Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

shortfall

pdisley wrote:

So my current wheel are just about on there last legs (fulcrum Quottros) and i'd like to replace them with a pair of hand built wheels . My problem is every where i look on-line are quoting , between 2-3 weeks for them to be built . My question is does anyone know of a shop that might have some pre builds in stock . I way around 82kg and my budget in between £300 & £400 . i'd really appreciate any comments
Thanks

Just wait the 2-3 weeks. What's the hurry?

pdisley

Because the bearings absolutely knackered .I've had a change of plans with my bikes , I'm back on my old ribble which was set up on my turbo , so i wasn't planning to getting new wheels

cycleclinic

Change the bearings and freehub then. Having a spare set of wheels is a good idea for regular riders but binnjng wheels for having worn cartridge bearings is just daft.

turbotommy

I'm trying to track down a supplier of replacement bearings for my zipp 188 v9 rear hub. The bearings I want I believe are '61903'. Does anyone know a European / U.K. Supplier? I've been and will continue to search the interwebz but I'm not having much luck...

ugo.santalucia

TurboTommy wrote:

I'm trying to track down a supplier of replacement bearings for my zipp 188 v9 rear hub. The bearings I want I believe are '61903'. Does anyone know a European / U.K. Supplier? I've been and will continue to search the interwebz but I'm not having much luck...

Do you know what clearance you need? Zipp hubs have a preload collar, so I assume you need bearings with C 3 clearance, although I am not sure... best to check on the manual or directly with Zipp

To source them, look no further than simplybearings

mankybianchi

Keezx wrote:

I'm 80 kg and never had any problem in 2 years with R460's on Miche hubs, 28/24

Good to know Would the spokes be Sapim race / DT equivelent or lighter?

ugo.santalucia wrote:

MankyBianchi wrote:

Hi, looking for advice please for a new fixed wheel/wheelset used on the road for general distance riding, not racing or commuting.

Currently riding 32 plain gauge Planet X large flange track hub on Open Pro rear and 32 double butted campag road hub on Open Pro front. I'm after something more like my current geared setup which is also 32 (f + r) Sapim lasers on front and non-drive side with Sapim race on drive side.

I was thinking possibly the Swiss DT460 or Kinlin XR22 on Miche hubs but unsure of spokes or spoke count.

My weight doesn't vary much from 75kg and I ain't a powerhouse.

Cheers

JUst replace the spokes with Sapim Laser... simple

thecycleclinic wrote:

well you seem to have a plan. the wider rim will improve the ride quality a bit and you can use thinner spokes.

The hubs are a fine choice as well or you could wear out your existing rims first.

Apologies if this is a bit of a daft question – if the spoke count is reduced eg 24 instead of 32, should the spokes be Sapim race rather than the lighter Lasers? And what is the benefit of fewer spokes?

tapieromateo

Hi Everyone. First time posting on the forum
After reading over 20-odd pages from the last 2 years on this thread, I still can't find the right 'combination' that seems appropiate for me. Please forgive, for I know this has been asked a thousand and 3 times

I'm looking for a set of wheels that can replace the ones that came with my bike (Specialized Tarmac Expert 2015), which are the Fulcrum Racing S-Four (Still to be determined what they DO contain, and what is their actual weight). I ride mostly on hills (anything from 4-24kms in length). 3-4 times a week, 60-80k, more on the weekends. Also every once in a while I get to be a cycling tour guide in Colombia, so we ride 400-700kms in a week, with over 10.000m of gain.

I´m 120 lbs (55kgs), 5´8 (1,72). So far what has caught my attention have been the following:

Factory built C24, but then for that kind of money, I can do a lot better, and that's where my morning has been, on this forum.
H Plus Son Archetype
Velocity A23
DT R411

I am not versed in hub-talk so I will believe anything that you tell me. I only know my current set has radial lacing front and Rear NDS, 3x on the rear.

Thanks in advance for your help

turbotommy

ugo.santalucia wrote:

TurboTommy wrote:

I'm trying to track down a supplier of replacement bearings for my zipp 188 v9 rear hub. The bearings I want I believe are '61903'. Does anyone know a European / U.K. Supplier? I've been and will continue to search the interwebz but I'm not having much luck...

Do you know what clearance you need? Zipp hubs have a preload collar, so I assume you need bearings with C 3 clearance, although I am not sure... best to check on the manual or directly with Zipp

To source them, look no further than simplybearings

Cheers Ugo much appreciated

I've emailed both zipp and simply bearings tonight asking the question regarding clearance. A byproduct of zipp altering their hub design so many times over the last few years seems to be a large number of different bearing sizes being used in their hubs. All a bit of a mine field for a novice like me. Still, I've learnt a bit more over the last couple of nights so all good.

cycleclinic

The code of the bearing is printed on the seal. if you require a C3 clearance bearing it will 61903C3 2RS if however a normal 61903 bearing will do that what it will have.

61903 is also known as 6903.

cycleclinic

tapieromateo the combo you want has been covered before.

The archetype is a rim which has been been bettered. The DT Swiss RR411 is an example, so is the Pacenti forza or the Kinlin XR22T.

Pick a rim with a asymmetric rear extrusion. Pick a wide rim. Pick a stiff rim (all of the above I mentioned are stiff). As for hubs pick something user servicable and simple which means pick one you can get parts for. that probably shimano for you as the other hubs I like I dont think are good distribution in SA but there is mail order I suppose. DT Swiss rear hubs will mean a less stiff rear wheel (latterally) than if a shimano Dura ace hub is used.

The spoke count for you could be 20F/24R. You are light enough to more than get away with CX-rays.

This has been covered before many times.

ugo.santalucia

tapieromateo wrote:

Hi Everyone. First time posting on the forum
After reading over 20-odd pages from the last 2 years on this thread, I still can't find the right 'combination' that seems appropiate for me. Please forgive, for I know this has been asked a thousand and 3 times

I'm looking for a set of wheels that can replace the ones that came with my bike (Specialized Tarmac Expert 2015), which are the Fulcrum Racing S-Four (Still to be determined what they DO contain, and what is their actual weight). I ride mostly on hills (anything from 4-24kms in length). 3-4 times a week, 60-80k, more on the weekends. Also every once in a while I get to be a cycling tour guide in Colombia, so we ride 400-700kms in a week, with over 10.000m of gain.

I´m 120 lbs (55kgs), 5´8 (1,72). So far what has caught my attention have been the following:

Factory built C24, but then for that kind of money, I can do a lot better, and that's where my morning has been, on this forum.
H Plus Son Archetype
Velocity A23
DT R411

I am not versed in hub-talk so I will believe anything that you tell me. I only know my current set has radial lacing front and Rear NDS, 3x on the rear.

Thanks in advance for your help

20/24 spokes for handbuilts, otherwise get a pair of light climbing wheels... the C24 you mention or something from the Mavic range. Stick to alloy rather than carbon if you have big mountains to descent

turbotommy

thecycleclinic wrote:

The code of the bearing is printed on the seal. if you require a C3 clearance bearing it will 61903C3 2RS if however a normal 61903 bearing will do that what it will have.

61903 is also known as 6903.

It's listed on the zipp site as 61903. There was a bearing on the simplybearing site listed as 6903 with the same dimensions so I did wonder about compatibility and I asked them last night. Cheers for the help.

For what it's worth people trying to replace bearings on 88/188 hubs should be aware that there is a difference between pre 2013, and v9 hubs, so check the small print on websites as some are just listed as 88/188.

tapieromateo

thecycleclinic wrote:

tapieromateo the combo you want has been covered before.

Thank you for your kind Reply.

Same to you, Ugo

keezx

MankyBianchi wrote:

Keezx wrote:

I'm 80 kg and never had any problem in 2 years with R460's on Miche hubs, 28/24

Good to know Would the spokes be Sapim race / DT equivelent or lighter?

I've used Race spokes rear right and front, Lasers rear left. Plenty stifness both.

mankybianchi

Thanks Keezx, good to know.

torino

Anybody already ventured with these 2:1 specific hubs?

http://www.halowheels.com/products/part/HUHAR6R2KC

cycleclinic

dont bother NDS flange is not far enough out board to compensate for the lack of NDS spokes. The NDS flange can be up to 49mm from centre and it should be. Couple that hub with a off set rim and you get superb tension balance and a stiff wheel.

You will be better off with a standard hub bluntly. that halo hub is also drilled for paired spoking on the drive side. good luck in working out spoke lengths for that.

I am looking at getting Miche to make me a proper 2:1 hub. Centre of NDS flange will be 49mm from hub centre J bend flanges so a forged shell. Shimano's specification for 11 speed road hubs to ensure good clearance between rear derailleirs means centre of DS side flange to hub centre will be 16mm. Flange PCD will be about 46mm as going larger does not increase the bracing angles (try working it out the difference is more than tiny). All increasing the PCD of the DS flange does is make a marginal improvement to torsional stiffness (not a problem to begin with) and space out the spoke holes useful for CNC machined hub shells.

tension balance for the hub would be 65% but with a rim with a 3mm offset that improves to 82% which is good enough.

Just waiting on a price for a run of the forged hub shells ( a tool will have to be made as it is a unique shell this not going to be cheap). Kinlin could do a run of 27H drilled rims as well as I could have some of the hubs drilled in 18:9 pattern.

Also I have a few hubs for 1:1 lacing with a the NDS flange at 49mm from centre of the hub. Oddly enough they build into fine wheels. The NDS spoke tension may be low but the wheel is stiff so the spokes dont de tension. There is an obession with trying to maximise spoke tension balance but there are other characteristics to a good wheel. first to be reliable it has to be stiff enough to prevent spokes from detensioning. bracing angles effect wheel stiffness and bracing angles determine tension balance but there are other factors that affect wheel stiffness and there are three kinds as well. so focusing on tension balance only in a designing a hub geometry means you are not optimising the resulting wheel.

I hope that put some reasoning to my statement don't bother with that halo hub.

timothyw

Another question mostly for Malcolm although others are welcome to chip in -

What will make a stronger rear wheel - Borg31 offset rims with 28 holes, or the Borg22 offset rims with 32 holes?

Is it worth switching to Sapim Force spokes for the 28 spoke build instead of Race (which I assume would be adequate on a 32 count)

I'm 120kg and ride a lot, but most of my miles are commuter so I'm not unduly concerned about having lots of excess spokes for cover if one pops - I'm unlikely to be in the middle of nowhere!

ugo.santalucia

TimothyW wrote:

Another question mostly for Malcolm although others are welcome to chip in -

What will make a stronger rear wheel - Borg31 offset rims with 28 holes, or the Borg22 offset rims with 32 holes?

Is it worth switching to Sapim Force spokes for the 28 spoke build instead of Race (which I assume would be adequate on a 32 count)

I'm 120kg and ride a lot, but most of my miles are commuter so I'm not unduly concerned about having lots of excess spokes for cover if one pops - I'm unlikely to be in the middle of nowhere!

120 kg and 28 spokes? Why? So you can save 64 grams? You weigh twice as much as a light rider, so you should use twice as many spokes to equalise the load... would he be able to get away with 14?

I said it elsewhere, spokes are not something to try and avoid... they are there to make a strong wheel... it's not a case of the fewer the better... see it as a tug of war thing... if you can have 32 folks pulling a rope, why would you want 28?

timothyw

Primarily in this instance because the Borg33 doesn't have an offset model with 32 hole drilling, and I'm intrigued to see what difference the offset spoke bed makes both in terms of tensions on the built wheel, and in practice when I actually ride the thing.

This is what leads to my question, as the borg22 does have a 32 spoke offset model.

I'd rather have 14 guys on one side of the rope and 14 on the other if they are both making a similar effort....

I'm not afraid of low spoke count wheels, I have a set of pro lite garda's with a 24 spoke rear and have only had to replace one spoke in a couple of thousand miles, which for me is good going!

ugo.santalucia

TimothyW wrote:

Primarily in this instance because the Borg33 doesn't have an offset model with 32 hole drilling, and I'm intrigued to see what difference the offset spoke bed makes both in terms of tensions on the built wheel, and in practice when I actually ride the thing.

This is what leads to my question, as the borg22 does have a 32 spoke offset model.

I'd rather have 14 guys on one side of the rope and 14 on the other if they are both making a similar effort....

I'm not afraid of low spoke count wheels, I have a set of pro lite garda's with a 24 spoke rear and have only had to replace one spoke in a couple of thousand miles, which for me is good going!

I have offset rims and non-offset rims... no difference at all. As a builder it is nicer to have an offset rim, closer tensions means you need less of it on the drive side, so less chance of the rim cracking... on the other hand some rims don't crack... Archetype, HED, Velocity don't crack, so no particular need for an offset.
Interestingly lower count are more likely to crack, hence you might want an offset.

If you are happy to replace spokes and that doesn't bother you, why do you want to spend more for handbuilts? The first thing to come to mind for artisan built wheels is reliability

timothyw

I'm going to be doing the build, so if an offset rim is nice for me to have as a builder then why wouldn't I get them?

I want to build my own wheels partly out of pride, partly out of necessity - I've had very underwhelming results with most stock wheels, as you can imagine.

If you can recommend me a factory wheelset that will be trouble free for a thousand miles then I'm happy to give them a go - realistically though I'm sure I can build something for myself that will be cheaper and probably better.

ugo.santalucia

TimothyW wrote:

I'm going to be doing the build, so if an offset rim is nice for me to have as a builder then why wouldn't I get them?

I want to build my own wheels partly out of pride, partly out of necessity - I've had very underwhelming results with most stock wheels, as you can imagine.

If you can recommend me a factory wheelset that will be trouble free for a thousand miles then I'm happy to give them a go - realistically though I'm sure I can build something for myself that will be cheaper and probably better.

Makes sense... why Kinlin? Not the strongest rims in the world... Archetype are more robust and so are Velocity Chukker... no need for offset there (as above). Which hubs are you going for?

timothyw

Probably the Miche Primato hubs, keep it cheap.

I do have a set of Archetype wheels so partly it's about having something new (built up on deore xt hubs for cross bike) - the Chukkers seem a reasonable option, although I'd be inclined to try the new DT 511's first if I'm going zero offset (had a set of DT 585s which did well before).

Ultimately the intention is to have a relatively lightweight and semi-aero wheelset to go on my TCR/Merckx for fast club runs and the odd crit, as compared to the more solid wheels that I have on my disk braked winter ride.

If the worst happens and a spokehole fails, or a couple of spokes go at least I'll be stranded on a day with reasonably nice weather, rather than in the rain in the middle of winter.

I've been very tempted by the Flo 30 rims but by the time you add on delivery and tax they soon become unfathomably expensive.

svetty

A133 rims look to be suitably deep and aero - may be a bit light for a Clyde though......

timothyw

Yeah, the AL33 should sooner or later be a nice alternative to the Flo, I am just about within the quoted limit for their 'super stiff' option, but internal nipples are a pain.

Be interesting to see if they actually start selling them soon - not sure if everyone has got their kickstarter wheels yet?

ugo.santalucia

TimothyW wrote:

Yeah, the AL33 should sooner or later be a nice alternative to the Flo, I am just about within the quoted limit for their 'super stiff' option, but internal nipples are a pain.

Be interesting to see if they actually start selling them soon - not sure if everyone has got their kickstarter wheels yet?

Wouldn't mind a pair of rims with internal nipples for myself... keeps me busy for longer building them...

They might even be better to avoid cracks... but yes, bit of a pain if you need to true them and you have tubs or tubeless

drlodge

I sold my internal nippled carbon tubulars you built for me, what a dreadful set of wheels :shock:

While I'm here...have been considering what to do with my harry Rowland wheels which are:
- Record 32H hubs
- Race/laser spokes
- Mavin Open Pro rims

I'm not using them at all, what tubeless rim would go well with these hubs (32 spokes)? I like the RR440s Ugo built for me, so perhaps something like them but a bit wider.

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

I sold my internal nippled carbon tubulars you built for me, what a dreadful set of wheels :shock:

While I'm here...have been considering what to do with my harry Rowland wheels which are:
- Record 32H hubs
- Race/laser spokes
- Mavin Open Pro rims

I'm not using them at all, what tubeless rim would go well with these hubs (32 spokes)? I like the RR440s Ugo built for me, so perhaps something like them but a bit wider.

Wait for the new Open PRO that will be the dog's bollox OR you can try the new DT swiss 411 available now, which are wider than yours and even lighter! With the latter you can keep the spokes, provided the builder uses the torx nipples supplied... ERD ends up being the same as an old Open PRO

drlodge

Thanks Ugo. It doesn't look like the symmetric RR411 (front) is available in 32T, only the asymmetric.

I was thinking about waiting for the New Open Pro...might ping Malcom later in the year unless you're back into the wheel building :roll: