Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

buckmulligan

solboy10 wrote:

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Now if only they were the exalith versions

Are they really worth the expected premium

By all accounts yes, haven't tried them myself but there seem to be a lot of positive reports.

It'll be interesting to see how the difference in RRP (the exalith versions were basically double the price, right?) shakes out in terms of how much more they actually cost.

sloppyschleckonds

solboy10 wrote:

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Now if only they were the exalith versions

Are they really worth the expected premium

Some of the enhanced rim brake tracks will put you on par with disc brake performance, without the 1kg weight penalty and the fuglyness. So yes.

bmxboy10

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

solboy10 wrote:

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Now if only they were the exalith versions

Are they really worth the expected premium

Some of the enhanced rim brake tracks will put you on par with disc brake performance, without the 1kg weight penalty and the fuglyness. So yes.

Does the coating wear off?

matt_n-2

I've read that they aren't going to release an Exalith Open Pro until next year now.

bmxboy10

I read the universal tubeless system is not so universal and Mavic even state that only Mavic tyres should be used and other tyres may be dangerous if used on the tubeless Mavic rim..... :roll:

timothyw

It's hard to get excited about road tubeless while the tyres are so rare and expensive - hopefully this will start the drive to bring them mainstream, but equally it might all come to nothing.

gabriel959

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

solboy10 wrote:

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Now if only they were the exalith versions

Are they really worth the expected premium

Some of the enhanced rim brake tracks will put you on par with disc brake performance, without the 1kg weight penalty and the fuglyness. So yes.

In the wet? I seriously doubt it.

apreading

gabriel959 wrote:

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

solboy10 wrote:

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Now if only they were the exalith versions

Are they really worth the expected premium

Some of the enhanced rim brake tracks will put you on par with disc brake performance, without the 1kg weight penalty and the fuglyness. So yes.

In the wet? I seriously doubt it.

Yeah - they will still have the rim brake problem of needing to clear the water and any other grime first. And even if they match the performance in the dry then surely it can only be through increased friction which will probably go through brake pads (and maybe rims) more quickly.

The suggestion that they are on a par with disc brake performance also misses the point - disc brakes arent all about higher max performance - its rare that you use this. They key is the much easier modulation, one finger braking with fine control from the hoods as well as the drops. And the ability to generate heat and therefore braking force more quickly in dry and wet - its not all about how powerful the force is, its how immediately you can call it up and how easily you can control it.

ugo.santalucia

solboy10 wrote:

I read the universal tubeless system is not so universal and Mavic even state that only Mavic tyres should be used and other tyres may be dangerous if used on the tubeless Mavic rim..... :roll:

DIsclaimer... if you read all the blurb, you never ride further than 3 miles on the bike path close to home at 5 mph. It is a shame the cycling industry feels so vulnerable and has to constantly scare people to avoid getting sued

cycleclinic

The weight limits comes from testing I have no issue with rider up to 100kg I have not tried them for riders above 100kg.

I am still not sure why alloy nipples will leave you stranded. follow the rules and they wont. The only nipple failure I have had for a long time was with a rider who bought a set of light wheels but who exceed the weight limit, his riding style may or maynot have contributed. He got a different wheelset under warranty as I hate failures for a any reason. alloy nipples also allow for a quicker wheel build. that is more important that the weight saving. That is the reason why they are used but many manufacturers build with spokes that are too short and they must be making other errors . I also do wonder if the machine building process also contributes to failures as it is very quick. If the wheels are handbuilt then alloy nipples can be damaged when building. This many also be a cause of many failures. This is easily avoided though. Also with aero spokes using brass nipples is a mistake as I have had CX-rays twist and distort with brass.

I do use brass nipples but they add on average 20 minutes to a wheel build due to the amount of wind up I have to remove and with good spoke prep.

so brass is fine but please dont think it is essential. Can we have some nuance please rather blankets rules being pedaled.

I ride alot on wheels with alloy nipples. My commutor/touring bike has 24 spoke disc brake wheels with alloy nipples (to try and find the limits) and no failures. So if they are that unreliable why is it I dont get the failures that ugo says should happen, maybe it is because they are not unreliable?

Using alloy nipples has nothing to do with weight savings. they are used for practical reasons and can be very reliable.

One final point alloy nipples should only ever be used with stiff wheels. One cause of alloy nipple failure is if they are used with flexible wheels like a 36 spoke mavic open Pro or any shallow narrow rim. Yes those wheels are not that stiff and the flex will cause nipple fatigue and failure. This may be another reason for many failures seen.

cycleclinic

just spoken to mavic

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

The weight limits comes from testing I have no issue with rider up to 100kg I have not tried them for riders above 100kg.

I am still not sure why alloy nipples will leave you stranded. follow the rules and they wont. The only nipple failure I have had for a long time was with a rider who bought a set of light wheels but who exceed the weight limit, his riding style may or maynot have contributed. He got a different wheelset under warranty as I hate failures for a any reason. alloy nipples also allow for a quicker wheel build. that is more important that the weight saving. That is the reason why they are used but many manufacturers build with spokes that are too short and they must be making other errors . I also do wonder if the machine building process also contributes to failures as it is very quick. If the wheels are handbuilt then alloy nipples can be damaged when building. This many also be a cause of many failures. This is easily avoided though. Also with aero spokes using brass nipples is a mistake as I have had CX-rays twist and distort with brass.

I do use brass nipples but they add on average 20 minutes to a wheel build due to the amount of wind up I have to remove and with good spoke prep.

so brass is fine but please dont think it is essential. Can we have some nuance please rather blankets rules being pedaled.

I ride alot on wheels with alloy nipples. My commutor/touring bike has 24 spoke disc brake wheels with alloy nipples (to try and find the limits) and no failures. So if they are that unreliable why is it I dont get the failures that ugo says should happen, maybe it is because they are not unreliable?

Using alloy nipples has nothing to do with weight savings. they are used for practical reasons and can be very reliable.

One final point alloy nipples should only ever be used with stiff wheels. One cause of alloy nipple failure is if they are used with flexible wheels like a 36 spoke mavic open Pro or any shallow narrow rim. Yes those wheels are not that stiff and the flex will cause nipple fatigue and failure. This may be another reason for many failures seen.

You can convince yourself and others that alloy nipples have all the advantages and none of the disadvantages... it goes against conventional wisdom and experience. You can even go as far as writing a set of rules on when they are suitable and when they're not. Not quite sure why there would be limitations to their use if you have so much confidence in them... maybe you should expand on that... but ultimately, as they say, horses for courses

Alex99

thecycleclinic wrote:

It is a bit disapointing about the mavic Open Pro tyre issue. It wont be an issue but it does dent the sales possibilities.

Also if only mavic tubeless tyres can be used about clinchers. If as a commerical builder a manufacturer has a warning and someone get a real problem resulting in injury then my insurance wont help. therefore they are unusable for commerical builders.

I suppose it's not a great surprise that Mavic only vouch for their own tyre/rim combinations. For marketing and practical reasons, I'd do that same in their shoes.

Does the issue dissolve away when other tubeless tyre manufacturers start to vouch for their products as 'open pro ready'?

Is the situation so different from what you have currently with the various tubeless tyre / rim / sealant combinations? How many are certified compatible?

Alex99

solboy10 wrote:

£52 on Starbike

£60 at Sigma. 24, 28, 32 hole. It's good looking... with that little yellow label. Makes me want to sing La Marseillaise

Eoinl

Any idea what the ERD is on the rim versions of the new open pro? Mavic site has nothing that I can find...

buckmulligan

Alex99 wrote:

I suppose it's not a great surprise that Mavic only vouch for their own tyre/rim combinations. For marketing and practical reasons, I'd do that same in their shoes.

Does the issue dissolve away when other tubeless tyre manufacturers start to vouch for their products as 'open pro ready'?

Is the situation so different from what you have currently with the various tubeless tyre / rim / sealant combinations? How many are certified compatible?

I don't think it's so much as rim-tyre combos not being certified as compatible, it's that Mavic have gone out of their way to state that any non-Mavic tyres are incompatible.

From a liability standpoint, in the former scenario it can be reasonably assumed that any tyre-rim combo is fine unless otherwise stated, however in the latter that's obviously not the case.

I'm not sure if Mavic's compatibility restrictions (i.e. only using Mavic tyres) only pertain to use in a tubeless setup or for a tubed-setup as well?

Alex99

BuckMulligan wrote:

Alex99 wrote:

I suppose it's not a great surprise that Mavic only vouch for their own tyre/rim combinations. For marketing and practical reasons, I'd do that same in their shoes.

Does the issue dissolve away when other tubeless tyre manufacturers start to vouch for their products as 'open pro ready'?

Is the situation so different from what you have currently with the various tubeless tyre / rim / sealant combinations? How many are certified compatible?

I don't think it's so much as rim-tyre combos not being certified as compatible, it's that Mavic have gone out of their way to state that any non-Mavic tyres are incompatible.

From a liability standpoint, in the former scenario it can be reasonably assumed that any tyre-rim combo is fine unless otherwise stated, however in the latter that's obviously not the case.

I'm not sure if Mavic's compatibility restrictions (i.e. only using Mavic tyres) only pertain to use in a tubeless setup or for a tubed-setup as well?

Mavic are seeking approval of road UST as a standard for (ISO and ETRTO), so that should provide a path for other manufacturers to make compatible tyres which should give comfort to those selling mavic/other wheel/tyre packages.

cycleclinic

just spoken to mavic about ust and it seems the advise on there tyres is more about the ease of fitting. Tubes are fine as are other tubeless tyres but mavic tubeless tyres are made for an easy fit.

So given I have never had any trouble mounting tubeless tyres except to Ryde rims then this may not be an issue. Testing will be needed.

cycleclinic

...

nachetetm

I wonder if the new Open Pro will be offered in silver like the old ones, they would be perfect for what I have in mind.

ugo.santalucia

nachetetm wrote:

I wonder if the new Open Pro will be offered in silver like the old ones, they would be perfect for what I have in mind.

I'm sure they won't

timothyw

H Plus Son Archetype or TB14 come in a rather nice polished silver, probably a good substitute unless the tubeless thing is particularly important to you.

I think there's a good few people running archetypes tubeless without bother though.

nachetetm

TimothyW wrote:

H Plus Son Archetype or TB14 come in a rather nice polished silver, probably a good substitute unless the tubeless thing is particularly important to you.

I think there's a good few people running archetypes tubeless without bother though.

I did like the idea of a UST silver rim, not feeling very confident with guetto conversions.

Other silver rim with "modern" design is the Velocity Quill (tubeless ready, no UST) but they don't seem to be available anywhere, I don't know why.

bmxboy10

thecycleclinic wrote:

just spoken to mavic about ust and it seems the advise on there tyres is more about the ease of fitting. Tubes are fine as are other tubeless tyres but mavic tubeless tyres are made for an easy fit.

So given I have never had any trouble mounting tubeless tyres except to Ryde rims then this may not be an issue. Testing will be needed.

When do you take your first delivery Malcolm?

cycleclinic

Hopefully soon. Shame no exalith rim but I do want to see how tubeless installation works with these rims and IRC tubeless tyres and what the new mavic UST tyres are like. Probably like the roadlites which will be fine if they are.

The Quill had production issue everyone gave up trying to get them.

I will get silver Kinlins in the next time I place an order with Kinlin later this year.

bmxboy10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALVtgcY1YeM

Worth a look....

cycleclinic

Open pro rim brakes rims in all drillings are available now. i get mine on tuesday. the disc brake rims are delayed till september ans the mavic tubeless tyres are delayed till august.

Speaking to the mavic reps you dont have to use mavic tubeless tyres with the rims but they do say fitting tubeless tyres by hand is now possible with easy inflation. I am prepared to be amazed.

timothyw

GCN video is very impressive, definitely tempted, although the question is how much the Mavic UST tyres cost.

ugo.santalucia

UST is very welcome... it should put an end to a saga of poor compatibility. If that means riding only Mavic tyres on Mavic rims, so be it... although I am sure others will jump on the boat in no time

munkster

Malcolm are you selling the rims separately and if so when? How much are they going to be please? The rim brake ones...

Cheers