Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

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  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    Depth... I think it's 0.7 mm tall, whereas most rims are 10 mm or over. The pad is probably around 6 mm when new and a wheel might "wobble" up and down by 1 mm easily... there is not much margin
    left the forum March 2023
  • bmxboy10
    bmxboy10 Posts: 1,958
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Depth... I think it's 0.7 mm tall, whereas most rims are 10 mm or over. The pad is probably around 6 mm when new and a wheel might "wobble" up and down by 1 mm easily... there is not much margin
    Cheers Ugo you are a font of all knowledge! Just Googled it and it is a known issue with people having to sand down pads to make them fit. Been offered a deal on a set with RS4 hubs but back to the drawing board me thinks....
  • torino
    torino Posts: 46
    solboy10 wrote:
    Cheers Ugo you are a font of all knowledge! Just Googled it and it is a known issue with people having to sand down pads to make them fit. Been offered a deal on a set with RS4 hubs but back to the drawing board me thinks....

    I wonder how a problem like that does not appear on the drawing board of the people who are designing these rims...

    Sanding down pads... If I wanted bad break performance I would go carbon.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    solboy10 wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Depth... I think it's 0.7 mm tall, whereas most rims are 10 mm or over. The pad is probably around 6 mm when new and a wheel might "wobble" up and down by 1 mm easily... there is not much margin
    Cheers Ugo you are a font of all knowledge! Just Googled it and it is a known issue with people having to sand down pads to make them fit. Been offered a deal on a set with RS4 hubs but back to the drawing board me thinks....

    I'd go for the DT 460... I found the tubeless fitting issues inexistent. They need an airshot thing, but all tubeless tyres do these days, they are not as tight fitting as they were 2-3 years ago, when it was impossible to put them on without levers
    left the forum March 2023
  • bmxboy10
    bmxboy10 Posts: 1,958
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    solboy10 wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Depth... I think it's 0.7 mm tall, whereas most rims are 10 mm or over. The pad is probably around 6 mm when new and a wheel might "wobble" up and down by 1 mm easily... there is not much margin
    Cheers Ugo you are a font of all knowledge! Just Googled it and it is a known issue with people having to sand down pads to make them fit. Been offered a deal on a set with RS4 hubs but back to the drawing board me thinks....

    I'd go for the DT 460... I found the tubeless fitting issues inexistent. They need an airshot thing, but all tubeless tyres do these days, they are not as tight fitting as they were 2-3 years ago, when it was impossible to put them on without levers

    Ugo I can get the R460 with Record hubs for less than the RS4 hubs this means a 32/32 set up but I am coming round to this as a possiblilty. Not as attractive as the RS4s but nice all the same. Would you recommend the Campy hubs over the RS4s?
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    Yeah, they are nice... I prefer cartridge bearings as they are simpler to replace, but Campagnolo hubs are very good indeed
    left the forum March 2023
  • buckmulligan
    buckmulligan Posts: 1,031
    Right, enough of these trifling questions and on to the really important issues:

    Which way should the hub logo face with respect to the valve hole?

    I know conventional wisdom is to lace it so that the hub logo faces the valve hole, but to my naive mind it seems as though it should be the opposite and the hub logo should face the rim joint on the opposite side.

    My reasoning for this is that convention states that if/when you photograph your bike you should have the valve stems at 6 o'clock, so it makes sense to have the hub logos facing upwards in this configuration.

    WHAT A DILEMMA! What do you guys do?
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    BuckMulligan wrote:
    Right, enough of these trifling questions and on to the really important issues:

    Which way should the hub logo face with respect to the valve hole?

    I know conventional wisdom is to lace it so that the hub logo faces the valve hole, but to my naive mind it seems as though it should be the opposite and the hub logo should face the rim joint on the opposite side.

    My reasoning for this is that convention states that if/when you photograph your bike you should have the valve stems at 6 o'clock, so it makes sense to have the hub logos facing upwards in this configuration.

    WHAT A DILEMMA! What do you guys do?

    I see your point, but as you always begin a build from the valve, it is easy to align the logo, less so to align the opposite of the logo... more prone to error, that's all. You could begin the build from the opposite hole to the valve, but you need to count them right or you end up with spokes crossing at the valve, which looks cack, like this rear wheels

    http://dcrwheels.co.uk/gallery/customer ... #iLightbox[gallery-1]/0
    left the forum March 2023
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    the SL23 did crack. the new forza may address all of the issues though. the rim is 485g. brake track is 10mm tall like the v1 rim and it is made in a different factory. the few I have built up are very nice to work with. Will there be cracking issues in the future - way to early to tell but if nipple washers are used there the chance of an issue is smaller. The rear rim is asymmetric but there is a price tag.

    Campagnolo record hubs are wonderful. You get the joys of a cartridge bearing hub for which the internal parts have been in production since 1999. Therefore the internals will be around for a long time to come as there is no meaningfull way of improving what Campagnolo have created. There only problem is the lack of drilling options.

    You can overthink the hub and rim choice though. All they need to be is round, true, stiff and reliable.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • torino
    torino Posts: 46
    Just to advocate a bit in favour of handbuilt wheels... Checked Today the tensions of the rear wheel of my CdF (stock wheels, Joytech hubs, Jalco rims, 32H, spokes are ~1.8mm but a bit thicker than Dt Comp). This is what I got:

    1zz2rso.png

    2n7h0us.png

    The figure says it all, crap tension balance.
  • Thick Mike
    Thick Mike Posts: 337
    Really fancy having a go at building a wheelset for my Giant TCX SLR1 (2016). The stock wheels (PX-2) are pretty heavy (Front: 1179g, Rear 1383g without cassette). It feels a bit sluggish getting up to speed and especially steering (which I put down to the greater gyroscopic effect of the spinning wheel versus my road bike).

    I am 78kg and use the bike for towpaths, gravel tracks, woodland paths as well as on road. Plan is to run semi slick 33mm tyres to give reasonable on/off road performance. I don't plan any real rough off road or any racing.

    Any advice regarding components for a fun disc wheelset build and parts vendors? Nothing too tricky and budget <£300 or so all in.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    torino wrote:
    Just to advocate a bit in favour of handbuilt wheels... Checked Today the tensions of the rear wheel of my CdF (stock wheels, Joytech hubs, Jalco rims, 32H, spokes are ~1.8mm but a bit thicker than Dt Comp). This is what I got:

    1zz2rso.png

    2n7h0us.png

    The figure says it all, crap tension balance.

    It's not that terrible... + or - 20% or so... I have seen much much worse in wheels sold as "upgrades"
    left the forum March 2023
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    Thick Mike wrote:
    Really fancy having a go at building a wheelset for my Giant TCX SLR1 (2016). The stock wheels (PX-2) are pretty heavy (Front: 1179g, Rear 1383g without cassette). It feels a bit sluggish getting up to speed and especially steering (which I put down to the greater gyroscopic effect of the spinning wheel versus my road bike).

    I am 78kg and use the bike for towpaths, gravel tracks, woodland paths as well as on road. Plan is to run semi slick 33mm tyres to give reasonable on/off road performance. I don't plan any real rough off road or any racing.

    Any advice regarding components for a fun disc wheelset build and parts vendors? Nothing too tricky and budget <£300 or so all in.

    Shimano hubs CX 75 and a pair of DT 460 28 rims (or Shimano XT 8000 and 32 holes rims), Sapim race spokes, should give you something in the 1800 grams ballpark or just under, so a saving of over a pound without spending a fortune
    left the forum March 2023
  • Thick Mike
    Thick Mike Posts: 337
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Thick Mike wrote:
    Really fancy having a go at building a wheelset for my Giant TCX SLR1 (2016). The stock wheels (PX-2) are pretty heavy (Front: 1179g, Rear 1383g without cassette). It feels a bit sluggish getting up to speed and especially steering (which I put down to the greater gyroscopic effect of the spinning wheel versus my road bike).

    I am 78kg and use the bike for towpaths, gravel tracks, woodland paths as well as on road. Plan is to run semi slick 33mm tyres to give reasonable on/off road performance. I don't plan any real rough off road or any racing.

    Any advice regarding components for a fun disc wheelset build and parts vendors? Nothing too tricky and budget <£300 or so all in.

    Shimano hubs CX 75 and a pair of DT 460 28 rims (or Shimano XT 8000 and 32 holes rims), Sapim race spokes, should give you something in the 1800 grams ballpark or just under, so a saving of over a pound without spending a fortune

    Thanks Ugo, that sounds promising. I'm going to ask the idiot questions now...

    My current front axles are 15mm through, can I just replace them with the cx75 front which is QR?

    Also, how do I know what length spokes, pattern etc. And...are nipples important?!
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    Thick Mike wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Thick Mike wrote:
    Really fancy having a go at building a wheelset for my Giant TCX SLR1 (2016). The stock wheels (PX-2) are pretty heavy (Front: 1179g, Rear 1383g without cassette). It feels a bit sluggish getting up to speed and especially steering (which I put down to the greater gyroscopic effect of the spinning wheel versus my road bike).

    I am 78kg and use the bike for towpaths, gravel tracks, woodland paths as well as on road. Plan is to run semi slick 33mm tyres to give reasonable on/off road performance. I don't plan any real rough off road or any racing.

    Any advice regarding components for a fun disc wheelset build and parts vendors? Nothing too tricky and budget <£300 or so all in.

    Shimano hubs CX 75 and a pair of DT 460 28 rims (or Shimano XT 8000 and 32 holes rims), Sapim race spokes, should give you something in the 1800 grams ballpark or just under, so a saving of over a pound without spending a fortune

    Thanks Ugo, that sounds promising. I'm going to ask the idiot questions now...

    My current front axles are 15mm through, can I just replace them with the cx75 front which is QR?

    Also, how do I know what length spokes, pattern etc. And...are nipples important?!

    No, you need hubs that fit your fork... maybe the XT 8000 do a 15 mm thru axle version?

    Length needs to be calculated, taking measurements and putting them in one of the many spoke calculators available online... it's half the job and you need to learn to do it
    left the forum March 2023
  • Thick Mike
    Thick Mike Posts: 337
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Thick Mike wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Thick Mike wrote:
    Really fancy having a go at building a wheelset for my Giant TCX SLR1 (2016). The stock wheels (PX-2) are pretty heavy (Front: 1179g, Rear 1383g without cassette). It feels a bit sluggish getting up to speed and especially steering (which I put down to the greater gyroscopic effect of the spinning wheel versus my road bike).

    I am 78kg and use the bike for towpaths, gravel tracks, woodland paths as well as on road. Plan is to run semi slick 33mm tyres to give reasonable on/off road performance. I don't plan any real rough off road or any racing.

    Any advice regarding components for a fun disc wheelset build and parts vendors? Nothing too tricky and budget <£300 or so all in.

    Shimano hubs CX 75 and a pair of DT 460 28 rims (or Shimano XT 8000 and 32 holes rims), Sapim race spokes, should give you something in the 1800 grams ballpark or just under, so a saving of over a pound without spending a fortune

    Thanks Ugo, that sounds promising. I'm going to ask the idiot questions now...

    My current front axles are 15mm through, can I just replace them with the cx75 front which is QR?

    Also, how do I know what length spokes, pattern etc. And...are nipples important?!

    No, you need hubs that fit your fork... maybe the XT 8000 do a 15 mm thru axle version?

    Length needs to be calculated, taking measurements and putting them in one of the many spoke calculators available online... it's half the job and you need to learn to do it

    So many variables! No wonder builders like to stick to a small number of components. I have about a hundred tabs open on my browser :)

    Options I have found are:

    Shimano XT 8010 £88 F32/R32
    Shimano XTR 9010 £280 F28/R32
    Hope RS4 £204 F28/R28

    Not sure if these are the cheapest available, I've gone for the centrelock versions rather than the six bolt.

    Any comments/preferences? Irrationally I'd like 28 spokes F&R, not sure why.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    I think XT are pretty good for the money... XTR are overpriced. Hope are nice too
    left the forum March 2023
  • bmxboy10
    bmxboy10 Posts: 1,958
    Right decision time Record or Hope RS4 hubs?
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    solboy10 wrote:
    Right decision time Record or Hope RS4 hubs?

    Either way you can't go wrong... they are both very good hubs... Campagnolo also come with very good skewers
    left the forum March 2023
  • torino
    torino Posts: 46
    solboy10 wrote:
    Right decision time Record or Hope RS4 hubs?

    Why not DT 350's?

    Just kiddin...

    If you have a Campa group, Record is almost like mandatory...
  • bmxboy10
    bmxboy10 Posts: 1,958
    torino wrote:
    solboy10 wrote:
    Right decision time Record or Hope RS4 hubs?

    Why not DT 350's?

    Just kiddin...

    If you have a Campa group, Record is almost like mandatory...

    No I have Ultegra :lol:
  • bmxboy10
    bmxboy10 Posts: 1,958
    If I go RS4s , Steel or Alu freehub? Weight vs longevity?
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    solboy10 wrote:
    If I go RS4s , Steel or Alu freehub? Weight vs longevity?

    I went for steel... I think also the axle is steel... it's a chunk, nearly 100 grams heavier but it avoids the indentations and stuck cassettes and in the long run you'll be grateful you have it.

    As for the campagnolo: If you have Ultegra why going for Campagnolo hubs and not 6800, which are cheaper, probably just as good and you don't have to use a non campagnolo freehub?
    left the forum March 2023
  • drlodge
    drlodge Posts: 4,826
    I have wheels with Record and Hope RS mono hubs, both are good. Record hubs are only available in 32H, which is why I moved to Hope (and Miche). Hubs are hubs, they work. Don't see much point in spending big money on them frankly. Although my Hope hubs in gun metal grey do look the biz.
    WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
    Find me on Strava
  • bmxboy10
    bmxboy10 Posts: 1,958
    drlodge wrote:
    I have wheels with Record and Hope RS mono hubs, both are good. Record hubs are only available in 32H, which is why I moved to Hope (and Miche). Hubs are hubs, they work. Don't see much point in spending big money on them frankly. Although my Hope hubs in gun metal grey do look the biz.
    Hope or Miche?
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    solboy10 wrote:
    Hope or Miche?

    With Hope you get three things: one is a choice of colour, the second is a better freehub, with stronger and more durable pawls, quicker engagement and a loud click which scares pedestrainas on shared path and finally you get an unlimited supply of spare parts from the UK, which you do not get with Miche. Two of my customers broke the Miche red collar that loads the bearings... I sorted one with a used one I had in the garage and Malcolm supplied the other, as he happened to have one spare... a third failure would have been a problem.

    Other than that, they are pretty much the same thing.
    left the forum March 2023
  • drlodge
    drlodge Posts: 4,826
    I'd say if you have the money then Hope for reasons Ugo mentioned. Miche are decent hubs, I got mine from Malcolm on carbon wheels that won't get used that much and I'd hope (no pun intended) that if I have problems then he'd see me good. The Hope hubs are on the Rourke which gets a lot more miles and the couple of times I've emailed Hope tech support they've been excellent. The hubs had the wrong collar (Shimano instead of Campag) and they promptly shipped me the right one.
    WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
    Find me on Strava
  • svetty
    svetty Posts: 1,904
    Just bought a replacement pair of Bontrager TLR RL rims from an online supplier to replace worn out ones (brake tracks down to the wear point after 2-3 yrs extensive use).

    430grams, 17mm internal width, tubeless compatible, offset rear, only £103 the pair.

    Seems seriously good value to me - so much so that I am considering getting another pair and building them up with non-bontrager hubs. Only issue is that front is 18 spoke so not that many hub choices out there. If only Shimano were as reasonable in their spares pricing....
    FFS! Harden up and grow a pair :D
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    ugo you should see the miche hub spares I stock. i have everything. spares availability maybe poor from the distributor but I buy of the factory. Given I sell more miche hubs than most I can honestly say they are nearly trouble free. The odd customer gets a dodgy freehub but we are talking under 1% of users. i would put this into context. for the vast majority, miche hubs work which makes the better freehub design of hope or dt swiss freehubs academic. Also never seen a miche pawl failure.

    Record hubs are not much more than ultegra lighter and a better design in that the bearing cups are actually available as spares. Again record hub spares are easily avilable. FH-BUU015 alloy campag freehub or FH-BUU015X1 steel freehub for shimano and HB-RE100 service kit are all the spares you need. The HB-RE023 bearings, HB-RE022 cones and HB-RE124 bearing cups are all available as seperate spares. The hub parts have been in use since 1999 and therefore will be in use for a long time to come. Shimano change there hub design every few years and hub spares then fall out of production.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • sloppyschleckonds
    sloppyschleckonds Posts: 8,019
    Any update on delivery for Mavic Open Pro UST Exalith rims?
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles

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