Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

matt_n-2

Marin Maniac wrote:

Matt_N wrote:

Have you set a bit of toe in on the pads? That helps with squeaks.

I've not toed them in. Never toed pads before, and never suffered from brake squeal before on all my other other ally wheels. Whats the best way to do this? I vaguely recall a credit/business card trick?

Yeh I normally just use a piece of card under the rear edge of the pad to give it a slight toe in.

matt_n-2

Malcolm / Ugo - I'm looking to build a Powertap rear wheel.

It'll be based on a G3 hub, Archetype rim (as I already have a wheelset with these and would like it to match) but what spokes would you recommend for a PT build?

Thanks.

ugo.santalucia

Matt_N wrote:

Malcolm / Ugo - I'm looking to build a Powertap rear wheel.

It'll be based on a G3 hub, Archetype rim (as I already have a wheelset with these and would like it to match) but what spokes would you recommend for a PT build?

Thanks.

Like any other hub, I don't recall it being particulalry weird in geometry

torino

Flange diameter is big. If doing 3-cross, then the angles will be quite steep when entering the rim. Maybe these Pro Head nipples are a good idea. Or maybe just 2-cross with standard nipples.

For spokes, any good reason not to use DT Comp or Sapim Race?

ugo.santalucia

torino wrote:

Flange diameter is big. If doing 3-cross, then the angles will be quite steep when entering the rim. Maybe these Pro Head nipples are a good idea. Or maybe just 2-cross with standard nipples.

For spokes, any good reason not to use DT Comp or Sapim Race?

It's not that big, I've owned bigger hubs and certainly Alfine is a lot bigger. No problem at all with Archetype, they are drilled well

cycleclinic

id use sapim race and 2x for 28H or 3X for 32H. as ugo said the flange is not that large. If you want big get a rolloff.

bobones

I've just noticed that Planet X are selling Selcof Olympico hubs for £45 a set (£15 front £30 rear). These appear to be rebadged Novatec A171/F172 with decent Japanese EZO bearings. I'm still looking at building a tubeless compatible wheelset for winter so do you think these hubs with DT Swiss R 460 rims and ACI 2.0/1.7/2.0 DB spokes would make a decent, cheap and cheerful combo or are they too unreliable in the wet? Would I be better splashing out on some more robust hubs such as DT Swiss 350s? I think a 28/28 build with the PX hubs and brass nipples would come in about 1670g for around £130 and the 350s at 24/28 would be around the same weight at about £250. I was considering the new Mavic Open Pro UST rims but they seem a bit too expensive to trash over the winter.

ugo.santalucia

bobones wrote:

I've just noticed that Planet X are selling Selcof Olympico hubs for £45 a set (£15 front £30 rear). These appear to be rebadged Novatec A171/F172 with decent Japanese EZO bearings. I'm still looking at building a tubeless compatible wheelset for winter so do you think these hubs with DT Swiss R 460 rims and ACI 2.0/1.7/2.0 DB spokes would make a decent, cheap and cheerful combo or are they too unreliable in the wet? Would I be better splashing out on some more robust hubs such as DT Swiss 350s? I think a 28/28 build with the PX hubs and brass nipples would come in about 1670g for around £130 and the 350s at 24/28 would be around the same weight at about £250. I was considering the new Mavic Open Pro UST rims but they seem a bit too expensive to trash over the winter.

You are right on pretty much everything. Bearings are easy to replace on those hubs, so that shouldn't put you off buying them. Splines get chewed easily, again, choose your cassette wisely

mankybianchi

Rear fixed wheel on DT Swiss R460 and 75kg rider;

is there any reason not to go with sapim laser 28 or 32 rather than sapim race 28 or 32?

Thanks

timothyw

Depends if you use a rear brake or not.

If you use a rear brake, eventually the rim will wear out and at that time you'll probably want to replace the spokes - particularly if you're building with the skinnier spokes.

If you don't use a rear brake, then it's the spokes that will determine the lifespan of the wheel, so you might as well build with the stronger DT Competition spokes (especially if you eg skid stop which puts additional load on the spokes)

I mean, you might as well build with competition anyway - it's easier as there's less wind up, and you're only saving about 15g by using revolutions on the rear. Aerodynamic savings are pretty much zero.

So yeah, the reasons are strength and ease of build.

cycleclinic

it more like 30g but the point above still stands.

timothyw

thecycleclinic wrote:

it more like 30g but the point above still stands.

Ah, my mistake reading the headline weight from DT's site forgetting they have those odd 1.8mm-1.6mm-1.8mm dt competition spokes which they quote that weight from, despite them being as rare as hens teeth in the wild.

So yeah, could be as much as 50g saved. Still not really worth it IMHO.

ugo.santalucia

I disagree.

I fitted Sapim race to my rear single speed (32) and I regret it. It's overbuilt and feels harsher than my other wheels built with Sapim D-light. When a wheel is not dished, use the lightest spoke it makes sense to use. If you are worried about using laser, then use D-light.

The general rule is that the more the wheel is dished and the more the wheel is big, the higher the spoke count and the bigger the spokes... and viceversa.
You can build a solid Brompton wheel with 12 Laser spokes, but for a Penny Farthing you need 60 plain gauge

munkster

I've built with Revs (and D-Light on the DS) several times now (almost exclusively 24/28 F/R) and I've never had any problem with wind up. I'm not a professional builder clearly so I can probably take more time over it but I found that if I took the usual precautions there were no issues. The wheels that came out the other end were all very nice too, without even a hint of tinkling on first ride. Whether there's any other way that windup can manifest itself undetected (other than the wheel going horribly out of true immediately??) I don't know but that's the test I know about!

Alex99

beanstalk wrote:

g00se wrote:

Not meaning to sound flippant - but if you believe there is a market for these, then there is no reason to stop you commissioning Miche to make them.

Yeah, I imagine they would jump to it when a guy like me with no contacts, no business orders a 100 modified hubs.

g00se wrote:

I'm sure Malcolm and other builders would buy them from you if they have customers that want them.

I'm really not sure that this business works that way.

I know where you're coming from, but it seems to me like you have a solution just by taking a standard Shimano hub and putting a 7s freehub body on it and re-spacing. Easy enough, right? Isn't the bigger issue getting nice quality 7s cassettes? Do you use friction shifters?

TBH, on one of my wheels (Dura Ace 7700 rear hub with offset rim) with 9s, the dish is pretty small.

ugo.santalucia

munkster wrote:

I've built with Revs (and D-Light on the DS) several times now (almost exclusively 24/28 F/R) and I've never had any problem with wind up. I'm not a professional builder clearly so I can probably take more time over it but I found that if I took the usual precautions there were no issues. The wheels that came out the other end were all very nice too, without even a hint of tinkling on first ride. Whether there's any other way that windup can manifest itself undetected (other than the wheel going horribly out of true immediately??) I don't know but that's the test I know about!

WIndup is not an issue if you know how to tighten a tiny spoke... tighten half a turn and a bit more, then back off the bit more... never had an issue with 1.5 mm gauge either. I don't use them for dished rear wheels for stiffness reasons, but there are cases when they are absolutely fine...
I like D-Light a lot these days... they seem to be the best of both worlds

Alex99

beanstalk wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

As I do a lot of 24 spoke rear wheels and triplet lacing pattern (16:8) is good for tubeless tyres given a big tension drop (although I do wonder if the new Mavic OP rims addresses this issue). Triplet lacing overcomes this due to the high NDS tension to begin with. I also wont have to tension the DS spokes up to the very limit the rim can tolerate which must be helpful. However there are no triplet hubs available aftermarket that are any good. Bitex do one but it is a standard hub and the geometry is all wrong for triplet lacing. Miche used to make one but it was straight pull only.

Will the drillings on the NDS flange be optimised/spaced apart for 1x lacing?

thecycleclinic wrote:

The flanges will be standard J-bend with standard spoke holes. The flange spacing for the rear centre to middle of hub will be 17mm DS and 49mm NDS. That will give a tension balance of 70% and with an offset Kinlin rim 87% is possible.

Has it ever occurred to you (or anyone in your position) to produce a hub with a short 7speed-like freehub body?
I ride 7speed hubs modified/spaced up to 130mm for quite a while in the pleasing knowledge that my NDS spokes are high tensioned too and not nearly slack. I have 9 sprockets out of a 10speed cassette on that freehub body (does anyone need more?).
It also gives you more options in spoke numbers to fit the range from the lightweight rider to the heavy load tourer.



btw: I second the steel freehub body.

What's the deal with the XT hub here? Are you lacing a 135 mm 36 hole hub 2/3 to a 24 h rim? Are you re-spacing this to 130 mm? The aim...? No /low dish 24 spoke road wheel?

cycleclinic

I never thought I would hear it ugo advocating using lasers. Good thing I am sitting down when I read this. I need a cup of tea and a slice of cake now to recover. It does not take much.

mankybianchi

TimothyW wrote:

Depends if you use a rear brake or not.

If you use a rear brake, eventually the rim will wear out and at that time you'll probably want to replace the spokes - particularly if you're building with the skinnier spokes.

If you don't use a rear brake, then it's the spokes that will determine the lifespan of the wheel, so you might as well build with the stronger DT Competition spokes (especially if you eg skid stop which puts additional load on the spokes)

I'm way too old to be doing all that skidding stuff – I'm happy to use a rear brake.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I fitted Sapim race to my rear single speed (32) and I regret it. It's overbuilt and feels harsher than my other wheels built with Sapim D-light. When a wheel is not dished, use the lightest spoke it makes sense to use. If you are worried about using laser, then use D-light.

Aah, okay. I'm happy to go with Lasers; this is why I asked for the advice of seasoned builders in the first place. D-light seem to be almost twice the price interestingly.

cycleclinic

Lasers/revs work on rear wheels I have done many but the main reason why I shy away is building with lasers on a rear wheels is that it takes longer. I have many wheels I really cant tell the difference in ride quality between wheels with laser and race spokes.

mankybianchi

thecycleclinic wrote:

Lasers/revs work on rear wheels I have done many but the main reason why I shy away is building with lasers on a rear wheels is that it takes longer. I have many wheels I really cant tell the difference in ride quality between wheels with laser and race spokes.

Time isn't a big factor as I'm only building for myself but I can understand why in your position it is an issue.

As a layman I have to say there is a mystery surrounding wheel builds.What with number of spokes and gauge of spokes – what decides 24/28 is a better combo than 28/32; when Lasers are better than Race spokes. I'm sure after building a few combinations things become clearer but I have only built around 4 wheels over the years, all 32 spoked so I basically know nothing.

cycleclinic

Wheels stiffness (radial and lateral guides everything. the larger the load the stiffer the wheel needs to be. That can be achieved by stiffer rims, more spokes, thicker spokes and hubs with better bracing angles (although the latter does not affect radial or torsional stiffness).

So with shallower rims more spokes and stiffer spokes are needed. With deeper stiffer rims fewer spokes and thinner spokes can be used.

Wheels which are evenly dished are generally stiffer. Take a track hub the flange spacing is normally around 64mm to 68mm compared to a geared hub with spacing of 54mm. So the track/fixe wheel is stiffer and therefore fewer spokes and thinner spokes.

So track/single speed wheels dont need to be high spoke count.

There is no mystery. it is all obvious.

munkster

Complete left-field Q - anyone know if Shimano are planning to bring out 9100 versions of their hubs for hand-building? The 9000s are obviously very nice as it is, just wondered if there was an updated version on the way?

cycleclinic

not that I know off. If there is one it will be at eurobike. There is nothing on the madison website and usually if there is a new hub it will appear there long before the show.

torino

Am I fine with Velox 22mm on DT R460 rims? Or is it just better to go tubeless tape, even though I'll run with tubes?

ugo.santalucia

torino wrote:

Am I fine with Velox 22mm on DT R460 rims? Or is it just better to go tubeless tape, even though I'll run with tubes?

RIms with a channel always best with tubeless tape. Other tapes tend to wrinkle and occasionally fold and cause troubles

timothyw

I've used this with an r460 recently:
https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/sch ... e-28-26655

A nice match, although in fairness I haven't done that many miles on the wheel yet.

Interestingly, that rim tape is quoted as good to 120psi whereas a superficially identical tape I bought elsewhere has 100psi written on it instead.

apreading

I used to use Velox on everything but have found that tubeless ready tyres especially on tubeless ready rims can be really hard to get on. To the point where it took me as much as an hour once to get a tyre on a Stans Crest rim, with two broken tyre levers. I tried some Stans tubeless rim tape and its so much easier now. The tape is thinner than the velox and the tyre moves around on it easier - so much easier to get it into the center channel and the circumference is slightly smaller once there so easier to get the last bit of the tyre on the rim. Other rim tape that doesnt stick to the rim is even worse then Velox because under the load required to get tyres on sometimes the rim tape slides around and a bit ends up sticking out the side. Its not cheap but I have sworn to always use tubeless rim tape now, regardless of whether I am running tubes.

torino

Thanks! Will get some tubeless tape then. I've fit Velox 22 but then realized the gap between tape and rim hook was so small that the tire bead would be hard to fit.

This looks like a good value:

https://www.bike-components.de/de/bc/Kl ... nd-p55090/

ugo.santalucia

torino wrote:

Thanks! Will get some tubeless tape then. I've fit Velox 22 but then realized the gap between tape and rim hook was so small that the tire bead would be hard to fit.

This looks like a good value:

https://www.bike-components.de/de/bc/Kl ... nd-p55090/

Do you save by ordering small stuff from Germany?

I've tried alternatives, but keep coming back to Stans