Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

cycleclinic

25mm tyres all vary in bead to bead distance. The open pro is a 19mm internal width rim so the GP4000sII tyre will be 28mm like on other 19mm internal width rims.

If I had my way the nominal width would be banned and the bead to bead distance would be the only legal tyre width that could be advertised.

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... p?t=148458

Therefore stop thinking your contis are 215's they are not. not even close.

wavefront

Hi All, I’m hoping you wheel guys can offer some opinion on a new set of handbuilt wheels.

I seem to go through wheelsets too quickly, but I do ride about 13-14k (kms) a year in all weathers.

I work around 3 wheel sets. I have a set of Wheelsmith carbon 50mm’s which I use for some RR’s but mostly TT’s or mid summers day rides. A set of Dura-ace C35’s which I use for club rides, hillier RR’s or when I feel it’s just a nice day to get them out. Then I use Aksiums for all my other training rides, My philosophy is keep the nicer wheels for the nicer days, and let the Aksiums get trashed through the winter – so far a set of these only last me the year. My bikes are slightly older so wheel clearance is an issue, I get rub with some 25mm’s. I’m light at 63kg.

So, now my C35’s have worn through the rim, I want some handbuilts to replace them. I don’t mind if they’re carbon or ally, but I’d like them to have similar characteristics as the c35’s. Weight around 1400-1500g, Ideally 30-40mm rim section, have buttery smooth hubs, and of course look good!

I’ve been looking at Wheelsmith Race 30’s 20/24 with DTS240s. with 30mm ally section comes in around 1500g

But wondered about :

Mavic Open Pro Exalith 24/28 with DTS240’s. Comes in 1425g. Could be tempted by going tubeless too. I hate the look of the regular Open Pro’s so with a black brake track I’d be happier!
Hunt Race Aero 31 Deep come in at 1487g. Could consider ‘factory’ wheel like this as it looks like they sell replacement rims at an economic price.

Any thoughts would be very welcome! Thanks.

cycleclinic

Mavic open exalith does not exist and it wont till late 2018 maybe 2019. I forget how many times I have repeated what mavic sales have told me.

Looking at the wheel Smith website., the race 30 is 1530g with there295g hubs. The 240's are 20g heavier so weight should be 1550g.

Why the 240's I think they are over priced for what you get. A 315g hubset with a soft alloy freehub bad rear geometry. There are lighter hub sets which are reliable, there are £400 hub sets with titanium freehub bodies and there are quieter ones. Dt swiss disc brake hubs are pretty good but there road hub are not that special. For example when the DS rear bearing needs changing that can be a ball ache. At least with the disc brake hubs that's the only downside, with the road hubs you have sub optimal geometry as well. It's up to you though.

Kinlin do a similar rim the xr31t/rt in 18h front to allow the use of dura ace 9000 hubs, simple service construction and a ti freehub body. A 18f24r set with these hubs and cx ray spokes will be about 1560g. You get an asymmetric rear rim, a ti freehub and the hubs if serviced can achieve silly mileages.

If it where me I have those in fact for tarty wheels I would have carbon ti hubs because they are really light but those remind you to keep pedalling as the freehub is loud. White industries hubs are pretty good too. 30g heavier than the 240s, they have a ti freehub body and the bearings are easy to access.

I would focus less on weight than you are. There is more to a wheelset than weight. For example the hunt wheelset uses a hub that cannot give the same bearing that the 240s do. Rear hub geometry on the novatec hubs that hunt use is better meaning a stiffer wheel and the freehub uses a steel spline to limit cassette notching. The hunt aero 31 rim is the kinlin xr31t.

svetty

[quote="thecycleclinic"Kinlin do a similar rim the xr31t/rt in 18h front to allow the use of dura ace 9000 hubs, simple service construction and a ti freehub body. A 18f24r set with these hubs and cx ray spokes will be about 1560g. You get an asymmetric rear rim, a ti freehub and the hubs if serviced can achieve silly mileages. [/quote]

Assuming the Kinlin can be built onto the DA hubs, what spokes should be used and is it easy to calculate the lengths?

cycleclinic

270mm front and 278/280mm rear. You can use any spoke. I like sapim but the equivalent from dt swiss would be fine. Pillar 1422 spokes could be a hood choice as well. For sapim Cx rays all round or lasers front race rear as I dont like building with lasers on the rear due to twist which can be managed easily enough but it adds time. The few of these wheels I have done have been built with sapim cx rays front and cx force rear.

wavefront

Thanks so much for the reply on this, really helpful. I'll give you a call when I'm back on my feet

thecycleclinic wrote:

Mavic open exalith does not exist and it wont till late 2018 maybe 2019. I forget how many times I have repeated what mavic sales have told me.

So that rules out that one for the time being

thecycleclinic wrote:

Looking at the wheel Smith website., the race 30 is 1530g with there295g hubs. The 240's are 20g heavier so weight should be 1550g.

Why the 240's I think they are over priced for what you get. A 315g hubset with a soft alloy freehub bad rear geometry. There are lighter hub sets which are reliable, there are £400 hub sets with titanium freehub bodies and there are quieter ones. Dt swiss disc brake hubs are pretty good but there road hub are not that special. For example when the DS rear bearing needs changing that can be a ball ache. At least with the disc brake hubs that's the only downside, with the road hubs you have sub optimal geometry as well. It's up to you though.

I had the DT's specced on my carbons, so was sticking with them out of ignorance really. Never had to work on them, in fact ALL my wheels fail through rim wear, and I've never had to work on the hubs so didn't realise it was an issue as such.

thecycleclinic wrote:

Kinlin do a similar rim the xr31t/rt in 18h front to allow the use of dura ace 9000 hubs, simple service construction and a ti freehub body. A 18f24r set with these hubs and cx ray spokes will be about 1560g. You get an asymmetric rear rim, a ti freehub and the hubs if serviced can achieve silly mileages.

If it where me I have those in fact for tarty wheels I would have carbon ti hubs because they are really light but those remind you to keep pedalling as the freehub is loud. White industries hubs are pretty good too. 30g heavier than the 240s, they have a ti freehub body and the bearings are easy to access.

I would focus less on weight than you are. There is more to a wheelset than weight. For example the hunt wheelset uses a hub that cannot give the same bearing that the 240s do. Rear hub geometry on the novatec hubs that hunt use is better meaning a stiffer wheel and the freehub uses a steel spline to limit cassette notching. The hunt aero 31 rim is the kinlin xr31t.

I like the sound of a mega stiff rear wheel as I could detect some flex on my Dura Ace wheels. Weight was a ballpark, I'm actually not focussed on weight. Kinda intruiged now by your suggestions of a 18f24r set on Kinlins on Dura Ace.

thecycleclinic wrote:

If it where me I have those in fact for tarty wheels I would have carbon ti hubs because they are really light

Didn't understand this bit, sorry.... Are you suggesting going for Carbon rims, TI hubs? You mean the Kinlin XR31t/RT + Dura Ace hubs?

Thanks!

mrb123

Carbon Ti are a brand of hub that Malcolm builds with. Have a look on his website.

cycleclinic

I dont think dt swiss hubs are rubbish, I just don't like there downsides. Others can cope with them just fine. Just buy with your eyes open. I am fairly certain Derek's also offers other hubs which would be worth looking at.

cycleclinic

Feeling wheel flex when riding- I am not sure about that. It would have to be staggeringly floppy wheel to be noticeable and no doubt how stiff the frame is plays a part in what we notice too. But some wheels do exhit flex. One of the worst I have seen is a rear DT swiss RR585 (30mm deep 20mm wide and 585g) rim on and Ammerican classic hub 32 psoke as well with sapim race and the wheel flexed under a 60kg youth rider. I could tell it flexed given how out of true it was. The flange spacing on that rear hub is even worse than the DT swiss road hub. however when riding the rider never noticed flex but it did or it would have stayed straight than it did.

bondurant

Kinlin rims...would anyone happen to know if they have wear indicators, and if so where?

Tim F

I'm a light rider, who's just picked up a Colnage C-RS fitted with Shimano WH-RS010. I know these are really basic! Looking for some wheels around 1400 gram range in the £300 to £400 category, can spend more if required. What's the general opinion on areo rims versus normal now the weights have come down a bit? Are any budget carbon fibre rims worth bothering with? I'm semi obsessed with weight so want something light

Thanks all, Tim

cycleclinic

start with the mavic open pro ust rim or the Kinlin ZR22T rim for a light build and it will have to be novatec A291/F482 or the Bitex RAF/RAR12 hubs. The bitex hubs are better in some ways.

Wear indicators on kinlin rims are absent and not needed. You can spot a concave rim. When concave stop riding them. wall thickness has to be greater than 1mm. You can measure that. better than a wear indicator. Kinlin charge 50 cents per rim for a wear indicator. Over 1000 rims that 500USD and it does not increase the sale price. So there you the reason why they are not bought that way.

bobones

Tim F wrote:

I'm a light rider, who's just picked up a Colnage C-RS fitted with Shimano WH-RS010. I know these are really basic! Looking for some wheels around 1400 gram range in the £300 to £400 category, can spend more if required. What's the general opinion on areo rims versus normal now the weights have come down a bit? Are any budget carbon fibre rims worth bothering with? I'm semi obsessed with weight so want something light

Thanks all, Tim

I think you need to go to at least 40-50 deep with U shaped rim to get meaningful aero benefits and not be unduly affected by crosswinds so that rules out light aluminium rims. Carbon is going to be a lot more than £300-400 for something light, but the aero benefit totally dominates weight in most scenarios so you don't need the absolute lightest. £500-700 might get you carbon hoops in the 1500g range if you shop around.

In alu, you can get something around the 30mm mark at 1400g for £300-400 quite easily, but I would doubt their aero credentials at those shallow depths. Cero AR30 and Hunt Race Aero Wide fit the bill and most wheelbuilders can match the specs of these wheels. http://slowbuild.eu seems to have a lot of lightweight options for not a lot of money.

jolmes

Looking for some handbuilt wheels on C2W, the LBS I can get them from deals with most suppliers, however he mentioned H+ and Panceti rims, CK/Hope/DT Swiss hubs and countless brands of spokes.

I have some hope hubs on open pro's from Wheelsmiths, which are on the winter bike and will stay there, currently have Zondas on the Domane but they are well past it now and only used on the turbo.

Got a budget of £600 for the summer wheels

Riding - Sportives and longer rides (60-100 miles around Yorkshire)
Weight - 80kg riding a Domane

Any ideas from the Hive mind?

cycleclinic

Given you have £600 to spen and CK hubs have a RRP of £610the chance of you getting anything but CK hubs and some spokes and maybe a rim is slim.
Also the cycle to work scheme is meant to be for bikes not parts. Buying wheels this way undermines the scheme and that when governments changes the rule not in our favour.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... idance.pdf

Buying wheels this way to me is a tax dodge and given they are your summer wheels will not see much commuting.

If I am wrong on the rules I apologise but this is my understanding.

jolmes

Apologies but you are incorrect about a few things.

Wheelsets are completely fine on the C2W scheme, both the LBS and Halfords customer care line have confirmed this . Things like frames, forks and groupsets are not allowed, likewise with turbo trainers and cycle computers/sat navs etc. I wouldn't have posted the above if it was a tax dodge or not allowed.

The budget is flexible up to £1000, £600ish just seems a reasonable price.

They will see plenty of commuting miles as in summer and nicer weather I turn my 2 mile commute into a 20-30 mile "commute" on the summer bike.

buckmulligan

Hi, not sure if this is the best place to ask, but looking for some advice regarding a singlespeed hub-set for my commuting bike.

My current wheels are shot, both the rims and hubs are past their best, so I'm thinking I'll just build a whole new wheel-set with a pair of Mavic CXP22 rims that I have lying around. Being a commuting bike, it often sits in the rain all day, rarely gets cleaned, could get stolen but must work faultlessly at all times!

Does anyone have any recommendations for cheap, durable fixed/singlespeed hubs?

term1te

I've got the itch to build some more wheels, this time for the CX bike. I currently have some Vision Team 30 disc wheels, which roll nicely, and have stayed true after a fair bit of abuse, but I'm sure I can save some weight, and have the satisfaction of building them myself. Any recommendations for rims, ideally tubeless compatible, and hubs? I'll be using disc brakes and don't want to spend much more than £200. Is it possible to build anything better than the current Vision wheelset for that money, or will I need to save for a bit longer to be able to build a better wheelset?

cycleclinic

@buckmulligan Miche make good single speed hubs, then there zenith or Novatec. tbh most of them are decent if bearing life is short just change the cartridge bearings for decent ones. all the after market hubs i can think off all have cartridge bearings. a single speed hub is a forged/machined shell with a couple of cartridge bearings pressed in. There is not much to go wrong here.

@term1te £200 means cheaper hubs like shimano RS505 but they are QR only and fairly heavy. DT swiss R460 rims or kinlin XR 22T and silver sapim race or maybe ACI spokes come in on budget I suppose but they wont be lighter.

If you want to save weight you'll need lighter hubs that come in lower drillings like the Bitex B106F/R.

@jolmes now that is odd about the c2W scheme because it is at odds with what I have read on the HMRC website. the guidlines may however be suitably vauge allowing for interpretation. that said a budget of £600 can get gobbled up by hubs and it not like spending alot of money on hubs by better hubs in many repsects than a cheaper set of miche hubs. even the bitex RAF/RAR12 are not bad and for summer use, they are quite good in fact at being light pretty reliable hubs. As for rims pretty all of the wide options these days are pretty good so you pick what ever you like the look of the most. The wide 30mm deep rims are fine for 24 spoke rears where as the shallower rims are best done in 24F/28R to retain high lateral stiffness. Look at Kinlin XR22T, XR26T or XR31T, Pacenti forza , Mavic open pro ust or Velocity quill rims. Thats the pick of the bunch. Also HED belgium+ now these are the best looking rims on the planet.

timothyw

As an aside, is there anywhere you can buy Miche hubs individually (or is this something you are able to introduce Malcolm)?

I'd be very happy to give them a go but it rarely makes sense for me to buy a set.

cycleclinic

I buy them OEM in pairs so the problem with selling them individually is them is I have to buy 25 of one drilling at a time and that means I will have lots of hubs which i cant match up in pairs and that means dead stock in terms of wheel building.

It is not economically viable otherwise I would already be doing it.

also people normally build pairs of wheels. I hate mismatched wheels in my bikes surely everyone is the same?

timothyw

I build according to need most of the time - I break a rear wheel, I build a rear wheel.

I mean, it's nice to have a matched set, but on the commuter I couldn't really care less if the wheels don't match - and people are well accustomed to seeing 'unmatched' wheelsets on bikes - plenty of commercial sets have different spoke counts, lacing, rim depth etc.

Does the OEM only sell in pairs then? Might be worth suggesting they reconsider that policy.

I tend to build 32/28, 32/24 or 36/28 which alas aren't accommodated by Miche. I can use the odd 32 spoke front but there's only so many touring wheels I need....

jolmes

Thanks for your reply @thecycleclinic. The LBS i'm using have suggested getting Panceti Forza rims, on hope hubs @ my request accompanied with DT comp spokes. Coming in at around £570, they did offer H Plus & Son rims but almost all the reviews I've read tent to lean slightly more towards the Forza rims, i did originally want the H Plus & Son aesthetically but advise from others wins against looks.

You are hugely right about those HED belgium+ rims, might see if they have those available at a push.

cycleclinic

Hed rim on miche hubs would be a similar price. Given miche hubs are just as reliable as hope it begs the question why spend hope money on hopes. Forza rims are tubeless only. Many clinchers with tubes are a very tight fit.

If I sold miche hubs individually ( I have tried) I end up with more front than rears after a short while . I then have to buy hubs in smaller numbers at a higher price to make up pairs again which is what I use. It makes no economic sense for me. The gain in sales is offset by money list elsewhere. I end up short of pairs of hubs for wheel building which is why I buy them in the first place. I don't buy the hubs to sell them in the wheels. What I sell outside wheels is small in comparison. other hub brands are priced to be sold individually, that's the difference but that makes them more expensive than they would be if sold the same way as do with the miche hubs. Just because people want it does not mean it makes business sense to do it. I do things there is a business case for and that make me money. Oddly enough that does not mean doing what everyone else thinks I should do.

A good case I stopped at a garage in Wrexham today ( I know I drove!) and asked for new wipers. The first set that turned up was incorrect, not there fault so I had to come back later when a new set turned up. They charged me cost of parts because I was inconvenienced which was a mistake. I saw the price they paid they should have charged me £60 and would have paid it. A business that does jobs for no profit or does activities just for the convenience of customers but that harms the business is forgetting why the business exists - to make money. Unless it can do that it can't offer a service. So no miche hubs will not be offered individually as it makes no sense for my business.

boblo

@TimothyW. Buy a pair and keep the unused one in stock until you need it n'est pas?

beanstalk

thecycleclinic wrote:

Given miche hubs are just as reliable as hope it begs the question why spend hope money on hopes.

I would spend it because of the bigger flanges and the availability of steel free-hub bodies for the Hope RS4.

ugo.santalucia

beanstalk wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

Given miche hubs are just as reliable as hope it begs the question why spend hope money on hopes.

I would spend it because of the bigger flanges and the availability of steel free-hub bodies for the Hope RS4.

The latest generation of Hope freehubs are simply amazing. Steel splines (optional), very low engagement angle, which does nothing to your FTP but feels great when pedalling. Great tight seal which is very effective to keep the weather out. Add the tool free servicing and the high quality bearings and I believe they are very good value for money.
Typically they are 10% off online, add another 10% you can get via British Cycling on CRC and you can get your hands on a pair for 160 quid or so.
Yes, Miche are half that price and they are good and durable and all of that... but Hope are better.

There is also an argument about spare parts...you can order any spare part for a Hope hub, with Miche you are bound to the Cycleclinic if you want a spare preload red collar (yes, occasionally they do break), freehub, axle or whatnot.
The day Malcolm decides to become a farmer or to stock Kinlin hubs instead you are left with a product that has zero support in the UK.

Moral, if your budget is tight, by all means Miche are very good hubs, but if you can afford them, then get a pair of Hope!

cycleclinic

Kinlins are also brought in by JD whiskers so I am not the only one. Chicken cycle kit stock miche spares too including axles and freehubs so i am not the only one. they dont have the ratchet rings in stock but can order them. the chances of me becoming a farmer are nill.

The hope hubs may have larger flanges but for rim brake hubs this is meaningless. there is a slight improvement reduction in tension changes caused by torque about 15% but since the tension changes caused by pedalling torque are small unless your chris hoy in his prime this is somewhat meaningless. the bracing angle change is in the second or third decimal point. thats not even a marginal gain. also the NDS flange on the hope hub is further in board at 35mm from centre vs 39mm for the miche hub. This means while the hope hub has better tension balance the miche hub builds into a latterally stiffer wheel. tension balance is meaningless (I have been testing wheels with very low tension balance and they are nothing but reliable) as improving it comes at the expense of lateral stiffness then you have made a compromise. spoke life is essentially the same with both hubs should be the same but the miche hub should result in a latterally stiffer wheel.

The steel freehub thing is over done. tighten your lockrings to 45Nm and the notching thing mostly goes away. with miche steel sprockets on a miche freehub done this way on my race bike there was no notching. i raced this bike alot with this cassette and that means alot of high power sprinting. so if i can avoid it others can too. Most if not all the freehubs that i see that are nothced badly, the cassette lockring was loose or not very tight - there is a pattern here.

The miche freehub mechanism is the same as that used by campagnolo on there hubs. i.e its fine. the hope one is nice but is more expensive. so which hub you pick should depend on which characteristics you prioritise. you can see which one's i prioritise.

If everyone used the correct freehub -campagnolo there would be no notching issue but since most want fishing gear drivetrains, what can you do

beanstalk

thecycleclinic wrote:

tension balance is meaningless (I have been testing wheels with very low tension balance and they are nothing but reliable)

What you are saying is that you have succeeded to work around the poor tension balance of your wheels as one has to do with todays hubs.
That doesn't mean tension balance is meaningless, it's quite the opposite.

nill

I’m looking at building my first set of wheels to replace the ones on my old town bike and could use some advice about parts. Because of the age of the bike the spec is a little dated; it has v-brakes, 700c wheels that can take 40mm tyres, a 3x7 drivetrain, 135mm spacing at the back and QRs rather than thru axles. It weighs close to 14kg and I add another 74 – 75kg to that. It mostly gets used for commuting and shopping trips, is more likely to see bad weather than good and has to cope with pretty poor road conditions.

I’ve settled on using Mavic A119 rims and Sapim Race spokes, though I’d happily take suggestions if there are better options, but I’m having trouble figuring out what hubs to get. Shimano Deore LX and XT come in the right width and price point but I’m wondering if I’d be better off getting a set of 32H Miche or Novatech road hubs and adding spacers and a larger axle at the back. I may end up repurposing the hubs for my road bike so there’s a side benefit to using a 130mm rear hub, but I don’t know if this will make my first attempt more difficult.

This is obviously a budget build, coming in at roughly £150, and I’m realistic about the compromises that entails. Durability and serviceability matter more to me than performance or saving weight, but I’d consider spending a bit more if it led to better value for money. At the moment I’m experiencing horrible decision fatigue looking at all the options available and it’s making it less likely that I’ll get started in the near future.

Also happy to hear your thoughts on the best nipple driver and spoke key. I have the Musson book and plan on building my own truing stand.

Thanks!