Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

ugo.santalucia

dstev55 wrote:

To say I am sitting here scratching my head confused is an understatement...

There is so much conflicting advice around wheels that in all honesty I think I'm just going to keep my current wheels until I can begin to understand it all a bit more.

There is nothing to understand... the fact is wheels have been over-hyped, to the point that every gram saved or millimeter of rim added would appear to do miracles for you... guess what? They won't. They are all part of a myriad of very marginal gains that, IF bunched up, might give you a sizeable improvement, or at least one you can measure in seconds rather than decimals

dstev55

And that is what is so confusing, different people say different things. Most things you read say rotational weight makes a big difference however then I'm told it doesn't.

Bugger it, I might just find the nicest looking wheels I can find and stop thinking about it too much!

ugo.santalucia

dstev55 wrote:

And that is what is so confusing, different people say different things. Most things you read say rotational weight makes a big difference however then I'm told it doesn't.

Bugger it, I might just find the nicest looking wheels I can find and stop thinking about it too much!

Even if rotational weight was to make a big difference, try to attach 100 grams to a piece of string which is 35 cm long and see how much force it generates when you spin it fast...

And bear in mind if that works against you when you want to spin it faster, it also works for you when you try to slow it down

Do the same with 1 kg and you will see why it matters... hard to save one kg of rotational weight though...

shortfall

dstev55 wrote:

And that is what is so confusing, different people say different things. Most things you read say rotational weight makes a big difference however then I'm told it doesn't.

Bugger it, I might just find the nicest looking wheels I can find and stop thinking about it too much!

I think the point is that much of what you read on forums is just ordinary people (like me) passing on in good faith whatever it is they've read in their favourite cycling mag or forum. Things become received wisdom via this route, regardless of whether they happen to have any basis in fact. I have only been a member here for a few months but I can tell you that Ugo and CycleClinic who post on these threads have many years of wheel building experience between them and Malcolm (of CycleClinic) makes his living building wheels and from what he writes he actually races on them too. I would suggest then that you're not going to go too far wrong following their advice. I have done exactly this and bought a set of his wheels.

There is so much BS written about bikes, especially by biking journalists who should know better (but don't) and most of it is designed to convince you to part with large sums of money for what are very marginal gains at best. Don't get me wrong, it's nice to spoil yourself with lighter wheels, more aero frames, electronic shifting etc and if you can afford it and enjoy it then why not? But if you want to go faster or climb better or both then you maybe you can make a small difference by

a, spending 10 grand on this year's sub 5kg wonder bike,
or you can make a HUGE difference by

b, eating well, following a good training programme and working bloody hard!
Of course you can do both of these things but there's not really any point in doing A unless you're prepared to do B, apart from having the perceived pleasure of owning an expensive bike.

dstev55

Just the same old circular route of advice then....

cycleclinic

I think dstev55 is getting the wrong end of the stick.

To go faster reducing weight helps but it needs to be kg's saving 200g of your current wheels will do nothing.

Improving your aerodynamics will help. You need a good aero postiion and that does not have to be the drops all the time. you can make your position on the hoods a good one.
Clothing make a differnece and is cheaper than wheels.
Wheels and bike make a difference of the same order (I am not saying the same number) if going from say Mavic Krysiums to a 50mm deep wide carbon clincher as you get for a skinsuit compared to a normal club jersey in time saved or power.

Reducing weight by 2kg on a 10% climb will give you the same order of saving a aero wheelset or skin suit will give you but only on the climb. So reducing weight is not pointless but it needs to be part of shedding weight from your bike as whole. If your bike is 7kg then there is not much scope for that. Changing the wheels by themselves while fitting the same tyres, cassette e.t.c will not turn your bike into climber hense I dislike the term climbing wheels.

Wheels can make a difference but it is cumlative effect with other things. To say you will make more of a difference by training is missing the point. training helps more but the right kit helps at most levels of fittness.

so you have the right idea buy whatever you like the look of the most.
Check spares availability though as that can be the problem with some wheels.
Also dont think that spending more gets you more. It buys bling and lower weight sometimes but. The extra money you spend over £300 need to deliver more than just lower weight.

You wanted a clear cut answer, there is none. I would be lying if I said - buy this it will transform your cycling. ultimatley buy what you will enjoy riding that is the whole point after all.

dstev55

I wasn't getting the wrong end of the stick but I'm posting on this thread as I'm after advice on wheels not my diet.

cycleclinic

I did not give advise about diet your diet maybe very good and you may be well trained.

spasypaddy

mate is after some new wheels, hes heavy (110kg ish) and would like something deep rim (ish), but he needs an alu braking surface.

any suggestions for rims?

ugo.santalucia

spasypaddy wrote:

mate is after some new wheels, hes heavy (110kg ish) and would like something deep rim (ish), but he needs an alu braking surface.

any suggestions for rims?

If he wants carbon + alloy brake track, the factory builds offer more... maybe a pair of HED Jet in stallion build? I think he's too heavy for the Cosmic.

Otherwise there are semi-deep rims... 30 mm like Kinlin or FLO or Velocity Chukker, but they are not carbon and visually don't look very deep at all

https://whosatthewheel.com/2016/08/21/t ... vs-kinlin/

If he wants handbuilt + carbo/alu, then a Chinese imported rim from Farsports might be the solution

spasypaddy

i recommended kinlin last night, and was going to also suggest FLO30 so im glad im on the right track. thanks

mrb123

What about those deep aluminium H Plus Son rims, the SL42s. They're pretty weighty but don't suppose he'd be too bothered about that.
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/h-plus-son-sl42-road-rim/

ugo.santalucia

MrB123 wrote:

What about those deep aluminium H Plus Son rims, the SL42s. They're pretty weighty but don't suppose he'd be too bothered about that.
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/h-plus-son-sl42-road-rim/

I did build a few, mainly for people on fixed gear bikes. They are heavy, but not horrendously heavy... the main issue is that they are quite narrow, so the aerodynamic benefit is quite small... basically they look deep but won't do much for you.

The best deep rim with an alloy track is HED Jet, you can only get them as wheels, which are quite pricey, for what they are

cycleclinic

However the sl42 will take your mate with a lower spoke count without issue and they are alot cheaper than a carbon wheel with alu brake track. Why does your mate want an alloy brake track. Is it because he wants to decend down a mountain without worrying about heat build up. If thats the case fair enough. If it is from a fear of wet braking then some carbon rims are pretty good now and it is also pad dependent.

rob13

I was looking for a set of disc wheels to replace my 2100g wheelset on my Croix de fer. If it genuinely makes no difference on the road, i'm not sure if its worth trying to drop 600g on these. I might just spend the money on a carbon fork instead.

ugo.santalucia

Rob13 wrote:

I was looking for a set of disc wheels to replace my 2100g wheelset on my Croix de fer. If it genuinely makes no difference on the road, i'm not sure if its worth trying to drop 600g on these. I might just spend the money on a carbon fork instead.

It does make a difference, if the starting point is exceedingly heavy like in your case. You can maintain the same reliability and shed a pound... lighter spokes, lighter rims and marginally lighter hubs.

Hope on a light rim of choice laced with 32 Sapim D-Light will be in the 1700 grams ball park

mrb123

Rob13 wrote:

I was looking for a set of disc wheels to replace my 2100g wheelset on my Croix de fer. If it genuinely makes no difference on the road, i'm not sure if its worth trying to drop 600g on these. I might just spend the money on a carbon fork instead.

Lighter wheels won't make you go much faster, but the bike will almost certainly feel nicer to ride.

With a versatile bike like the CDF, it would be nice to have 2 sets of wheels anyway. Get some lighter handbuilts and have them set up with some nice 28 or 30mm slick tyres for road only rides, then keep the stock wheels set up with some beefier 35mm tyres with a bit of tread for when you intend to venture off road.

drwae

Probably a long shot but has anyone managed to get away with racing on BORG31 or another similar wheel, I've just entered a triathlon and it would seem they're only 7mm deeper than the limit & I'd rather not race on my £50 wiggle own brand wheelset

ugo.santalucia

MrB123 wrote:

Rob13 wrote:

I was looking for a set of disc wheels to replace my 2100g wheelset on my Croix de fer. If it genuinely makes no difference on the road, i'm not sure if its worth trying to drop 600g on these. I might just spend the money on a carbon fork instead.

Lighter wheels won't make you go much faster, but the bike will almost certainly feel nicer to ride.
.

They won't make him faster in a TT scenario, where there is very little in the way of accelerating or climbing, but they will make him faster on an average "solo" ride. While a heavy wheel has more inertia, it helps when you don't need help, because typically those are the periods when you don't use much power, whereas it hampers when you need extra watts to accelerate. On balance it hampers more than it helps.

It's a bit like wind... in theory in a circular loop you will get pushed as much as you will get slowed down, but in practice you will always be faster with no wind

Marvinman

Hi,

Does anyone have any experience of Wheelsmiths Aero Dimpled or Aero carbon rims?

Am particularly interested in any views on braking performance? I'm mulling over these or some campagnolo bora 50's and am wondering if the wheelsmiths braking performance is any good in comparison to the boras?

Cheers.

Marcw76

Hi. Hoping somebody can offer some advice as I know next to nothing about handbuilt wheels.

I'm considering some new wheels and suspect hand-built may be the way to go. Looking at spending £350ish if possible.

I have a TCX Slr 2 which is used for commutes which are mixed road and towpath, and club rides. The stock wheels will be kept for poor weather and new wheels for club runs and fair weather commutes. I thinking of running them 28c tubeless.

I'm 85kg (and falling) and will also have a max 10kg in a pannier. Thanks for reading.

ugo.santalucia

Marcw76 wrote:

Hi. Hoping somebody can offer some advice as I know next to nothing about handbuilt wheels.

I'm considering some new wheels and suspect hand-built may be the way to go. Looking at spending £350ish if possible.

I have a TCX Slr 2 which is used for commutes which are mixed road and towpath, and club rides. The stock wheels will be kept for poor weather and new wheels for club runs and fair weather commutes. I thinking of running them 28c tubeless.

I'm 85kg (and falling) and will also have a max 10kg in a pannier. Thanks for reading.

10 kg in a pannier?????? Bloody hell, what a commute!

Hope hubs 32 rear 24 or 28 front. DT 460 rims, Sapim race spokes for your rear, Sapim laser for your front. Sorted

Marcw76

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Marcw76 wrote:

Hi. Hoping somebody can offer some advice as I know next to nothing about handbuilt wheels.

I'm considering some new wheels and suspect hand-built may be the way to go. Looking at spending £350ish if possible.

I have a TCX Slr 2 which is used for commutes which are mixed road and towpath, and club rides. The stock wheels will be kept for poor weather and new wheels for club runs and fair weather commutes. I thinking of running them 28c tubeless.

I'm 85kg (and falling) and will also have a max 10kg in a pannier. Thanks for reading.

10 kg in a pannier?????? Bloody hell, what a commute!

Hope hubs 32 rear 24 or 28 front. DT 460 rims, Sapim race spokes for your rear, Sapim laser for your front. Sorted

You're right, I just plucked a number out of the air without thinking. More like 3 or 4kg. Thanks for the advice.

teebs_123

Marvinman wrote:

Hi,

Does anyone have any experience of Wheelsmiths Aero Dimpled or Aero carbon rims?

Am particularly interested in any views on braking performance? I'm mulling over these or some campagnolo bora 50's and am wondering if the wheelsmiths braking performance is any good in comparison to the boras?

Cheers.

Hi

I have the Aero 38mm combined with Dura-Ace 9100 calipers and the stopping power is very very good. Admittedly, I've not tried the Campag wheels, but I can't imagine they could be much better.

How much is the rim v how much is the caliper, I don't know, but I'm more than happy with their performance.

Marvinman

Thanks - tbh ive pretty much made my mind up on the Boras - its a heart over head over wallet thing ! I'm sure they will put a smile on my face and that'll do for me.

teebs_123

Marvinman wrote:

Thanks - tbh ive pretty much made my mind up on the Boras - its a heart over head over wallet thing ! I'm sure they will put a smile on my face and that'll do for me.

I'm sure they will! Mine were £1180 built with CK hubs

matt_n-2

Marvinman wrote:

Thanks - tbh ive pretty much made my mind up on the Boras - its a heart over head over wallet thing ! I'm sure they will put a smile on my face and that'll do for me.

Boras with the supplied red Campag carbon brake pads are very good on the braking front, a combination of the brake track and the pad works really well.

I don't have them (I've got 303 tubs with black price pads) but my FiL has a C59 with Boras and they really are a lovely wheelset, you wont be disappointed.

I believe the Cycle Clinic supply or at least recommend Campag red pads with his wheels owing to how good they are.

ugo.santalucia

Matt_N wrote:

but my FiL has a C59 with Boras...

Must be the Lord of Mamils in his neck of the woods...

matt_n-2

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Matt_N wrote:

but my FiL has a C59 with Boras...

Must be the Lord of Mamils in his neck of the woods...

Not really.

He's a 67 year old with rheumatoid arthritis doing 200 miles a week, he loves the bike and the wheels, I think he can justify it.

roubaixmb

I assume these are a mass produced in the far east rim, but does anyone know which ones?

http://ridefullgas.com/dm8-elite-series ... 650g-pair/