Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

bobones

thecycleclinic wrote:

The new Open Pro has just arrived. 425g 22.2mm wide, 18.6mm internal width. Funky looking. I have 28H and 32H rim as the 24H wont be released till the end of the month. I suppose the first build I do then for photos will be with Campagnolo record hubs.

Have you measured the ERD yet?

bold seagull

bobones wrote:

MisterMuncher wrote:

I've got 400 quid. I weigh 11 stone. Reasonably powerful rider for my size, and I climb a fair bit.

What's my best bet for 1450-ish grams, stiff and strong, and properly tubeless?

Here's one option:
DCR 23mm rims, DCR hubs, CX Ray spokes - 1385g = £395.
http://dcrwheels.co.uk/custom-wheelsets ... ggestions/

Have you got a set of these? I'm looking at either the DCR 23 or 30 rims, DCR hubs and D-light spokes. The 30mm rims are a bit heavier, but are a bit more robust. £360 with the D-light spokes still under 1450g I think...decisions decisions.

Heard very good things locally about the DCR hubs. Very light and reliable - far from just budget hubs from what I have heard.

cycleclinic

ERD is 593mm so they can replace HED belgium+ and archetype rims. Also the spoke nipple bed is thick archetype thick although that the eyelet but it is not wafer thin is my point. well done mavic.

bobones

bold seagull wrote:

Have you got a set of these? I'm looking at either the DCR 23 or 30 rims, DCR hubs and D-light spokes. The 30mm rims are a bit heavier, but are a bit more robust. £360 with the D-light spokes still under 1450g I think...decisions decisions.

Heard very good things locally about the DCR hubs. Very light and reliable - far from just budget hubs from what I have heard.

No, I don't have these myself. I just thought they looked good at the price. I also quite fancy a lightish set of wide rims for my good bike. I don't think I can put together anything near this spec for the money (lightish 27mm deep, wide rim, Sapim CX-Ray spokes, Novatec Superlight hubs with EZO bearings, 1470g) http://www.wiggle.co.uk/prime-pro-road- ... imanosram/ £250 with British Cycling discount is hard to beat.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

ERD is 593mm so they can replace HED belgium+ and archetype rims. Also the spoke nipple bed is thick archetype thick although that the eyelet but it is not wafer thin is my point. well done mavic.

how very awesome....

roubaixmb

@thecycleclinic are your carbon rims from carbonal?

cycleclinic

nope they are not but I am not telling where the factory is. Never tried any carbonal products no idea if they are reseller or the factory.

bmxboy10

Malcolm can you post some photos of the OP UST built up?

ratsbeyfus

Can I just double check then that with this ERD I can replace a set of worn 24h Archetype rims (built by Ugo 8) with the new Open Pro rims and re-use the existing spokes I have?

buckmulligan

solboy10 wrote:

Malcolm can you post some photos of the OP UST built up?

+1

cycleclinic

Well Miche dropped by today and we had a chat. I visited there factory in march to discuss a BORG hub. Not some rebranded hub but something completely new as the hub I want does not exist.

As I do a lot of 24 spoke rear wheels and triplet lacing pattern (16:8) is good for tubeless tyres given a big tension drop (although I do wonder if the new Mavic OP rims addresses this issue). Triplet lacing overcomes this due to the high NDS tension to begin with. I also wont have to tension the DS spokes up to the very limit the rim can tolerate which must be helpful. However there are no triplet hubs available aftermarket that are any good. Bitex do one but it is a standard hub and the geometry is all wrong for triplet lacing. Miche used to make one but it was straight pull only.

So a custom hub forging (I have pricing now) will be manufactured. The rear hub will have 1x 6803 SKF bearing NDS and 2x 6803 or 6903 SKF bearings DS. The freehub will have 2x 6803 bearings. The axle will be borrowed from the SWR hub range. The end caps will be current SWR but Miche have a end cap design which they have never used which limits water ingress. IT was developed for a customer who wanted CX wheels but the order never materialised. The design exists though so I could simply use it.

The flanges will be standard J-bend with standard spoke holes. The flange spacing for the rear centre to middle of hub will be 17mm DS and 49mm NDS. That will give a tension balance of 70% and with an offset Kinlin rim 87% is possible.

I have successfully built with the current SWR hubs which has similar geometry but for straight pull spokes but 1:1 lacing and even though the tension balance is very low the resulting wheels are so stiff it does not matter. So maybe they can be conventially drilled as well. since 18:9 drilling can also be done but that will require special rims so will that be worth it all the extra costs.

the freehub will be reworked with 4 pawls and independent springs. Perhaps the pawls could be arranged asymmetrically to increase points of engagement without having to increase the number teeth on the ratchet ring.

Cost will be reasonable. Certainly no more than Hope's road hub costs.

The front hub will borrow alot from the current SWR hub but will be forged and have standard flanges.

I am expecting hub weight to be about 380g/pair.

In time I could actually have a hub shell for conventional drilling made. I probably will do both.

ugo.santalucia

Well done...

Particularly interested in the new freehub with individually sprung pawls, which will no doubt lift the hub to Hope level.

cycleclinic

Given what this is going to cost there is no point is doing half measures is there. As I said the hub I want is not made by anyone. Miche come close. Hope are nearly there but not quite. To goal is to make a hub that is superior to everything on the market without costing silly money. All the design ideas are out there but they are not combined into one hub yet.

The one thing I dont want to do is increase the number of teeth on the ratchet ring beyond 30T as such rings wear out faster and are more liable to teeth breaking which is why Hope use a 4 pawl freehub (the same logic applies to what I want to do). The asymmetric pawl arrangement will achieve the same thing but the ratchet ring will last longer.

The question is what kind of spring. Coil or leaf for the pawls. Part of that answer will be which is easier to assemble.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

The question is what kind of spring. Coil or leaf for the pawls. Part of that answer will be which is easier to assemble.

Leaf... Mavic use coils and they are not great

cycleclinic

I was thinking that too mainly because coil springs can break quite easily and end popping out when you remove the freehub for cleaning.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

I was thinking that too mainly because coil springs can break quite easily and end popping out when you remove the freehub for cleaning.

yep

timothyw

Good work, although 24 spoke is likely to be far inadequate for me.

Do you have a an idea of maximum rider weight for hubs with this arrangement?

cycleclinic

That will depend on rim and spokes but the hubs shells will be forged in a one batch of 500. Then in batches of 100 or 200 they can be put on the CNC machine for finishing and Drilling. Drilling can be 20F/24R (16:9) or 24F/27R (18:9). Whether the later drilling has a market remains to be seen.

24 spoke rear wheels can handle a heavier rider but ther will alway be a limit and the limit does depend on the rider. Some are harder on kit than others. Weight limits are just guidance after all, they dont mean above this weight problems are certain and the wheel will crumble into dust. 90kg rider +10kg bike should have no issue with a well built and stiff (wide and deep rimmed) 24 spoke rear wheel. How much further that can be pushed with triplet lacing I am not sure but maybe 10% as the NDS spokes will have higher tension but the rims will need to be drilled for triplet lacing to reduce the risk of spoke/nipple failure at the rim.

OfficerDigby

thecycleclinic wrote:

Well Miche dropped by today and we had a chat. I visited there factory in march to discuss a BORG hub. Not some rebranded hub but something completely new as the hub I want does not exist.

As I do a lot of 24 spoke rear wheels and triplet lacing pattern (16:8) is good for tubeless tyres given a big tension drop (although I do wonder if the new Mavic OP rims addresses this issue). Triplet lacing overcomes this due to the high NDS tension to begin with. I also wont have to tension the DS spokes up to the very limit the rim can tolerate which must be helpful. However there are no triplet hubs available aftermarket that are any good. Bitex do one but it is a standard hub and the geometry is all wrong for triplet lacing. Miche used to make one but it was straight pull only.

So a custom hub forging (I have pricing now) will be manufactured. The rear hub will have 1x 6803 SKF bearing NDS and 2x 6803 or 6903 SKF bearings DS. The freehub will have 2x 6803 bearings. The axle will be borrowed from the SWR hub range. The end caps will be current SWR but Miche have a end cap design which they have never used which limits water ingress. IT was developed for a customer who wanted CX wheels but the order never materialised. The design exists though so I could simply use it.

The flanges will be standard J-bend with standard spoke holes. The flange spacing for the rear centre to middle of hub will be 17mm DS and 49mm NDS. That will give a tension balance of 70% and with an offset Kinlin rim 87% is possible.

I have successfully built with the current SWR hubs which has similar geometry but for straight pull spokes but 1:1 lacing and even though the tension balance is very low the resulting wheels are so stiff it does not matter. So maybe they can be conventially drilled as well. since 18:9 drilling can also be done but that will require special rims so will that be worth it all the extra costs.

the freehub will be reworked with 4 pawls and independent springs. Perhaps the pawls could be arranged asymmetrically to increase points of engagement without having to increase the number teeth on the ratchet ring.

Cost will be reasonable. Certainly no more than Hope's road hub costs.

The front hub will borrow alot from the current SWR hub but will be forged and have standard flanges.

I am expecting hub weight to be about 380g/pair.

In time I could actually have a hub shell for conventional drilling made. I probably will do both.

Steel free hub body,.. steel free hub body,... steel freehub body.
And OH did I say steel free hub body?
please!

apreading

OfficerDigby wrote:

Steel free hub body,.. steel free hub body,... steel freehub body.
And OH did I say steel free hub body?
please!

Nah - alloy is OK as long as you have an anti-bite guard. OK that doesnt 100% fix it but maybe that provides an opportunity to invent something new - a freehub with multiple anti-bite guards would be ace...!

cycleclinic

miche alloy freehubs (no steel spline) with miche seperate steel sprockets dont get chewed up much at all so long as the lock ring is done up properly.

If the lock ring is done done up right, and it need to be tight then alloy freehubs do not get chewed up but some freehubs are softer than others and those do unfortunatley. So no steel freehubs, they just add weight and mean an additional cost due to the limited numbers I will have get made.

So why add cost and weight when it simply not needed, although three steel spline guards have crossed my mind but it will add cost for little gain with miche freehubs as there is only a problem if people dont torque there lockring rings right.

ugo.santalucia

I have seen quite a few chewed up Miche freehubs in my days I tell ya... chain whip, hammer and screwdriver always got the cassette out in the end

:-)

rowlers

So Ugo says I should post here after giving me a hard time in the workshop thread, so:
Would someone please check my calculations!?!
Miche Racing Box (RG2) Hubs
Kinlin XR22 24h Symmetric Front
Kinlin XR22 28h Asymmetric Rear.
Front radial.
Rear 2x
I think I need 279mm for the front and Rear 283mm DS & 284mm NDS.
Does this sound about right?

Cheers folks

cycleclinic

285mm is the right length for the rear DS. 284mm works if you are not using alloy nipples.

rnath

The 32H rims on my single speed bike need replacing and I was all set on DT Swiss RR411's until my LBS informed me they only go up to 28H. I'm after a black clincher rim without anodized brake track (so not Archetype etc), for a classic steel frame - light would be good. The new Open Pro is a bit too funky looking for this bike. Pacenti Forza looks like it would be go-er - is there anything else I should be looking at? Thanks...

ugo.santalucia

rnath wrote:

The 32H rims on my single speed bike need replacing and I was all set on DT Swiss RR411's until my LBS informed me they only go up to 28H. I'm after a black clincher rim without anodized brake track (so not Archetype etc), for a classic steel frame - light would be good. The new Open Pro is a bit too funky looking for this bike. Pacenti Forza looks like it would be go-er - is there anything else I should be looking at? Thanks...

DT Swiss 460?

rnath

ugo.santalucia wrote:

DT Swiss 460?

Thanks Ugo. I think I've read a couple of things in the past about the 460 maybe not being particularly round to build with - is that your experience? These are to replace "old style" Open Pros - so as long as they're equivalent/better?

ugo.santalucia

rnath wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

DT Swiss 460?

Thanks Ugo. I think I've read a couple of things in the past about the 460 maybe not being particularly round to build with - is that your experience? These are to replace "old style" Open Pros - so as long as they're equivalent/better?

They are very round... so round that if I spin the rear wheel as fast as I can on the bike stand, nothing vibrates, which is very unusual

The only downside is the joint is not welded, so on some rims you can slightly feel when the joint touches the brake pads... it's almost nothing, but if you are a-n-a-l, it could be annoying

rnath

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The only downside is the joint is not welded, so on some rims you can slightly feel when the joint touches the brake pads... it's almost nothing, but if you are a-n-a-l, it could be annoying

Ha... well, I'm certifiably a-n-a-l (with bells on). But if it's only minor at worst, I'm guessing the joint would smooth out with use anyway? Thanks again for the advice

cycleclinic

Kinlin XR22T but you need tubeless tape with these rims.

The R460 is round enough normally 0.5mm ish roundness. Sometimes a bit more but nothing that is noticable when you are riding.

Other rims would be the Kinlin XR31T and the H Plus Archetype.

Fixies are funky so what wrong with a funky rim.