Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Barrington12

Thanks for the replies, good info. Have always used DT Swiss or Sapim previously but I’ve now ordered the ACI spokes, will see how it works out.

munkster

Anyone seen any news on the Mavic Open Pro Exalith rims yet?

Beatmaker

munkster wrote:

Anyone seen any news on the Mavic Open Pro Exalith rims yet?

I heard (on either Weight weenies or Velocipede Salon) these had been delayed due to product issues, but Strada are showing 10 in stock, might be worth contacting them.

munkster

Cheers. I think it's been showing 10 in stock since it got listed, presumably because they are taking pre-orders for wheel builds using them? Will go digging to find the info you are referring to, maybe worth waiting until they've been out a little while perhaps!

cycleclinic

When I talked to mavic recently they said there are no exalith until late 2018. What is in stock at strada is the pre-order. they have 10 rims that can be preordered if I read there page right.

The mavic disc brake rim has arrived though.

nachetetm

I've found some lovely second hand silver Campy Record hubs (the ones with the oil ports) that are going to be laced to a silver tubeless rim, I just need to decide which one. Options are The Ambrosio P20 or the Halo Evaura (I am quite sure this is a rebranded Kinlin XR22T). Pacenti is now making the Brevet in 700c and I think it would be a nice alternative but it isn't available yet. What do you think will be the better rim for this built? Thanks!

kingstonian

Am looking to replace the wheels on my CAADX. Currently use the bike for commuting, so it gets a lot of use and I need a wheelset that will quite happily handle a day in day out hammering, and I’m considering going tubeless too. Don’t particularly want to spend more than £350 to £400. Any suggestions?

mrb123

Kingstonian wrote:

Am looking to replace the wheels on my CAADX. Currently use the bike for commuting, so it gets a lot of use and I need a wheelset that will quite happily handle a day in day out hammering, and I’m considering going tubeless too. Don’t particularly want to spend more than £350 to £400. Any suggestions?

Would probably suggest something from Malcolm at the Cycle Clinic using Miche hubs. He's got 10% off wheels at the moment with a discount code so a good time to buy.

For example
https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collection ... t-and-rear

kingstonian

MrB123 wrote:

Kingstonian wrote:

Am looking to replace the wheels on my CAADX. Currently use the bike for commuting, so it gets a lot of use and I need a wheelset that will quite happily handle a day in day out hammering, and I’m considering going tubeless too. Don’t particularly want to spend more than £350 to £400. Any suggestions?

Would probably suggest something from Malcolm at the Cycle Clinic using Miche hubs. He's got 10% off wheels at the moment with a discount code so a good time to buy.

For example
https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collection ... t-and-rear

Thanks, will take a look.

Open to any other suggestions too !!!

cycleclinic

I have just looked up the halo rim and it is the kinlin xr22t so that is a fine choice.

The ambrosia rim is also a good choice and is stiffer.

Dont hold your breath on the brevet 700c. There is always the archetype rim as well.

For the caddex the kinlin tubless rims are good choice and I can't find anything I dont like about them. They are the sensible choice got a tubeless compatible rim. Others tend to be more expensive but don't offer additional practical benefits. If

nachetetm

thecycleclinic wrote:

I have just looked up the halo rim and it is the kinlin xr22t so that is a fine choice.

The ambrosia rim is also a good choice and is stiffer.

Dont hold your breath on the brevet 700c. There is always the archetype rim as well.

For the caddex the kinlin tubless rims are good choice and I can't find anything I dont like about them. They are the sensible choice got a tubeless compatible rim. Others tend to be more expensive but don't offer additional practical benefits. If

Thanks for the useful info, I think I will go for the Halo/Kinlin. The tubeless ability of the Archetype is confusing and while the P20 looks very promising, I wrote to Ambrosio Italy asking some info about them and they literally told me that they don't have any rim called P20, not even in the 2018 catalog. Something really weird is going with these P20 and I rather go with the more proven Kinlins.

cycleclinic

Rsi cycles own the ambrosia trade mark in the UK so they brand the rims ambrosia but they are made in taiwan. Ambrosia have nothing to do with this rim. The same goes for ambrosia hubs they are made by novatec are rebadged std models a291/f482 sb sl or A171, /f172 sb.

I have build up a couple of sets of the o20 rims 20f24r and they are fine. Very easy to set up tubekess as well.

The tubeless compatability of the archetype is not confusing. It is not tubekess comparable. The tyre won't look into the rim so if you loose all air pressure you are stuck.

nachetetm

thecycleclinic wrote:

Rsi cycles own the ambrosia trade mark in the UK so they brand the rims ambrosia but they are made in taiwan. Ambrosia have nothing to do with this rim. The same goes for ambrosia hubs they are made by novatec are rebadged std models a291/f482 sb sl or A171, /f172 sb.

I have build up a couple of sets of the o20 rims 20f24r and they are fine. Very easy to set up tubekess as well.

Thanks again for the info. It's a bit extrange situation, as it seems that Rsi cycles sells the original italian Ambrosios and the rebranded taiwanese ones, but if you used the P20 successfully I take your word that the rim is a fine choice. You mention that the Ambrosio is stiffer, but as this is going to be a 32 spoked wheelset with a good geometry hub (Campy Record) I am not much worried about the stiffness of the wheelset (I assume it will be very good with both rims). Is there any other characteristic that may make one rim more preferable over the other?

cycleclinic

The p20 is deeper and shinier also bit heavier. They'll both build into good wheels so pick the one you like the look of the most.

thetoecutter

I would be grateful of the forum's advice on this. I am considering the following build or going factory built - I haven't decided yet. This would be my first upgrade on the bike, which currently has Fulcrum Racing 5s on it. Which are fine, but I have decided to use these as my winter wheels this year.

Here is the build I am looking at:

Mavic Open Pro USTs on Hope RS4 with CX-Rays with a 24/24 f/r spoke configuration - my calculations are this this would come out at around 1475g in weight and should be appropriate for a rider who is about 76kg. I think these should be in my budget of around £450. I would be grateful for confirmation of these figures.

I am more than happy to take advice on alternatives, for example, hub and rim wise.

I ride normally 3 times a week (around 6 - 9 hours), and it's a mixture of flat and punchy climbs - 5-8% average, 15% sometimes 20% at it steepest - that take me about 5 - 10 mins to climb, I will do around 2 or 3 of these climbs in a normal ride. I intend to do 5 or 6 sportives this year and I shall be stepping up to the epic distances this year - I guess I am a pretty typical "weekend warrior".

So first question - is this an appropriate build for the type of rider I am and the riding I am doing?

As a follow up. If this is a decent build, how would it stack up against, say, factory built options? The alternatives I have been looking at are Fulcrum Racing 3s/Campag Zondas and Mavic Kysrium Elites.

From my estimation, and I am new to this so my knowledge has been pretty much gleaned from reading this forum, the main difference between factory builts and custom wheels is that the former tend to be a little heavier, but I don't think I would notice this. They have a lower spoke count which would suggest they are less stiff, however, for example, Zonda reviews tend to say that they are a stiff wheelset. And finally you can't upgrade them.

In the sales the 3s and Zondas are now coming in at around £330 - 350.

Happy to pay the extra for custom builds, but, like for like, will I notice a difference? Would I see it in comfort or speed?
Even if it is 0.1 mph that's enough "marginal gain" for me!!!

Sorry for the length of the post - trying to get all the questions in.

cycleclinic

The mavic op rim is wider therefore ride comfort is a bit plusher. Tubeless compatibility is very good and they look funky.

I have done builds like that time and time again and the spoke count is fine. the wheels will be quite stiff.

svetty

thetoecutter wrote:

I would be grateful of the forum's advice on this. I am considering the following build or going factory built - I haven't decided yet. This would be my first upgrade on the bike, which currently has Fulcrum Racing 5s on it. Which are fine, but I have decided to use these as my winter wheels this year.

Here is the build I am looking at:

Mavic Open Pro USTs on Hope RS4 with CX-Rays with a 24/24 f/r spoke configuration - my calculations are this this would come out at around 1475g in weight and should be appropriate for a rider who is about 76kg. I think these should be in my budget of around £450. I would be grateful for confirmation of these figures.

I am more than happy to take advice on alternatives, for example, hub and rim wise.

I ride normally 3 times a week (around 6 - 9 hours), and it's a mixture of flat and punchy climbs - 5-8% average, 15% sometimes 20% at it steepest - that take me about 5 - 10 mins to climb, I will do around 2 or 3 of these climbs in a normal ride. I intend to do 5 or 6 sportives this year and I shall be stepping up to the epic distances this year - I guess I am a pretty typical "weekend warrior".

So first question - is this an appropriate build for the type of rider I am and the riding I am doing?

As a follow up. If this is a decent build, how would it stack up against, say, factory built options? The alternatives I have been looking at are Fulcrum Racing 3s/Campag Zondas and Mavic Kysrium Elites.

From my estimation, and I am new to this so my knowledge has been pretty much gleaned from reading this forum, the main difference between factory builts and custom wheels is that the former tend to be a little heavier, but I don't think I would notice this. They have a lower spoke count which would suggest they are less stiff, however, for example, Zonda reviews tend to say that they are a stiff wheelset. And finally you can't upgrade them.

In the sales the 3s and Zondas are now coming in at around £330 - 350.

Happy to pay the extra for custom builds, but, like for like, will I notice a difference? Would I see it in comfort or speed?
Even if it is 0.1 mph that's enough "marginal gain" for me!!!

Sorry for the length of the post - trying to get all the questions in.

Not sure that the price of CX-rays over Lasers is worthwhile - although they are easier to build with I suppose

beanstalk

thetoecutter wrote:

Mavic Open Pro USTs on Hope RS4 with CX-Rays with a 24/24 f/r spoke configuration - my calculations are this this would come out at around 1475g in weight and should be appropriate for a rider who is about 76kg.

I think you would be happier with 28 spokes at the rear wheel including thicker spokes at the drive side.
Drive side Sapim Race spokes and Sapim Laser spokes everywhere else. 2x everywhere.

cycleclinic

I normally build the mavic op rims up 24f/28r because the 24 rear would fail for some riders. 4 more spokes stiffens up the rear nicely. The op rim is very similar in stiffness to the kinlin xr22t so what works for that rim works for the mavic rim. sapim force at the rear works well but cx rays work just fine done that too and the wheels are more than stiff enough. Force spokes being thicker and nice and thick at the elbow mean they are suitable for a wider range of riders.

Differential spoking is a waste of time. I stopped doing it a couple if years back as for the weight saved the gain was nill.

Cx rays are easy to build with. Lasers on a rear wheel are not. The twist can be severe and a twisted spoke is a weakened spoke. Again something I stopped doing simply due to the time it took to build a rear wheel with them.

The original plan is fine but miche hubs would be cheaper.

thetoecutter

I would be interested in miche hubs, but I don't know too much about them. I also have considered the Campag Records, but they only seem to be available in a 32/32 spoke configuration.
A couple of follow up questions, which are hopefully not too stupid.
Are the OP rims pretty much the same as the factory Kysrium Elites? The material and profile look the same to me.
Also, the CX rays are a bladed spoke, is this supposed to give some aerodynamic benefit? If so am I right in assuming that this would be minor at best?

beanstalk

thecycleclinic wrote:

Differential spoking is a waste of time. I stopped doing it a couple if years back as for the weight saved the gain was nill.

It's not about the weight!!!

cycleclinic

Well it not about logic for sure. The fuzzy logic used is the thinner spoke is less likely to go slack because it stretches more forgetting thinner spokes impart less radial, lateral and torsional stiffness to the wheel making it more likely to go slack. Fuzzy logic. If you want to maximise spoke life use sapim race or force at the rear. If you know thinner spokes will provide a stiff enough wheel that the rim wears before a spoke fails then fine. cx rays are useful here as they are easy to build with and therefore you get a reliable wheel. Laser or revolution spokes are fine two if you are careful to avoid twist. I have learned there is no half way house.

There is no magic to this, a wheel is a structure like any other. It is governed by physics alone.

cycleclinic

Toecutter. The krysium rim is narrower internally. Not the same at all. A 24 spoke rear can lead to failures with thus kind of rim. I ride on a 24 spoke rear kinlin xr22t which is very similar in stiffness, even though I am heavier than you but that does not mean all riders will be trouble free. If I side load the rim on my bench I can't feel a bit if deflection that why I won't build what I am using for anyone else except a child or some one very light.

The mavic op rim is no different. Mavic may think a low spoke rear is fine for the krysium, i dont. Wheels like that will lead to some failures for a some riders and that to me is unacceptable. Our attitude to spoke failure is different.

Cx rays are slightly more aero but this is not an aero rim. With cx rays you are just reducing weight but the wheel is not made less reliable.

What makes a reliable hub is not its name hub it's design. You are trying to decide on a reliable hub by looking for well known brand with a good rep. You might as well fork out for shimano dura ace hubs as these have a well known name, and good rep (I won't argue with that) so they must be brilliant.

The hope and miche hubs differ in that the miche hubs have bearing preloaded adjustment, bigger bearings. The hope hubs have more teeth on the ratchet ring and one more pawl with the 4 off them individually sprung. While you can argue that the hope freehub design maybe be better you also have to find a practical benefit to it to justify the extra cost of the hubs over the miche. in reality there is no relability gain. Miche test these things in there dungeon. Think about it. More ratchet ring teeth mean smaller teeth that are are more quickly worn and more easily broken. An extra pawl mitigates the the risk of breakage but accelerates wear. All for meaningless quicker engagement. So with hope hubs you are spending more money to no gain. With Shimano dura ace hubs, Royce or white industries you at least get a titanium freehub body. Most people change there wheels long before the ratchet ring fails so it really is a non issue.

What's wrong with record hubs in 32 drilling. Light wheels can still be built with them.

thetoecutter

Cycleclinic and all, many thanks for your very detailed information. I have a pretty good idea of what I need and in the last post you have also pretty much answered the questions I had been thinking about as I digest the info from here.
Cycleclinic I shall be in contact directly off forum about a build.

Barrington12

I asked for advice here a few weeks ago about ACI Alpina spokes and my feedback now is that they were fine to build with, seemingly no different to DT or Sapim, just a little heavier but very good value for money, ordered from Cyclebasket.
Different request now, a friend has asked me to build wheels for him using 28/28 Pacenti SL23 V2 rims, he weighs 95kg, any worries here on weight limit? I can choose and source spokes, not sure yet what hubs we’ll be using. Thanks.

cycleclinic

To many version twos have cracked for me. I would not build with that rim. It will crack in time probably even if you low tension like I did.

What ever was paid for those rims was too much they are worthless.

Barrington12

Good advice, thanks. I think I’ve managed to talk him into 32 hole Archetype’s.

munkster

Are the SL23 concerns carried over to the new (and aesthetically almost identical?) Pacenti Forza rims?

I am only one case of course, but my SL23s have survived many '000s of kms without issue. Then again a mate had a SL23 spoke hole fail fairly impressively so maybe I should keep quiet! I rebuilt the wheel for him using a Forza rim so that it is still pretty much matched the SL23 front.

CRJackson

How wide do 25mm tyres come up on the new Open Pro UST?

I'm currently running Conti Grand Prix 23's (not 4000s) on the old Open Pro, which have about 4mm clearance all round on my CR1.

Thanks.

cycleclinic

The forza has a normal 2.0mm thick spoke nipple bed. I use washers with them (sapim HM) and have had no problems nor have heard of any. I sell the rims mostly rather than build with them. It is round and flat and builds easily which is an improvement over the version 2. So many V2 were binned for being not that round. The new forza is fine as far as i can tell. there are no defects nor a single warranty to date.

however Kinlin have the XR26T (I should get some next week), 24mm wide 26mm deep, tubeless asymmetric rear but gloss black. if you can cope with gloss black it is the pacenti rim (in fact it has been around for a year now) but alot cheaper.