rims, making them more of a 25mm tire. I run them at 90 psi and with my 90kg/200lbs rider weight that is more than enough - even on rough roads.

The wheels feel fast but easy to handle in crosswinds. I've ridden them with up to 23mph crosswinds and the wheels were more or less unaffected by the wind. A bit improvement on the 2009 Mavic CC SLR they replace. Speedwise I'm only a bit slower on the OP's than I am on the old high profile wheelset.

So all in all I can only give these rims by biggest recommendation and for those worried about the max pressure, I can tell that there is no reason to worry at all.

/Bjarne

Any chance of some photos of the new OPs on the bike?

Here you go. Still very happy with them. They are simply great for long, windy days.



Cheers

bmxboy10

Cheers!