Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

ugo.santalucia

torino wrote:

Also shallow, but I like that the R460 is U-shaped. Feels more modern.

It would be nice to see the R460 asymmetric, but that would basically kill the RR411.

yeah, when I read that the 411 were actually 435g, then it did seem a lot more money for very little weight saving. I've never had problems with rear wheels, so I don't really need asymmetric rims, but then again, I do tend to fit more spokes...

This time I've gone 24 front and 32 rear for 71 kg

cycleclinic

my main issue with the r460 is the kinlin x22t exists. the kinlin rim allows tubeless tyres tp set up more easily and the asymmetric rear makes it more useful for heavier riders using tubeless tyres. so while the r460 will work quite well in most cases the fact that tubeless tyres wont go up with a track pump alone means dt swiss could have done better. the shape is nice those.

bmxboy10

ugo.santalucia wrote:

torino wrote:

Also shallow, but I like that the R460 is U-shaped. Feels more modern.

It would be nice to see the R460 asymmetric, but that would basically kill the RR411.

yeah, when I read that the 411 were actually 435g, then it did seem a lot more money for very little weight saving. I've never had problems with rear wheels, so I don't really need asymmetric rims, but then again, I do tend to fit more spokes...

This time I've gone 24 front and 32 rear for 71 kg

I thought you were waiting for the Mavics! Called Mavic this week and they advised that they would be available in August.

ugo.santalucia

solboy10 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

torino wrote:

Also shallow, but I like that the R460 is U-shaped. Feels more modern.

It would be nice to see the R460 asymmetric, but that would basically kill the RR411.

yeah, when I read that the 411 were actually 435g, then it did seem a lot more money for very little weight saving. I've never had problems with rear wheels, so I don't really need asymmetric rims, but then again, I do tend to fit more spokes...

This time I've gone 24 front and 32 rear for 71 kg

I thought you were waiting for the Mavics! Called Mavic this week and they advised that they would be available in August.

I want the bike ready for the 400 km Audax in June. I bought the 460 because they are cheap, so I won't weep like a willow when I will eventually replace them with the Open PRO... I might even keep them and run them until they are concave

cycleclinic

available in theory in august. supply will be sporadic for a few months. this always the way.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

available in theory in august. supply will be sporadic for a few months. this always the way.

I want to wait for reviews to see if the Exalith is worth the extra money over the standard one

shortfall

Shortfall wrote:

Here's a quick review of my Borg 31 tubeless wheelset.

Having read lots of positive reviews I was looking to buy a set of tubeless wheels and tyres. I was more than happy with my Zondas but you know how it is with bike stuff and the urge to treat yourself? Having asked a few questions and read lots of info on this particular thread I decided to go ahead and get a set of Borgs from Malcolm at Cycle Clinic. We discussed my requirements via email and the aluminium semi aero rim laced onto Miche Primato hubs seemed to fit the bill. I went for a set of the 25mm IRCC Formula Pro RBCC tyres as they appeared to offer a good balance between grip, weight and durability. The price for these was an eye watering 50 quid a piece but I am assured they last a lot longer than regular tyres so as the wheelset was tremendous value at only a touch over 350 quid I bit the bullet. When the wheels were delivered there had been a mix up and they were minus the tyres but a phonecall to Malcolm and he sorted it out. In fact not only did he sort it out he went more than the extra mile and then some and he offered customer service that was absolutely second to none to rectify the mistake.

First things first, I gave them the obligatory spin in my fingers and I was mightily impressed with the smoothness of the Miche hubs which felt up there with the Record hubs I've previously had and of those on my Zondas. Time will tell if they stay that way however but I guess cartridge bearings are easy enough to switch out come the time. Next I faced the challenge of mounting the tyres on the rims. I watched the How To video on Malcolm's website and it all looked pretty straightforward...........Except that it wasn't. They were an absolute b1tch to get on and I literally skinned my thumbs in the process. The supplied VAR tyre levers helped but it was a real struggle. No doubt there's a bit of technique involved that I haven't mastered yet but I'm not looking forward to taking them off when the time comes! When I eventually got them on I gave them a quick squirt of sealant and I was good to go.

So how do they ride? Pretty damn good I have to say. I only went out for a couple of hours but they feel every bit as stiff as my Zondas with no brake rub under acceleration or out of the saddle efforts. I ran them at 90 psi (I'm 17 stone and will experiment with pressures) but they rolled really well and gave a super smooth and supple ride. I'm not going to rush to any judgements after one ride in good weather, but first impressions are really positive. Cycle Clinic were really helpful and provided the sort of customer service some of the big online retailers can only dream of. Big thumbs up to them! I'll update this review after a few more miles!

A quick update on my review. I've racked up a few hundred miles now on my Borgs and I'm pleased to say I'm absolutely blown away by them. Being new to tubeless it's hard to pinpoint whether the speed and ride quality comes from the wider Kinlin rims or the Formula Pro RBCC tyres. It's probably a combination of both I suppose, but the net effect is that I am consistently getting PBs on Strava segments and I can ride for longer before getting fatigued. The way the wheel/tyre combo rolls is something to believe. I'm a pinch over 17 stone and have settled on 90 psi as the best pressure for my kind of riding and this gives a super smooth and supple ride and amazing grip in corners. I can only guess in the absence of any sort of data, but I think that because the 25mm tyres sit a bit fatter on the wider rims, the lightbulb effect of a bulging sidewall is avoided which translates into lower rolling resistance, better wear and more predictable feel and grip. I suppose that because I'm heavy relative to the average cyclist that any deficiencies in the standard clincher rim/tyre set up is magnified. In turn, small improvements such as switching to tubeless and wider rims have yielded huge benefits for me.

The Formula Pro tyres are crazily expensive but the rice bran compound provides an insane amount of grip in the dry. I find myself carrying way more speed into turns on my favourite descents and when I do hit the brakes I have so much more confidence than on previous set ups (which I thought were good at the time). Speaking of braking, I use BBB Campagnolo compatible pads and these work well on the Borg rims. As I keep my best bike for fair weather I can't comment on how the wheels and tyres perform in the wet but I imagine they'd be as good as anything else given their excellent performance in the dry. All in all I'm well chuffed. A great set of wheels and tyres for a (relatively) bargain price. Admittedly they're not bling, bling like some factory wheels but they're fully rebuildable with cheap and readily available spares. What's not to love about that?

bmxboy10

So I was all set on a set of r460s until Malcolm said the tubeless tyres won't inflate. Are they really that bad???

ugo.santalucia

solboy10 wrote:

So I was all set on a set of r460s until Malcolm said the tubeless tyres won't inflate. Are they really that bad???

I suppose it depends on the combo... I know a guy who went tubeless for the first time on DT 460 with a track pump. That said, if they don't go tubeless, I won't use them tubeless, it's not the end of the world to be honest... given the astronomical price and the availability of tyres still very patchy and not better than it was 3 years ago, I am getting a bit fed up to be honest... I almost got the feeling tubeless will always be niche and will never be mainstream

bmxboy10

ugo.santalucia wrote:

solboy10 wrote:

So I was all set on a set of r460s until Malcolm said the tubeless tyres won't inflate. Are they really that bad???

I suppose it depends on the combo... I know a guy who went tubeless for the first time on DT 460 with a track pump. That said, if they don't go tubeless, I won't use them tubeless, it's not the end of the world to be honest... given the astronomical price and the availability of tyres still very patchy and not better than it was 3 years ago, I am getting a bit fed up to be honest... I almost got the feeling tubeless will always be niche and will never be mainstream

I agree. I keep looking at the Corsa G+ or Specialized Turbo Cottons.

ugo.santalucia

solboy10 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

solboy10 wrote:

So I was all set on a set of r460s until Malcolm said the tubeless tyres won't inflate. Are they really that bad???

I suppose it depends on the combo... I know a guy who went tubeless for the first time on DT 460 with a track pump. That said, if they don't go tubeless, I won't use them tubeless, it's not the end of the world to be honest... given the astronomical price and the availability of tyres still very patchy and not better than it was 3 years ago, I am getting a bit fed up to be honest... I almost got the feeling tubeless will always be niche and will never be mainstream

I agree. I keep looking at the Corsa G+ or Specialized Turbo Cottons.

When I was in Italy, the local shop, which has over 200 bikes on the floor (including Cannondale, Bianchi, Trek and Wilier) didn't have a single road tubeless tyre... not one!

sloppyschleckonds

ugo.santalucia wrote:

solboy10 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

solboy10 wrote:

So I was all set on a set of r460s until Malcolm said the tubeless tyres won't inflate. Are they really that bad???

I suppose it depends on the combo... I know a guy who went tubeless for the first time on DT 460 with a track pump. That said, if they don't go tubeless, I won't use them tubeless, it's not the end of the world to be honest... given the astronomical price and the availability of tyres still very patchy and not better than it was 3 years ago, I am getting a bit fed up to be honest... I almost got the feeling tubeless will always be niche and will never be mainstream

I agree. I keep looking at the Corsa G+ or Specialized Turbo Cottons.

When I was in Italy, the local shop, which has over 200 bikes on the floor (including Cannondale, Bianchi, Trek and Wilier) didn't have a single road tubeless tyre... not one!

Until Velofex & Vittoria start making decent 25/28mm tubeless then you could be right

cycleclinic

You can setup tubeless tyres on the r8460 but it hit and miss. You can fit velox cloth tape to an r460 rim and still get tyres and tubes on without difficulty. The dt swiss tk540 is similar that way. I tried fitting a schwable marathon tubeless tyres to them. I forget how many layers of tape it required to get them to inflates compressed air but it was alot. So it will be tyre dependedant but i suspect more than two layes on stans tape will be required.

Tubeless tyre supply is demand dependent. The demand is not high enough to justify more production so supply remains sporadic. It is the chicken and egg problem. The main problem with tubeless tyres is the well known brands are producing so so tyres, i mean tyres that are similar to many good clinchers so many think there is little point in sticking with the tyre type given they cost more. This is why you dont find schwable tubeless tyre on my bikes, i tried and gave up after 6 months and went back to clicnhers.

torino

Finally finished my first wheel. It was a front wheel with Record hubs, DT460, Dt Comp spokes, 3x, Alu Squorx nipples.

I took my time and did every step calmly making sure I wouldn't miss anything. Total build time: around 5 hours (my wife said 7 hours, maybe she is right).

I had absolutely no idea of the correct tension, and when I thought it was starting to become ok, the TM-1 reader said 530kgf or so, so I kept tightening it a bit at a time.

Tension balance seems reasonable, the TM-1 meter is reading 20.5 in let's say 80% of the spokes, a few ones get 21 or maybe 21.5, and one or another get 20.0. A reading of 20 is 940kgf and 21 is 1050kgf. So if the thing is accurate I'm getting mostly 1030N with maybe some spokes at 1100N and some others at 950N. I hope this is not too bad.

The wheel feels pretty tight anyway. I would probably not go that far if I did not have the tensionmeter to give me a ballpark. Anybody knows what is the tension limit on the Record hubs?

Lateral trueness was kept stable during tension build-up.

Was a bit stupid with dishing and once I corrected it to the wrong side which augmented the error. Learned how to do it properly.

Wheel is true. Of course not 100% true, but quite good I think. Definitely better than my current Eurus.

Did not attempt to true radially. Seems ok.

ugo.santalucia

Looks good... front wheel doesn't need crazy tension and yours seems fine. Good rims typically build a vertically true wheel, it's only shite ones that need corrections

buckmulligan

So the R460 is in vogue now I see! I asked 3 months ago and you guys put me off buying them! How are you guys finding them?

What's the deal with this new Mavic Open Pro rim, is it just wider and tubeless compatible? I went back a couple of pages into the thread but didn't see any details other than Ugo's prediction that it's going to be amazing

ugo.santalucia

BuckMulligan wrote:

What's the deal with this new Mavic Open Pro rim, is it just wider and tubeless compatible? I went back a couple of pages into the thread but didn't see any details other than Ugo's prediction that it's going to be amazing

The only UST road rim on the market, which means it is tubelss, unlike all other rims which are unofficially "tubeless compatible". 19 mm internal width, for me the interesting things are the Exalith coating for those who are prepared to pay for it, which make it unique and the fact that visually it stands out from the crowd, thanks to the wobbly machined profile. As for the rim itself, it's probably neither better nor worse than another similar rim, like the Kinlin...

torino

BuckMulligan wrote:

So the R460 is in vogue now I see! I asked 3 months ago and you guys put me off buying them! How are you guys finding them?

What's the deal with this new Mavic Open Pro rim, is it just wider and tubeless compatible? I went back a couple of pages into the thread but didn't see any details other than Ugo's prediction that it's going to be amazing

R460's price is ok, shape is nice, width is fine. Initially I thought about the RR411, because of asym, but I think overall the rim is not so strong as the R460 otherwise DT wouldn't tell to lace them with the washers. Also very expensive. And of course the sym does not have version with 32 holes so that is a non-go with these hubs.

If Mavic's were available I would probably go with them, just more classy than DT's. Maybe when they are available.....

I wonder when DT will start offering some models with Exalith (or the like) coating, hopefully at a price we can digest.

buckmulligan

Interesting.

I'm not sold on the idea of tubeless yet; I just have visions of being stranded at the side of the road in the depths of winter with a flat tyre and sealant everywhere.

Torino, where did you buy your rims and spokes from? Rose Bikes works out at ~€100, which is considerably cheaper than the UK-based retailers, just wondering how long they likely take to deliver here.

drlodge

BuckMulligan wrote:

I'm not sold on the idea of tubeless yet; I just have visions of being stranded at the side of the road in the depths of winter with a flat tyre and sealant everywhere.

You do need a bit of courage to go tubeless, but I've had few problems so far:
- one tyre started leaking after some miles, air was leaking through the wall/rim interface. I binned the tyres but could have added sealant and swished it around a bit to seal it
- had one puncture, I carried on riding and it sealed after a few seconds. Pumped up the tyre and was on my way.

Small punctures should seal. If its large enough that it won't seal, then I reckon you'd have problems even if it were a tubed tyre. The Schwalbe ones were a bit fragile, have been using IRC roadlites and they've been faultless.

buckmulligan

I think all Schwalbe tyres are fragile, I've had nothing but problems and disappointment with them!

I know this is somewhat off the topic of the thread, but does tubeless feel appreciably smoother/faster than latex tubes?

ugo.santalucia

460 rims 75 quid including delivery at SJS, Sapim spokes around 30 quid anywhere

torino

BuckMulligan wrote:

Torino, where did you buy your rims and spokes from? Rose Bikes works out at ~€100, which is considerably cheaper than the UK-based retailers, just wondering how long they likely take to deliver here.

The rims I got from r2-bike and the spokes from rose. Rose is usually fast but sometimes they take a couple of days to confirm your payment and that delays the process...

buckmulligan

Ok, great, thanks!

And, very true Ugo, thanks for the heads up. I was looking at DT Swiss Competition spokes which are harder to get in the UK (in the right sizes), but I guess Sapim Race are essentially their equivalent? Is this overkill for winter wheelset and would I be better off just sticking with some plain gauge spokes like the Sapim Leader/DT Champion?

ugo.santalucia

Sapim Race are fine

timothyw

Go Sapim Race/DT Comp.

VS leader/champion there's not much in it price wise (perhaps £10 saving on a wheelset?), you save about 60g, they're more aero, and the accepted wisdom has it that you get a stronger wheel (as the skinny middle section can stretch more readily, taking the brunt of momentary shocks applied to the wheels, so saving the reinforced ends of the spoke).

drlodge

BuckMulligan wrote:

I know this is somewhat off the topic of the thread, but does tubeless feel appreciably smoother/faster than latex tubes?

The IRC Roadlites give a sublime feel, on a par with tubulars IMO. I'm using 23c at 80/90 psi.

ugo.santalucia

Bit of numbers for future reference.

Hope RS4 front: pitch circle 43 mm; flange half width 34.5 mm
Hope RS4 rear: pitch circle 47/57 mm flange half width 33.5/19mm

Also, I have measured the DT 460 ERD at 593 and NOT 596. I use the Gert Schraner method, so add 10 mm for each 12 mm nipple, clearly DT adds the full length of the nipple, but I don't understand why they don't end up with spokes which are too long... I seem to recall similar discrepancies with other DT Swiss rims I have used in the past

timothyw

Is it possible they're adding on a couple of mm for washers?

The 511 rim is listed in a few places as coming with nipples and washers although to be fair I've never seen the 460 advertised as such.

Have you seen what spoke length the DT calculator suggests when you put in the numbers for the hope hub and pick the 460?

torino

These RS4's measures are interesting. So tension balance is ~57%, better than DT's without having to resort to narrow flange spacing.

The higher-ends 411 and 511 come with washers and nipples (Squorx). The 460 does not come with anything. The ERD information on the 411 and 511 include the washers, which DT recommends you to use.

I've just built the second wheel yesterday with the 460 (rear). I used DT's spoke calculator and the ERD=596 (it loads automatically for their own rims). With Squorx nipples it is hard to see where the spoke is finishing in the built wheel. But there is still around ~10 threads left in the nipples of the front wheel. That would be too much I guess, but Squorx nipples are longer so maybe that is right.