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Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

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  • mlgtmlgt Posts: 366
    Interesting about tyres and rim tape etc and how hard they are to get on/off on Pacenti rims.

    I used to hate getting gatorskins on/off and figured out that its not that bad as long as you used a folded version. A few minutes I can change a tyre/tube. Granted a little longer if the wheel itself is caked in grime.

    I am somewhat sold on a Pacenti rim with a suitable hub. What are the differences in price and views on say an ultegra vs dura ace (overkill?) compared to a hope (or a all weather hub that will last) Unsure on spokes but Im not too fussed. Stability/longevity is key.

    Im 83kg, at the moment, and will continue to shift the weight off. My style of riding is sprinting (some hills) and I guess the downsides of that is braking to a stop on London roads. So I guess a 20/28 would be suitable?

    I do like the idea of a different coloured hub compared to a silver or black one. Would that rule out the Shimano variants? I noticed White industry is another brand that crops up.

    I would also like some advice on a more deeper dish rim as an alternative. So welcome any comments and criticism/debate on this. The wheels will likely to be my all weather set up on my commuting bike. The bike is a Canyon Endurace in which I also ride sub 50 miles on weekends.

    Thanks in advance.
    N2 - SW1

    Canyon Endurace 9.0
  • meesterbondmeesterbond Posts: 1,240
    I think I got through 3 plastic tyre levers and an inner tube when I tried to get a pair of Veloflex clinchers on my SL23s. Eventually gave up and fitted some Conti 4000s instead.

    I thought I had reasonable technique, fitted Rocket Rons onto some Stans tubeless rims successfully and they were hard work but the Pacenti rims were another thing altogether. Spent the whole trip I bought them for praying not to puncture.

    Great wheels though and I'm totally sold on the 'wide' rim concept.
  • I think I got through 3 plastic tyre levers and an inner tube when I tried to get a pair of Veloflex clinchers on my SL23s. Eventually gave up and fitted some Conti 4000s instead.

    I thought I had reasonable technique, fitted Rocket Rons onto some Stans tubeless rims successfully and they were hard work but the Pacenti rims were another thing altogether. Spent the whole trip I bought them for praying not to puncture.

    Great wheels though and I'm totally sold on the 'wide' rim concept.

    I had a similar experience with Vredestien All Weather's, not had a puncture yet. Not looking foreward to the time when I do!

    I carry a collection of strong tyre levers in readiness!
  • iPeteiPete Posts: 6,076
    mlgt wrote:
    Interesting about tyres and rim tape etc and how hard they are to get on/off on Pacenti rims.

    I used to hate getting gatorskins on/off and figured out that its not that bad as long as you used a folded version. A few minutes I can change a tyre/tube. Granted a little longer if the wheel itself is caked in grime.

    I am somewhat sold on a Pacenti rim with a suitable hub. What are the differences in price and views on say an ultegra vs dura ace (overkill?) compared to a hope (or a all weather hub that will last) Unsure on spokes but Im not too fussed. Stability/longevity is key.

    Im 83kg, at the moment, and will continue to shift the weight off. My style of riding is sprinting (some hills) and I guess the downsides of that is braking to a stop on London roads. So I guess a 20/28 would be suitable?

    I do like the idea of a different coloured hub compared to a silver or black one. Would that rule out the Shimano variants? I noticed White industry is another brand that crops up.

    I would also like some advice on a more deeper dish rim as an alternative. So welcome any comments and criticism/debate on this. The wheels will likely to be my all weather set up on my commuting bike. The bike is a Canyon Endurace in which I also ride sub 50 miles on weekends.

    Thanks in advance.

    I'm no builder but would look no further than Hope hubs in your colour of choice with Archetype rims.
    I think the minimum spoke count is 28h with those hubs.
  • londoncommuterlondoncommuter Posts: 1,550
    LegendLust wrote:

    Don't bother. I snapped a VAR tool trying to get a Schwalbe tyre off a Pacenti rim.

    However I have now developed a good technique and can get one on and off with just two normal tyre levers

    You've left us in suspense on this one. Does it involve some sort of hydraulic device or a team of gorillas?
  • LegendLustLegendLust Posts: 1,022
    LegendLust wrote:

    Don't bother. I snapped a VAR tool trying to get a Schwalbe tyre off a Pacenti rim.

    However I have now developed a good technique and can get one on and off with just two normal tyre levers

    You've left us in suspense on this one. Does it involve some sort of hydraulic device or a team of gorillas?

    It involves Andre Greipel with a JCB.

    No seriously, the key is to break the tyre/rim seal. You need to push the sidewall away from the rim wall, on both sides of the wheel, so that the tyre sits in the middle 'well' of the rim. You can then get normal tyre levers under the bead and get the tyre off.

    Hope this helps everyone!
  • mlgtmlgt Posts: 366
    I'm no builder but would look no further than Hope hubs in your colour of choice with Archetype rims.
    I think the minimum spoke count is 28h with those hubs.

    Thanks, but Im not a big fan of the archetypes and have been leaning towards the Pacenti. However curious what other wheel build can be compared to an deeper dish build?
    N2 - SW1

    Canyon Endurace 9.0
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,092
    mlgt wrote:
    Thanks, but Im not a big fan of the archetypes and have been leaning towards the Pacenti. However curious what other wheel build can be compared to an deeper dish build?

    Have you tried them or it is a matter of stickers?

    I will be honest with you: the reasons they are so popular are two

    1) There is a higher profit margin on a rim that retails at nearly twice the price

    2) They are tubeless, hence better suited to Schwalbe ONE tubeless tyres

    Everything else, the minimal extra stiffness, the extra mm width, the 20 grams less is all stuff you will never know about unless someone tells you.
    By all means buy what you want, but if you don't plan to run them tubeless you are just making your life more complicated.
  • mlgtmlgt Posts: 366
    As ever. Thank you Ugo.

    All this chit chat and Ive decided to stick to the R23's for now and then purchase a deeper dish later on.
    I don't think this thread has been a waste of time because it really has educated me and made me research and listen to the pro/cons of handbuilt vs factory.

    At the end of the day there isn't a right or wrong. It is dependant on what the rider wishes to have and I think if I was to go for an archetype it would be a placebo effect having known that it is a newer component and would in theory make me ride that little bit harder than before.

    I need to get fitter/stronger and then later in the year get a pair of handbuilt deeper section rims. I am now looking at 30mm - If there is such thing as an all purpose built wheel vs a good weather 38mm.

    Given the previous requirements would it be a good idea to use a 30mm for an old rounder compared to a 38mm? (just a last chance plea to spend some money haha)
    *I promise to buy a round of beer should we meet :) (terms and conditions apply)
    N2 - SW1

    Canyon Endurace 9.0
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    I remeber the first road bike i got in 2007 (always rode mtbs before that) i could not for the life of me get the tyres on and off the rims. So i learnt I was not doing it for a living then. As most rims will eventually become tubeless compartible what are you all going to do in a few years when tubeless tyres are the norm? I have never subscribed to the notion that just because something seems hard you should not try get better at it. Avoiding what seems hard whatever it is means one day when you are faced with it what do you do.

    If you want easy tyre fitting then the archetype or the kinlin xc 279 is probably the best modern rim to go for with the conti gp4000s tyres or some michelins that i can't remember.

    The weight difference is more like 40g between the sl23 (440g) and the archtype (480g) still the archetype is a better all rounder than the pacenti simply because it is cheaper. The pacenti is rim more suited to that sunny day bike with flash kit than an all year round rim for simply riding. Oddly enough the archtype can be can tubeless too.

    Sticking to the wheel you have got unless they are giving you problems is never a bad idea.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,092
    yaya wrote:

    You have to be careful with wheel weights, as often they use cheap taiwanese hubs, which happen to be also very light to come out with stunning figures.
    For instance, this set (Hope hubs, brass nipples) weighs 1570 grams, however, with a pair of Bitex or Ebay hubs would be 1460 grams and with alloy nipples it would go down to 1430 grams... if I then used DT revolution spokes even on the drive side instead of the Alpine 3, then it would go down to 1390 grams. Any of these "upgrades" would bring a number of problems and you have to ask yourself whether it is worth it to seek "the figure" or it is best to seek the quality.

    DSC_4029_zpsvolzyvnv.jpg
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    now is that the tubeless tyre on those RR440 rims? If so great as I have not tried them with tubeless. I was going to rerim my RR415 wheels with RR440 rims and fitting tubeless tyres would be ideal.

    Bitex hubs are a bit like light weight novatec's fine in the dry expose them to too much wet winter weather and you will be changing bearings quickly. It is always essential to read the wheel specification when decding on weight. Low weight can only be achieved with tricks which does not necessarlily make the wheel a bad one but it does not make it an all rounder. What ugo has built above is a good allrounder which suits most people.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,092
    now is that the tubeless tyre on those RR440 rims? If so great as I have not tried them with tubeless.

    They are tubeless rims, so yes, tubeless tyres all the way
    The Schawlbe 25 comes at 25 on those. It mounts easily, jumps on the ramps no problem and with sealant stays inflated no problem.
    I have also used the DT valves, which are perfect for these rims.
    When you use the rim tubeless, the tension drops about 15%, so it needs to be built on the limit for the asymmetric or above for the rear symmetric. The asymmetric on Hope has a tension spread of 1.5 to 1 (1200 to 800 N)
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    I do use these rims from time to time but have never tried them tubeless i will now. The tension drop is annoying in fact today i had a huge and uneven tension drop for a gator skin hardshell on a pacenti sl25 rim ( which mounted very easily by the way) but that was down to the tyre not seating properly. Once it had seated properly there was still an even 200N drop in tension and i had to raise it a bit. So its not just tubeless tyres that do this.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • mlgtmlgt Posts: 366
    So Ive been having some noise coming from the rear hub.

    Taking the cassette apart and inspecting the freehub I came across this.

    20150315_155956_resized.jpg

    Emailed Canyon and they said I had put the bike outside and dont clean the bike. So I will need to replace the freehub as it is not a manufacture defect. :(
    N2 - SW1

    Canyon Endurace 9.0
  • iPeteiPete Posts: 6,076
    Does it really need replacing, can't you just give it a clean and or service the bearings?
  • TheHoundTheHound Posts: 284
    So I've been keeping a close eye on the recent threads about various wheel options and have come up with what I think is a decent build. Feel free to say otherwise and pick fault.

    I'm 10st4/144lbs/65kg. So I'm a spinner rather than a churner.

    The wheels will be for dry summer use. I've got another set I'll switch to if it's raining. 20/24h, hopefully around the 1500g mark and less than £400

    Rims: Archetype H Plus Son
    These seem to be the go to wider rim. I'm aware the anodising wears off but seeing as they'll be summer best I guess this will take a while and all rims look censored after a while anyway.

    Spokes: Sapim Laser/alloy nips
    Much cheaper than the cx rays with barely any weight penalty. A bit of a drop in strength and fatigue, but as I'm pretty light they won't be under too much stress anyway I think? Alloy nips, to shave a few grams.

    Hubs: Novatec a291/f582
    Probably the most contentious choice in this build. I've seen a few threads where Ugo has slagged them off a bit. I know they're not the best sealed and the bearings are a bit cack. However these will be dry summer wheels and the bearings seem to be easily replaceable when they do go. I assume I can replace them with something a little hardier. Obviously the allure of these is weight saving at a reasonable price.

    So there we go, anything I've missed?

    Let the flames begin!!!
    Bianchi Intenso Athena
    Handbuilt Wheels by dcrwheels.co.uk
    Fizik Cyrano R3 Handlebars
    Selle Italia SLR Kit Carbonio Flow saddle
    Deda Superleggero seatpost
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,092
    They will come at 1450 grams.

    I would sacrifice the drive side and build it with 12 DT Swiss Alpine 3 instead. You will gain 40 grams and a lot of stiffness, as well as durability.

    This habit of building rear drive sides 24 H with Sapim Laser is a bit censored to be honest
  • TheHoundTheHound Posts: 284
    Cheers Ugo, I'll look into that.
    Bianchi Intenso Athena
    Handbuilt Wheels by dcrwheels.co.uk
    Fizik Cyrano R3 Handlebars
    Selle Italia SLR Kit Carbonio Flow saddle
    Deda Superleggero seatpost
  • apreadingapreading Posts: 4,533
    Personally, I wouldnt choose alloy nipples - the weight saving just isnt worth the downside in my opinion. Thats just my opinion of course...
  • FransJacquesFransJacques Posts: 2,148
    Just do the alloy nips on the front.

    Or drive your wheel builder crazy and do NDS alu with DS brass. They love that.
    When a cyclist has a disagreement with a car; it's not who's right, it's who's left.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Rims weigh 960g. Hubs are 325g for the sb version and spokes are 240g. Total is 1505g not 1450g. Done a couple of sets never been the weight ugo has given. If the sb sl hubs are used you would save 35g Bring weight down to 1470g.

    If the wheel is built properly then alloy nipples will not pose a problem as the wheel will be stiff enough to never need truing. All my personal wheels have alloy nipples and i know they are probably seized but i never need to touch them so who cares. Also the novatec hubs are not sensible so why go sensible with the nipples. Brass nipples are certainly cheaper and would add 35g so it not alot.

    While alpine triple butted spokes ds rear will do what ugo says bear in mind if the wheel is built with lasers or cx rays it is still very stiff and if it built properly then it wont be a problem For a lighter rider. My personal opinion on this if you think you need triple butted spokes on a 24 spoke rear then why not have a 28 spoke rear instead. The wheel will be stiffer and even more durable still. A 28 spoke rear normally gets built with lasers nds and sapim race ds.

    A 20f/28r archetype build with novatec a291/f482 sb hubs and sapkm laser spokes front/nds rear and sapkm race ds rear. Alloy nipples too weight would be 1545g.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,092
    SB SL, yes, those are the ones I used for the 1450 g sets. 1470? Possibly, maybe I was breathing when I weighed them...

    ALL wheel building and hand built questions now on this thread
  • TheHoundTheHound Posts: 284
    Sapim claim their alloy nipples are stronger, lighter and more resistant to corrosion than brass nipples.

    Is this right? I assume they can't just out rightly lie about this stuff.
    Bianchi Intenso Athena
    Handbuilt Wheels by dcrwheels.co.uk
    Fizik Cyrano R3 Handlebars
    Selle Italia SLR Kit Carbonio Flow saddle
    Deda Superleggero seatpost
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,092
    TheHound wrote:
    Sapim claim their alloy nipples are stronger, lighter and more resistant to corrosion than brass nipples.

    Is this right? I assume they can't just out rightly lie about this stuff.

    It all depends how you measure these things. Zipp use Sapim nipples and it's not uncommon to find them seized... Easton use Sapim nipples and it's not at all uncommon to find them seized.
    It's a devisive issue and each one has a different opinion. I find 90% of the people who want hand built wheels don't want alloy nipples, as many come from factory wheels that had that kind of issues.
    Lightweight is sexier and sells and if you have to make a living selling wheels, I see the appeal in using them. The market has become so volatile that most people like the idea of hand builot wheels, but then upgrade them every year... in that scenario alloy nipples have their place. If you want to keep them for five to ten years instead, then maybe not.

    However, if you think 200 milligrams of aluminium alloy under 130 Kg of tension, subject to 8 million load/unload cycles over 10,000 miles is good enough engineering, then go ahead... :wink:
  • Do you feel lucky punk? well do you?
  • matt-hmatt-h Posts: 847
    TheHound wrote:

    Rims: Archetype H Plus Son
    These seem to be the go to wider rim. I'm aware the anodising wears off but seeing as they'll be summer best I guess this will take a while and all rims look censored after a while anyway.
    !

    i dont see this.
    Mine have worn off and they look like normal rims.
    They are brilliant rims and very easy to fit tyres on.

    Matt
  • eddiefiolaeddiefiola Posts: 344
    Have a set of Archetypes 28/32 on Novatec A171 F172 hubs, built up by Malcolm thecycleclinic last year, done around 12,000km so far, in all weathers. rear hub has just gone a bit 'crunchy' and the freehub is pretty scarred up from cassettes chewing in.

    Now need to find someone to service the hub and possibly replace the freehub, or attempt myself.

    Love the wheels, at 97-100kgs i needed something stuff and durable.
  • apreadingapreading Posts: 4,533
    eddiefiola wrote:
    Have a set of Archetypes 28/32 on Novatec A171 F172 hubs, built up by Malcolm thecycleclinic last year, done around 12,000km so far, in all weathers. rear hub has just gone a bit 'crunchy' and the freehub is pretty scarred up from cassettes chewing in.

    Now need to find someone to service the hub and possibly replace the freehub, or attempt myself.

    Love the wheels, at 97-100kgs i needed something stuff and durable.

    Freehub probably still OK even if cut up a bit by the cassette. You can file down any bits that make it difficult to put cassette on/off and just keep on riding it.
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