Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

cycleclinic

Nope.

bmxboy10

Hi all I need your comments on the use of PILLAR Aero PSR X-TRA spokes rather than Sapim Race please? Do bladed spokes give a less compliant ride?

cycleclinic

Spoke choice does not affect the ride. Using ally spokes would.

ugo.santalucia

Don't use Pillar spokes... they are a cheap alternative... they are less durable. IF you really want bladed spokes, CX Ray are the only option

Spoke gauge do affect the ride, spoke shape I am not sure, possibly

svetty

Probably reflects my limited skill but bladed spokes are much easier to build with.....

ugo.santalucia

Svetty wrote:

Probably reflects my limited skill but bladed spokes are much easier to build with.....

It takes twice as long, to hold the spoke while you twist the nipple. Spoke windup in round ones is not an issue if you have good technique. For small gauge spokes you overtighten by 1/4 and back down... no wind up at all and you get used to do it very quickly

bmxboy10

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Don't use Pillar spokes... they are a cheap alternative... they are less durable. IF you really want bladed spokes, CX Ray are the only option

Spoke gauge do affect the ride, spoke shape I am not sure, possibly

I think Hunt use these.

ugo.santalucia

solboy10 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Don't use Pillar spokes... they are a cheap alternative... they are less durable. IF you really want bladed spokes, CX Ray are the only option

Spoke gauge do affect the ride, spoke shape I am not sure, possibly

I think Hunt use these.

Nobdy says Hunt use the best materials around. When you produce a large number of wheels, it is convenient to cut costs on components and Pillar spokes are cheaper than Sapim, like for like.

I had a chat in the past with Harry Rowlands about the Pillar bladed spokes and he confirmed that he used them for a while as they were much cheaper than CX-ray, but customers kept coming back with broken spokes, so he stopped.

bmxboy10

ugo.santalucia wrote:

solboy10 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Don't use Pillar spokes... they are a cheap alternative... they are less durable. IF you really want bladed spokes, CX Ray are the only option

Spoke gauge do affect the ride, spoke shape I am not sure, possibly

I think Hunt use these.

Nobdy says Hunt use the best materials around. When you produce a large number of wheels, it is convenient to cut costs on components and Pillar spokes are cheaper than Sapim, like for like.

I had a chat in the past with Harry Rowlands about the Pillar bladed spokes and he confirmed that he used them for a while as they were much cheaper than CX-ray, but customers kept coming back with broken spokes, so he stopped.

Cheers

bmxboy10

Let me guess Alu nipples are a no no?

ugo.santalucia

solboy10 wrote:

Let me guess Alu nipples are a no no?

You won't find consensum on this... I don't use them... waste of time. If you do the same compromises that factory wheels do, what's the point of going handbuilts?

onyourright

Plus, what’s the point of them? Weight of this magnitude simply doesn’t matter. Wherever it is.

ugo.santalucia

OnYourRight wrote:

Plus, what’s the point of them? Weight of this magnitude simply doesn’t matter. Wherever it is.

It's in the region of 0.7 of a gram per nipple... so in a 20/24 you save 35 grams or so. And here's the funny thing... if you quote your wheelset at 1600 grams, everybody thinks it's heavy, but if you quote it at 1565 gram, then it's suddenly a light wheelset.

onyourright

The difference remains 35 g. Accelerating that weight from stopped to 30 km/h takes about 1 joule to get the wheels spinning and 1 joule to move them forward at 30 km/h. A joule is 1 watt for 1 second. Here we have 2 joules. By comparison, you need about 3000 joules in total to accelerate to 30 km/h once.

The effect of these 35 g when climbing is of course even less, rotating-mass effects being zero.

I doubt there was ever a pro race won on such a marginal gain, and yet people riding for Strava with their 150 g iPhone in one pocket and 150 g wallet in the other pocket claim to care about this. Woolly thinking!

bmxboy10

Funny though as not all wheel builders would agree.

Wheely33

Hopefully this is the correct place to be asking this question .: I'm​ looking into buying a second-hand powertap Wheelset that is ten speed - the question is how do I convert it to 11 speed, and would the rear wheel need rebuilding or simply redishing ?

sloppyschleckonds

Wheely33 wrote:

Hopefully this is the correct place to be asking this question .: I'm​ looking into buying a second-hand powertap Wheelset that is ten speed - the question is how do I convert it to 11 speed, and would the rear wheel need rebuilding or simply redishing ?

Think you just replace the freehub

drlodge

OnYourRight wrote:

The difference remains 35 g. Accelerating that weight from stopped to 30 km/h takes about 1 joule to get the wheels spinning and 1 joule to move them forward at 30 km/h. A joule is 1 watt for 1 second. Here we have 2 joules. By comparison, you need about 3000 joules in total to accelerate to 30 km/h once.

The effect of these 35 g when climbing is of course even less, rotating-mass effects being zero.

But people still use standard cheap inner tubes. Use the Continental Supersonic tubes that cost £10 and save 50g per wheel, a much more cost effective option. I just don't understand the logic behind this so called weight saving, doesn't makes sense.

I am not going to notice a few grams here and there.

pblakeney

I've said it before elsewhere. If you read Lance's biography he talks about going training on his lightweight climbing bike. With 32 spokes. I think people overthink this lightweight nonsense.

onyourright

drlodge wrote:

Use the Continental Supersonic tubes that cost £10 and save 50g per wheel, a much more cost effective option.

And with fewer downsides than aluminium nipples.

However, even the weight-saving from lightweight tubes makes practically no difference, if you do the maths.

By contrast, the lower rolling resistance of lightweight tubes (and especially latex tubes) does make a noticeable difference. Saving a few watts means saving a few joules per second of every ride. Compare that to the 2 joules saved with aluminium nipples per acceleration from zero to 30 km/h.

Half the bicycle industry is based on customers evaluating performance by the wrong criteria.

Since this is a wheel thread, try this sometime: lift your bicycle off the ground and spin a wheel. Put your hand near the tyre. Notice the strong flow of entrained air, even with narrow, completely slick tyres. Then put your hand near the spokes, preferably round spokes (try not to lose a finger). Notice the comparatively faint airflow.

When you also consider the radius of the tyre and average radius of the spokes (i.e. half their length), you have to conclude that the drag of spinning the tyre, although minuscule compared to the aerodynamic drag of moving the whole tyre forward – never mind the rest of your bicycle and your entire body! – is nonetheless much greater than the drag of the spokes. And yet people worry they give up significant performance by going for cheap, easy-to-use, round spokes rather than CX-Ray or whatever. It’s just not so.

I have 36 round spokes at the rear and 32 round spokes at the front with cheap, box-section rims. I weigh about 67 kg and out-roll practically everyone I ride with downhill, some of whom have high-end Zipps, for crying out loud.

Aero wheels do improve speed, of course, but the effects are far smaller than most people imagine. A slightly tighter jersey makes much more difference. A good aero tuck makes much more difference again. More to the point, a pair of latex tubes costs less than £20 and literally gives you more speed than a pair of Zipps. Whoops.

lostboysaint

Go tubeless!

cycleclinic

I use both kind of nipples here my take.
Alloy nipples;
They are reliable only when
1) the spokes are the perfect length (you cannot build with short spokes or the nipples can break)
2) you must use some kind of corrosion inhibitor on the spoke threads.
3) spoke prep! Rock n Roll nipples cream works well but so does sapim nipple freeze and other similar props
4) a 4 sides spoke nipple key is also a must to prevent damage to the nipple
The advantage of alloy nipples is less spoke twist. building is simply easier. Also the self locking nipples are useable in that spoke twist is not an issue with thinner spokes like lasers or CX-rays. Even with race spokes twist is kept to a minimum and build time is sped up. Also the anodising on black nipples does not rub off with time. So they stay black. These the reason to use them not the weight saving.
Also best used on a very stiff wheels. Wheel with flex can suffer from fatigue so if building with a narrow shallow rim like the mavic open pro I would not use them. modern rims are much stiffer and therefore fatigue for most riders is a non issue.

brass nipples - for heavy riders these are better because fatigue is a non issue. however friction even with spoke prep between spoke and nipple is higher so spoke twist is a more of an issue. With thin spokes sometimes building can be a issue with brass nipples. I wont use them with CX-ray for this reason.
Black brass nipples are useless. the black detoriates with time and the black coating often causes more wind up issues. I have stop using them for the latter reason.

So alloy nipples are fine so long as you stick rules I have outlined. Used several 10,000's of the things and the failures are counted on one hand and have been due to rider being too heavy (I didn't know there weight), or I messed up the spoke lengths mia culpa there.

So the discussion above completly misses the important points.

As for aero wheels, it is another gain. If you have low Crr tyre, a good position, tight clothing or good skinsuit then time can be saved with aero wheels. If that was not the case you would not find them used in TT's. They are competiton wheels really but appeal to those that don't compete. I personally carbon rimmed wheels the most comfortable I have tried. Something to do with the composite structure of the rim it must be good a reducing road buzz.

For the 24hr TT that is coming all I need now is a better skinsuit. and should my shoulder be up to it I hope to be fairly rapid.

However wheel choice is rarley about what you need it always about what you want.

sloppyschleckonds

lostboysaint wrote:

Go tubeless!

When they make descent tyres

ugo.santalucia

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

lostboysaint wrote:

Go tubeless!

When they make descent tyres

The IRC and the Maxxis Padrone are nice... the Hutch are a bit agricultural. None of them is as light as clinchers

shortfall

The IRC Formula Pro is the best tyre I ever rode on (not used tubs so only comparing with clinchers). Not done enough miles to say how well they wear but in terms of grip and how they roll they're incredible. At 90 psi they give a super smooth ride. Only downside so far is you need a second mortgage to pay for them but assuming they go on to wear well enough then I'd have no qualms about buying another set.

cycleclinic

the 25mm IRC formula Pro RBCC tyre is 275g ugo that is as light as a clincher and tube once you factor in sealant in fact a few grams lighter. The formula pro light is a bit lighter at 260g in 25mm width.

I agree shortfall the RBCC tyres are the best tyres I have ever used. Life is in the order of 10,000 km for me. I can wear rims out in less.

munkster

Malcolm when do you expect the "IRC Formula Pro RBCC" back in stock please? 25mm... Cheers.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

Life is in the order of 10,000 km for me

sloppyschleckonds

ugo.santalucia wrote:

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

lostboysaint wrote:

Go tubeless!

When they make descent tyres

The IRC and the Maxxis Padrone are nice... the Hutch are a bit agricultural. None of them is as light as clinchers

Im going to try some Vittoiria Corsa in 23mm, to replace Schwalbe Pro Ones

cycleclinic

Dunno I find out when the are coming when I get an invoice. I am waiting for that could be any time or a long time.