Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

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  • timothyw
    timothyw Posts: 2,482
    If he wants to use the same hubs again, then it's anything you like - just buy new spokes to suit.

    If he wants to reuse hubs and spokes, then it's probably best to go Archetype again, although you can replace with a different rim of the same ERD (+- a mm or two depending on nipples - you can buy longer nipples if required).

    Given the cost of CX-Ray spokes I'd suggest a new Archetype rim is probably the best option, unless he's feeling particularly flush.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    How far have those wheels gone? If they have done over 8000 miles I would replace spokes and all... they might not do another 8000 and then it's a game of fixing broken spokes.... spokes don't last forever, especially in lower spoke count (28 and below). As above, with new spokes any rim is viable... wait for the new Open PROz?
    left the forum March 2023
  • gratziani
    gratziani Posts: 46
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    How far have those wheels gone? If they have done over 8000 miles I would replace spokes and all... they might not do another 8000 and then it's a game of fixing broken spokes.... spokes don't last forever, especially in lower spoke count (28 and below). As above, with new spokes any rim is viable... wait for the new Open PROz?

    Prob done about 10000 miles on them , he said he wants to replace spokes and rims as starting to look old and used, not many winter miles on them though
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    gratziani wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    How far have those wheels gone? If they have done over 8000 miles I would replace spokes and all... they might not do another 8000 and then it's a game of fixing broken spokes.... spokes don't last forever, especially in lower spoke count (28 and below). As above, with new spokes any rim is viable... wait for the new Open PROz?

    Prob done about 10000 miles on them , he said he wants to replace spokes and rims as starting to look old and used, not many winter miles on them though

    Miles are miles, spokes don't know which season it is... on a rebuild after 10,000 miles I would replace them... unless it's a 32 or 36
    left the forum March 2023
  • gingermagician
    gingermagician Posts: 326
    Looking for a bit of help with the spec of what will be my first self-built wheel build. Planning something ok in terms of weight with wide(ish) rims, but also not exorbitant in terms of cost. No point going crazy first time out.

    Was thinking:

    - DT Swiss 350 or Hope Pro4 hubs
    - DT Swiss 460 rims
    - DT Comp spokes, black (+ brass nipples)
    - 28 rear (2 or 3 cross?)/24 front (radial). For reference, I weigh 80kg.

    Any issues I need to be aware of with this sort of spec? Hub flange measurements ok with these rims? Am I in the right ballpark with spoke count? Wheels will mainly be ridden in decent conditions, as I have an Ultegra/Archetype pair I ride through winter.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    GingerMagician wrote:
    Looking for a bit of help with the spec of what will be my first self-built wheel build. Planning something ok in terms of weight with wide(ish) rims, but also not exorbitant in terms of cost. No point going crazy first time out.

    Was thinking:

    - DT Swiss 350 or Hope Pro4 hubs
    - DT Swiss 460 rims
    - DT Comp spokes, black (+ brass nipples)
    - 28 rear (2 or 3 cross?)/24 front (radial). For reference, I weigh 80kg.

    Any issues I need to be aware of with this sort of spec? Hub flange measurements ok with these rims? Am I in the right ballpark with spoke count? Wheels will mainly be ridden in decent conditions, as I have an Ultegra/Archetype pair I ride through winter.

    Sound good
    left the forum March 2023
  • gratziani
    gratziani Posts: 46
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    gratziani wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    How far have those wheels gone? If they have done over 8000 miles I would replace spokes and all... they might not do another 8000 and then it's a game of fixing broken spokes.... spokes don't last forever, especially in lower spoke count (28 and below). As above, with new spokes any rim is viable... wait for the new Open PROz?

    Prob done about 10000 miles on them , he said he wants to replace spokes and rims as starting to look old and used, not many winter miles on them though

    Miles are miles, spokes don't know which season it is... on a rebuild after 10,000 miles I would replace them... unless it's a 32 or 36

    They are 24/28 , i have told him about the open pro and they sound like they could be the goers, cheers for help
  • shortfall
    shortfall Posts: 3,288
    Here's a quick review of my Borg 31 tubeless wheelset.

    Having read lots of positive reviews I was looking to buy a set of tubeless wheels and tyres. I was more than happy with my Zondas but you know how it is with bike stuff and the urge to treat yourself? Having asked a few questions and read lots of info on this particular thread I decided to go ahead and get a set of Borgs from Malcolm at Cycle Clinic. We discussed my requirements via email and the aluminium semi aero rim laced onto Miche Primato hubs seemed to fit the bill. I went for a set of the 25mm IRCC Formula Pro RBCC tyres as they appeared to offer a good balance between grip, weight and durability. The price for these was an eye watering 50 quid a piece but I am assured they last a lot longer than regular tyres so as the wheelset was tremendous value at only a touch over 350 quid I bit the bullet. When the wheels were delivered there had been a mix up and they were minus the tyres but a phonecall to Malcolm and he sorted it out. In fact not only did he sort it out he went more than the extra mile and then some and he offered customer service that was absolutely second to none to rectify the mistake.

    First things first, I gave them the obligatory spin in my fingers and I was mightily impressed with the smoothness of the Miche hubs which felt up there with the Record hubs I've previously had and of those on my Zondas. Time will tell if they stay that way however but I guess cartridge bearings are easy enough to switch out come the time. Next I faced the challenge of mounting the tyres on the rims. I watched the How To video on Malcolm's website and it all looked pretty straightforward...........Except that it wasn't. They were an absolute b1tch to get on and I literally skinned my thumbs in the process. The supplied VAR tyre levers helped but it was a real struggle. No doubt there's a bit of technique involved that I haven't mastered yet but I'm not looking forward to taking them off when the time comes! When I eventually got them on I gave them a quick squirt of sealant and I was good to go.

    So how do they ride? Pretty damn good I have to say. I only went out for a couple of hours but they feel every bit as stiff as my Zondas with no brake rub under acceleration or out of the saddle efforts. I ran them at 90 psi (I'm 17 stone and will experiment with pressures) but they rolled really well and gave a super smooth and supple ride. I'm not going to rush to any judgements after one ride in good weather, but first impressions are really positive. Cycle Clinic were really helpful and provided the sort of customer service some of the big online retailers can only dream of. Big thumbs up to them! I'll update this review after a few more miles!
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    "Looking for a bit of help with the spec of what will be my first self-built wheel build. Planning something ok in terms of weight with wide(ish) rims, but also not exorbitant in terms of cost. No point going crazy first time out.

    Was thinking:

    - DT Swiss 350 or Hope Pro4 hubs
    - DT Swiss 460 rims
    - DT Comp spokes, black (+ brass nipples)
    - 28 rear (2 or 3 cross?)/24 front (radial). For reference, I weigh 80kg."

    the hope hubs will provide for a latterally stiffer wheel thats the difference.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    "Mate has some dura ace hubs with CX rays on Archetypes , wheels about four year old.

    What are his options for using the hubs again ? same again , or can he go carbon or better rims about now "

    The HED belgium + is ERD 592mm and the Pacenti Forza is 591mm. DT Swiss R460 is every bit as good as the Archetype as is alot cheaper and so is the Kinlin XR22T rim in fact both those rims are stiffer and cheaper so better.

    I would replace spokes as well.

    New open Pro wont be here till september at the earliest according to the mavic rep.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    shortfall - it is difficult to feel wheel stiffness when riding. All you can notice if you get brake rub or not and that actually has not a great deal to with lateral stiffness. For example the most flexible wheels (laterally) I have ever built Mavic GEL280 rim 32H with sapim race spokes on novatec hubs dont move much when out of the saddle but they are very flexible.
    I think BR did a article recently on this and found the same thing. But I am not sure why but rim depth has an influcence but I do not know if it the rim deoth itself or another factor that rim depth influences as a consequence.

    I strongly the suspect brake rub is an interplay or mismatch between lateral wheel stiffness and rear triangle frame stiffness. When the two values are very different brake rub can result.

    I say this just to put context into you write up.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • sloppyschleckonds
    sloppyschleckonds Posts: 8,019
    thecycleclinic wrote:

    New open Pro wont be here till september at the earliest according to the mavic rep.

    Lol
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • shortfall
    shortfall Posts: 3,288
    thecycleclinic wrote:
    shortfall - it is difficult to feel wheel stiffness when riding. All you can notice if you get brake rub or not and that actually has not a great deal to with lateral stiffness. For example the most flexible wheels (laterally) I have ever built Mavic GEL280 rim 32H with sapim race spokes on novatec hubs dont move much when out of the saddle but they are very flexible.
    I think BR did a article recently on this and found the same thing. But I am not sure why but rim depth has an influcence but I do not know if it the rim deoth itself or another factor that rim depth influences as a consequence.

    I strongly the suspect brake rub is an interplay or mismatch between lateral wheel stiffness and rear triangle frame stiffness. When the two values are very different brake rub can result.

    I say this just to put context into you write up.

    Interesting theory. Makes sense i suppose.
  • gingermagician
    gingermagician Posts: 326
    GingerMagician wrote:
    Looking for a bit of help...

    - DT Swiss 350 or Hope Pro4 hubs
    - DT Swiss 460 rims
    - DT Comp spokes, black (+ brass nipples)
    - 28 rear (2 or 3 cross?)/24 front (radial). For reference, I weigh 80kg.
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Sound good
    thecycleclinic wrote:
    the hope hubs will provide for a latterally stiffer wheel thats the difference.
    Thanks Paolo and Malcolm for the feedback. Am definitely going with the Hope option (I meant the new road-specific RS4 btw, rather than Pro4).

    Do either of you have a view on whether it worth going for the steel free hub body option? What sort of weight penalty will that result in?
  • bigdaveskinnytyre
    bigdaveskinnytyre Posts: 218
    Hi folks,

    I'm getting the parts together for a new road disc build, currently looking at Hope RS4 Centre lock hubs with H Plus Son Hydra rims. I have however, noticed that Hunt sell their rims as spare parts; does anyone have any thoughts on the 4 Season Gravel Disc?

    The profile is similar but 1mm taller 30g lighter and about £19 per rim cheaper.
    Nil Points
  • jdee84
    jdee84 Posts: 291
    bigdaveskinnytyre wrote:
    Hi folks,

    I'm getting the parts together for a new road disc build, currently looking at Hope RS4 Centre lock hubs with H Plus Son Hydra rims. I have however, noticed that Hunt sell their rims as spare parts; does anyone have any thoughts on the 4 Season Gravel Disc?

    The profile is similar but 1mm taller 30g lighter and about £19 per rim cheaper.


    You might be better trying to find out what rim it is and shopping around, pretty sure theire race season aero wide rim is a Kinlin XR31t which they're selling for £89 while the same rim can be found from a wheelbuilder for £55
  • torino
    torino Posts: 46
    Hi everyone,
    I'm new in this forum this is my first post.
    I'm also new to wheelbuilding. In fact I decided to build a new set of wheels to replace my old Eurus wheelset. This is a good wheelset but I wanted to try something wider (my Eurus is 15C). I also decided to stop using factory wheelsets because the maintenance cost is so much higher (once I had to replace a spoke - 10EUR + shipping only for 1 spoke). Also, usually when the rim is gone the whole wheel is gone, as buying a new rim and relacing is totally uneconomical. There is not much you can do with the hub either.
    Anyway, after a lot of reading I decided for the following:
    - Campa Record hubs (everyone talks good about them, price is ok - almost the same as DT350 if you factor in the quick-releases, if you also wanted to have DT quick-releases...). Also to match the Campa group... DT350 was out because of the narrow flange spacing.
    - DT R460 rims - these are good value for the money, at less than 30EUR each. Thought about offset drilling but then the RR411 costs more than double. I also wanted something easy to mount tires on (will run with tubes).
    - Dt Comp spokes, 3x cross front and rear
    - Squorx ALU nipples
    So the parts are arriving and yesterday I was inspecting these Squorx nipples and found something that I didn't really like. The thread hole in the back side of the nipple is not centered on the nipple. To make it easier to understand I took a picture:
    1zc1qgo.jpg
    So you see that on one side the nipple wall is very thin and on the other very thick.
    I received a pack with around 70 nipples and most of them are like that. However some are more or less centered.
    So because of my lack of experience I have to ask whether this is normal or not?
    Thanks for any advice!!!
  • onyourright
    onyourright Posts: 509
    This is a sign from above to correct your mistake and buy brass nipples before you start building. The rest of the wheel sounds so sensible and classy – why use aluminium nipples?

    (I don’t know if the non-concentric holes are a problem. Wait for a wheel guy to come along.)
  • torino
    torino Posts: 46
    OnYourRight wrote:
    This is a sign from above to correct your mistake and buy brass nipples before you start building. The rest of the wheel sounds so sensible and classy – why use aluminium nipples?

    Maybe I will do that. And in the process also forget about this Squorx Pro Lock thing. Just plain brass nipples.

    Honestly I don't know why I chose these nipples. I'm trying to follow everything R. Musson writes in his book for this first build, and he clearly says that "brass nipples are the best choice for all wheels". Still time to remedy this.

    Pro Lock probably mess up a bit the tension feeling (thread feels tighter than they really are) and I also don't want that for my first build...
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    The squorqx nipples will be like that to reduce the bend in the spoke at the nipple. Sensible idea really. I have used 10,000 of sapim nipples and not had issues. You get more wind up with brass nipples for starter. If you use a good spoke prep with alloy nipples corrosion is not an issue. build time is speed up and you get to use self locking nipples. Try self locking brass nipples on thinner spokes and wind up can be so bad that getting the wheel built is a challange. Black brass nipples are the worst. I have stopped buying them and refuse to use them as sometimes the wind up is so awful I cannot actually built the wheel.

    So brass is best line should have alot of caveats.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • gratziani
    gratziani Posts: 46
    thecycleclinic wrote:
    "Mate has some dura ace hubs with CX rays on Archetypes , wheels about four year old.

    What are his options for using the hubs again ? same again , or can he go carbon or better rims about now "

    The HED belgium + is ERD 592mm and the Pacenti Forza is 591mm. DT Swiss R460 is every bit as good as the Archetype as is alot cheaper and so is the Kinlin XR22T rim in fact both those rims are stiffer and cheaper so better.

    I would replace spokes as well.

    New open Pro wont be here till september at the earliest according to the mavic rep.

    What size spokes will he need or does that depend on hubs ?
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    also depends on the lacing pattern.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • gratziani
    gratziani Posts: 46
    thecycleclinic wrote:
    also depends on the lacing pattern.

    He had 24 front and 28 back, they were built by Strada originally
  • mankybianchi
    mankybianchi Posts: 117
    Hi, looking for advice please for a new fixed wheel/wheelset used on the road for general distance riding, not racing or commuting.

    Currently riding 32 plain gauge Planet X large flange track hub on Open Pro rear and 32 double butted campag road hub on Open Pro front. I'm after something more like my current geared setup which is also 32 (f + r) Sapim lasers on front and non-drive side with Sapim race on drive side.

    I was thinking possibly the Swiss DT460 or Kinlin XR22 on Miche hubs but unsure of spokes or spoke count.

    My weight doesn't vary much from 75kg and I ain't a powerhouse.

    Cheers
  • keezx
    keezx Posts: 1,323
    I'm 80 kg and never had any problem in 2 years with R460's on Miche hubs, 28/24
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    MankyBianchi wrote:
    Hi, looking for advice please for a new fixed wheel/wheelset used on the road for general distance riding, not racing or commuting.

    Currently riding 32 plain gauge Planet X large flange track hub on Open Pro rear and 32 double butted campag road hub on Open Pro front. I'm after something more like my current geared setup which is also 32 (f + r) Sapim lasers on front and non-drive side with Sapim race on drive side.

    I was thinking possibly the Swiss DT460 or Kinlin XR22 on Miche hubs but unsure of spokes or spoke count.

    My weight doesn't vary much from 75kg and I ain't a powerhouse.

    Cheers

    JUst replace the spokes with Sapim Laser... simple
    left the forum March 2023
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    well you seem to have a plan. the wider rim will improve the ride quality a bit and you can use thinner spokes.

    The hubs are a fine choice as well or you could wear out your existing rims first.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    gratziani.

    If he had 24 radial 278mm would have been used front and for a 28H rear laced 2x 282mm DS and 284mm NDS should have been used.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • pdisley
    pdisley Posts: 4
    So my current wheel are just about on there last legs (fulcrum Quottros) and i'd like to replace them with a pair of hand built wheels . My problem is every where i look on-line are quoting , between 2-3 weeks for them to be built . My question is does anyone know of a shop that might have some pre builds in stock . I way around 82kg and my budget in between £300 & £400 . i'd really appreciate any comments
    Thanks
  • mrb123
    mrb123 Posts: 4,833
    pdisley wrote:
    So my current wheel are just about on there last legs (fulcrum Quottros) and i'd like to replace them with a pair of hand built wheels . My problem is every where i look on-line are quoting , between 2-3 weeks for them to be built . My question is does anyone know of a shop that might have some pre builds in stock . I way around 82kg and my budget in between £300 & £400 . i'd really appreciate any comments
    Thanks

    http://www.stradawheels.co.uk/product-c ... ck-wheels/

    I think Just Riding Along may have an in stock page too.

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