Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Bordersroadie

thecycleclinic wrote:

The open sport is one of the worst rims I have ever used. Did one set for a customer within one year they were not exactly round and he is not heavy either. Also quite flexy. The Exel LX17 is a pinned joined rim.

The Mavic A319 or the A119 is another option. The A319 is not made anymore but rose bikes ahave a few in 32H drilling.

You infer that pin-joined is inferior, but you recommend a pin-joined rim, the A119?

Re the non-round "flexy" Open Sport, it's amazing how these samples of one become "internet fact" - strange how my well built pair have remained perfectly round and true after a winter of abuse on poor roads and no sign of "flex" even climbing out of the saddle in a steel frame....

I'm not trying to over-defend my own choice, just presenting an alternative anecdote.

ugo.santalucia

Interesting, as we come from the same background... no idea why he got so intrigued by the dynamics of a bicycle wheel. I took pleasure in building them as a craft, as a diversion from a very demotivating work environment I was in at the time, but never thought much of it... it never occurred to me it was rocket science of some sort

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/arti ... uld-49162/

cycleclinic

Built more than one open sport up you know i just gave one example. The problem with flexible rims is they work (i.ereliable) for many riders but not all. It is difficult to predict as well. There is a reasonable chance of spoke failure before the rims wears out although this rider dependant. I dont like that. The a119 is alot stiffer therefore suits a wider range of riders without issue. Given it is a similar price this is s better bet. The excel rim will be similar.

There are other rims like the open sport out there. Done many and many riders had no issue some did. With stiffer rims the same issues did not happen. There is a pattern there and stiffer wheels mean longer spoke life. I am just passing on that experience.

I mearly pointed out the rim was pin joined. Made no inference about anything. Cheap rims are pinned joined.

I forgot to mention the kinlin xc 279, brake track wont be as think as on the touring rims but is more expenive tha a119 and that excel rim.

bobones

Thanks for the ideas guys. I can't get the Ambrosio Evolutions at a decent price now, otherwise I would just stick to them. I don't want to move to rims that are even heavier than the Evos (480g) which rules out the A119s and Exal 17s, and ideally I'd rather go for less expensive rims than the Archetypes.

I am currently using 105 hubs which are OK, but require regular maintenance so I might try Miche Primatos on my next build, which opens up the opportunity of going for a lower spoke count as I am less than 70kgs. Would DT Swiss R460s on 24H front , 28H rear make sense? The R460 seem to be both wide and tubeless compatible (although I am far from convinced whether the benefits of tubeless outweigh the perceived hassle and extra cost)?

Alex99

bobones wrote:

Thanks for the ideas guys. I can't get the Ambrosio Evolutions at a decent price now, otherwise I would just stick to them. I don't want to move to rims that are even heavier than the Evos (480g) which rules out the A119s and Exal 17s, and ideally I'd rather go for less expensive rims than the Archetypes.

I am currently using 105 hubs which are OK, but require regular maintenance so I might try Miche Primatos on my next build, which opens up the opportunity of going for a lower spoke count as I am less than 70kgs. Would DT Swiss R460s on 24H front , 28H rear make sense? The R460 seem to be both wide and tubeless compatible (although I am far from convinced whether the benefits of tubeless outweigh the perceived hassle and extra cost)?

The Exal LX17 is crossing over into a light touring rim. But, I don't see the issue for a winter wheel. You started at the top of this page asking for a 32 spoke rim, so why pinching the grams on spokes?

cycleclinic

The R460 rim is just fine. Wait a another week and more kinlin XR22T's will be in the country which I prefer overall. Both are the same price. the Kinlin XC279 is another wide deepish rim.

You cant have a long brake track life and a light rim. The R460 or the XR22T/RT are about as expensive as an all weather rim should be. Factor in tubeless rim tape for the kinlin rim though otherwise tubed tyres can be a pain to mount. You can also use the Kinlin XC279 which is alot stiffer than the R460 and still under 500g. The XC279 is not tubeless compatible so tyre fitting with normal rim tape is straightforward.

bobones

Alex99 wrote:

The Exal LX17 is crossing over into a light touring rim. But, I don't see the issue for a winter wheel. You started at the top of this page asking for a 32 spoke rim, so why pinching the grams on spokes?

I think 32/32 is overbuilt for my weight, but it's either that or 32/36 with standard Shimano hubs.

My 5700 hubs have not been impressive - failed freehub left me catching a bus with my bike, and the rear hub is a a bit rough even with new balls and grease. My 5800 hubs seem to be better and are still running smoothly after a quick clean and regrease, but I've been reading the strong recommendations for Miche Primatos from Cycleclinic, and they come in different drillings (they don't even list 32/32) so going to a lower spoke count like 24/28 is an option, but I'm open to advice on it.

I am torn between using a really cheap build like A119 on Tiagra hubs which will cost me around £85 in parts, or going for some nicer rims using Miche hubs or even Ultegra. Bear in mind that I cycle around 5/6 days a week (8.5k miles last year - none of it commuting) and my winter bike gets used in wet weather all year round so maybe I'll appreciate something a bit better than absolutely basic?

Alex99

bobones wrote:

Alex99 wrote:

The Exal LX17 is crossing over into a light touring rim. But, I don't see the issue for a winter wheel. You started at the top of this page asking for a 32 spoke rim, so why pinching the grams on spokes?

I think 32/32 is overbuilt for my weight, but it's either that or 32/36 with standard Shimano hubs.

My 5700 hubs have not been impressive - failed freehub left me catching a bus with my bike, and the rear hub is a a bit rough even with new balls and grease. My 5800 hubs seem to be better and are still running smoothly after a quick clean and regrease, but I've been reading the strong recommendations for Miche Primatos from Cycleclinic, and they come in different drillings (they don't even list 32/32) so going to a lower spoke count like 24/28 is an option, but I'm open to advice on it.

I am torn between using a really cheap build like A119 on Tiagra hubs which will cost me around £85 in parts, or going for some nicer rims using Miche hubs or even Ultegra. Bear in mind that I cycle around 5/6 days a week (8.5k miles last year - none of it commuting) and my winter bike gets used in wet weather all year round so maybe I'll appreciate something a bit better than absolutely basic?

I'm a bit surprised about your 5700 hubs. Maybe got a dud for some reason?!?

I suppose you're looking to get a reasonable match of rim and spoke life, so it will depend on terrain/amount of braking in your riding. Some folk on here suggest that you really want the spokes to last longer than the rim, which makes a lot of sense. So, a wheel intended for primarily winter use will see more miles on dirty wet roads = more rim wear = a match for fewer spokes.

bobones

Alex99 wrote:

I'm a bit surprised about your 5700 hubs. Maybe got a dud for some reason?!?

I suppose you're looking to get a reasonable match of rim and spoke life, so it will depend on terrain/amount of braking in your riding. Some folk on here suggest that you really want the spokes to last longer than the rim, which makes a lot of sense. So, a wheel intended for primarily winter use will see more miles on dirty wet roads = more rim wear = a match for fewer spokes.

The 5700 freehub just stopped engaging and started spinning both ways without warning, which is not confidence inspiring, but easy to fix with a new freehub! I've never had a single problem with the spokes on this wheel: they're on their second set of rims, but the rear hub is slightly rough sounding compared to other wheels I have. I definitely wear out rims relatively quickly, which is one of the reasons I started building my own winter wheels, but rarely have problems with spokes or wheels going out of true.

dstev55

I'm seriously considering some 35mm carbon wheels from DCR wheels (premium range). I am still not sure whether I should go 44mm although from the info on his website I think the 35mm will suit me better (70kg at heaviest, live on the edge of the Peak District so lots of hilly riding).

Also you're looking at an extra £300 or so to go from his own branded hubs to Tune hubs. The slight weight saving aside, is it a worthy upgrade?

mrb123

dstev55 wrote:

I'm seriously considering some 35mm carbon wheels from DCR wheels (premium range). I am still not sure whether I should go 44mm although from the info on his website I think the 35mm will suit me better (70kg at heaviest, live on the edge of the Peak District so lots of hilly riding).

Also you're looking at an extra £300 or so to go from his own branded hubs to Tune hubs. The slight weight saving aside, is it a worthy upgrade?

I can't comment on the carbon rims or Tune hubs but I do have a set of DCR handbuilts with David's own hubs and thus far they have been excellent.

ugo.santalucia

Had nothing but troubles with Tune hubs... hidden creaking, hidden squeaking, mysterious noises of all sorts. The best characteristic for a pair of hubs (beside staying in one piece) is easy to service... Novatec, Miche and Hope lead the pack in that respect

dstev55

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Had nothing but troubles with Tune hubs... hidden creaking, hidden squeaking, mysterious noises of all sorts. The best characteristic for a pair of hubs (beside staying in one piece) is easy to service... Novatec, Miche and Hope lead the pack in that respect

Must be the only 3 that DCR doesn't use!

ugo.santalucia

dstev55 wrote:

Must be the only 3 that DCR doesn't use!

Sure about that?

I remember rebuilding a front Novatec 291 hub that he had built and was problematic... spot the mistake in the photo





I also remember rebuilding a Archetype on Hope disc rear that he built

So, if you ask, he might be able to supply them. That said, his hubs are most likely easy-to-service taiwanese jobs... Bitex maybe?

chrisǃ

Hello,

I'm in need of some new training/winter wheels. Currently looking at the DA 9000/Mavic open pro 32 spoke wheels on Merlin. Can anyone recommend anything better for the same/less? I seem to go through front rims like crazy so handbuilts seem like a good option as I can just get the rim replaced as no doubt DA hubs should last a fair while!

Thanks

ugo.santalucia

Chris! wrote:

Hello,

I'm in need of some new training/winter wheels. Currently looking at the DA 9000/Mavic open pro 32 spoke wheels on Merlin. Can anyone recommend anything better for the same/less? I seem to go through front rims like crazy so handbuilts seem like a good option as I can just get the rim replaced as no doubt DA hubs should last a fair while!

Thanks

You can spend a lot less if you go for 6800 hubs instead of DA 9000... they are pretty much as good as. Open PRO is a dated rim, which is not to say it is a bad rim... it is, well, a classic!

chrisǃ

I thought that might be the case Ugo, I just can't help when it comes to Dura Ace!

ugo.santalucia

Chris! wrote:

I thought that might be the case Ugo, I just can't help when it comes to Dura Ace!

Dura Ace makes sense if you want 24 or 28 holes, but for 32 holes it is a no brainer. Ultegra is basically the same thing with a steel rather than a titanium freehub. The marginal weight saved is not worth the massive retail price difference. Dura Ace products have a longer 3 year warranty, but I am not sure this is the case when you buy a built up wheel... besides, they hardly ever go wrong and wear is not covered by warranty

mrb123

Chris! wrote:

Hello,

I'm in need of some new training/winter wheels. Currently looking at the DA 9000/Mavic open pro 32 spoke wheels on Merlin. Can anyone recommend anything better for the same/less? I seem to go through front rims like crazy so handbuilts seem like a good option as I can just get the rim replaced as no doubt DA hubs should last a fair while!

Thanks

These...
http://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections ... -9000-hubs

these...
http://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections ... lset-black

or maybe...
http://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections ... 1-wheelset

chrisǃ

MrB123 wrote:

Chris! wrote:

Hello,

I'm in need of some new training/winter wheels. Currently looking at the DA 9000/Mavic open pro 32 spoke wheels on Merlin. Can anyone recommend anything better for the same/less? I seem to go through front rims like crazy so handbuilts seem like a good option as I can just get the rim replaced as no doubt DA hubs should last a fair while!

Thanks

These...
http://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections ... -9000-hubs

these...
http://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections ... lset-black

or maybe...
http://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections ... 1-wheelset

Thanks for the extra options. I'm currently riding archetype rims on hope pro 3 hubs so I suppose I could just get a new rim for the front. I just thought that a 32 spoke old school wheel might be better. I'm no heavy weight at 63kg, I just put a lot of miles in and ride on pretty crap Yorkshire roads in all weather!

dstev55

ugo.santalucia wrote:

dstev55 wrote:

Must be the only 3 that DCR doesn't use!

Sure about that?

I remember rebuilding a front Novatec 291 hub that he had built and was problematic... spot the mistake in the photo






I also remember rebuilding a Archetype on Hope disc rear that he built

So, if you ask, he might be able to supply them. That said, his hubs are most likely easy-to-service taiwanese jobs... Bitex maybe?

Not a clue as I don't know the first thing about wheel building.

To be fair I was just going on the options given for his Premium carbon range which are DCR Hubs, DCR Lightweight Hubs, DT Swiss, Tune and Chris King.

You don't seem the biggest fan of his builds???

mrb123

Chris! wrote:

MrB123 wrote:

Chris! wrote:

Hello,

I'm in need of some new training/winter wheels. Currently looking at the DA 9000/Mavic open pro 32 spoke wheels on Merlin. Can anyone recommend anything better for the same/less? I seem to go through front rims like crazy so handbuilts seem like a good option as I can just get the rim replaced as no doubt DA hubs should last a fair while!

Thanks

These...
http://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections ... -9000-hubs

these...
http://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections ... lset-black

or maybe...
http://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections ... 1-wheelset

Thanks for the extra options. I'm currently riding archetype rims on hope pro 3 hubs so I suppose I could just get a new rim for the front. I just thought that a 32 spoke old school wheel might be better. I'm no heavy weight at 63kg, I just put a lot of miles in and ride on pretty crap Yorkshire roads in all weather!

If your problem is wearing out rims I'm not sure what good extra spokes would do although they won't do any harm of course! Someone on here can probably venture an opinion on what are the most durable rims for all weather riding.

You could drop DCR wheels a line to see if he has any of the Ryde CSS coated rims which are reputed to be very durable.

Failing that, how about a new bike with disc brakes?!

chrisǃ

MrB123 wrote:

Chris! wrote:

MrB123 wrote:

Chris! wrote:

Hello,

I'm in need of some new training/winter wheels. Currently looking at the DA 9000/Mavic open pro 32 spoke wheels on Merlin. Can anyone recommend anything better for the same/less? I seem to go through front rims like crazy so handbuilts seem like a good option as I can just get the rim replaced as no doubt DA hubs should last a fair while!

Thanks

These...
http://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections ... -9000-hubs

these...
http://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections ... lset-black

or maybe...
http://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections ... 1-wheelset

Thanks for the extra options. I'm currently riding archetype rims on hope pro 3 hubs so I suppose I could just get a new rim for the front. I just thought that a 32 spoke old school wheel might be better. I'm no heavy weight at 63kg, I just put a lot of miles in and ride on pretty crap Yorkshire roads in all weather!

If your problem is wearing out rims I'm not sure what good extra spokes would do although they won't do any harm of course! Someone on here can probably venture an opinion on what are the most durable rims for all weather riding.

You could drop DCR wheels a line to see if he has any of the Ryde CSS coated rims which are reputed to be very durable.

Failing that, how about a new bike with disc brakes?!

Re the rims I just meant that I didn't want to get flashy/light/thin ones to have to replace them quickly. Thanks for the heads up on the Ryde rims. A disc bike would be nice, but apparently I already have too many bikes!

pblakeney

Chris! wrote:

Re the rims I just meant that I didn't want to get flashy/light/thin ones to have to replace them quickly. Thanks for the heads up on the Ryde rims. A disc bike would be nice, but apparently I already have too many bikes!

I was recommended Ambrossio Excursion. I must say that they have lasted a LOT longer the the previous Mavic Open Pros and they still have a lot of life in them. Other manufacturers are available.

ugo.santalucia

dstev55 wrote:

You don't seem the biggest fan of his builds???

Just a "difference of views" about that particular build...

As a more general rule, I am never a fan of those who specifically recommend boutique components, but I understand one has to make ends meet

dstev55

ugo.santalucia wrote:

dstev55 wrote:

You don't seem the biggest fan of his builds???

Just a "difference of views" about that particular build...

As a more general rule, I am never a fan of those who specifically recommend boutique components, but I understand one has to make ends meet

So go on then, what would you recommend? Looking for mid depth carbon clinchers, no more than 1400g (as that is the weight of my current shallow depth alloy clinchers so wouldn't want to add weight to my bike), live in generally hilly terrain so wheels that edge towards better climbing than fast flat riding preferred.

ugo.santalucia

dstev55 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

dstev55 wrote:

You don't seem the biggest fan of his builds???

Just a "difference of views" about that particular build...

As a more general rule, I am never a fan of those who specifically recommend boutique components, but I understand one has to make ends meet

So go on then, what would you recommend? Looking for mid depth carbon clinchers, no more than 1400g (as that is the weight of my current shallow depth alloy clinchers so wouldn't want to add weight to my bike), live in generally hilly terrain so wheels that edge towards better climbing than fast flat riding preferred.

I have a fetish for good quality hubs and I am therefore not in a position to meet your stringent weight limits. When I used to build wheels, I have never had anyone complaining about a few extra grams, but I had a few complaints about light hubs that were problematic (always a customer decision to go light)... with frail bearings, various squeaks, butter freehubs and so on.
I like Hope, mainly because their catalogue of spares include every single part, present or past, rather than none or some. They weigh 100 grams more than a pair of light hubs for the pair... it's a bonus. 100 grams will never get you up a climb quicker... you do your maths, as they say

They also come in nice and tasteful colours, which doesn't hurt

cycleclinic

DCR does use bitex hubs. JRA hubs are also bitex. Very few boutique hubs are really worth the money they command simply because of the potential relaibility issues. There are a few exceptions though but Tune is not one of them.

Rim wear is a problem. Rims like the ambrosio excursion may last a bit longer but they are heavish narrow shallow rims. Essentially a mavic open pro with a thicker brake track. While that is good in one way such rims work best with a higher spoke to ensure a wheel that lasts. Seen 28H mavic open pro and ambrosio excelight builds and every one is out of shape with a light rider on it too.

Wider rims would be heavier if weight it not saved somewhere one place is the thickness of the brake track. There are ways to slow down wear but it involves fastidious cleaning and using soft brake pads. The softest pads are Miche followed by Kool stop dura 2 salmon pad and Aztec seem to be O.K.

However on balance I would rather have a wider rim than a narrow rim with a thicker brake track. I have had the latter and I would not use them again personally. Even in filthy suffolk and for a rider that rarely cleans his bikes rim wear is not a huge issue for me.

DStev55 if you have a wheelset that is 1400g and one that is 1600g you will ride at the same speed if the wheels have the same rims. Setting weight goals does limit your choices. Mid depth carbon rims are no better at going up hills than shallower ones. Typically a 50mm carbon clincher is around 500g. A 38mm deep one is less aero obviously (I am assuming a similar profile) but only 50 or 60g lighter. So those 120g make eff all difference to how quickly you go up a hill. the aero difference will have a real effect though. It may not be large but if you were riding a hilly TT course with a 38mm and 50mm deep wide rimmed wheelset at the same power there would be a few seconds difference and it would be the deeper wheels that would be the winner. This is the problem I have with mid depth carbon rims, they are pointless. not light enough to make a difference but in principle slower due to the extra aero drag which kind of defeats the point of aero wheels in the first place. It is not like with the profiles around these days that deeper rims have issues in strong winds any more. The extra nail in the coffin of 38mm ish deep rims is there are good 30mm deep alloy rims which cost less and offer similar gains. So you have to ask what is the logic you are trying to pursue here and that is aside from ugo good points about hubs.

So 1400g carbon clinchers are possible even with deeper rims (I have a done a few) but you have to keep the weight down with expensive hubs. Does that make for a better wheelset. well it will be more expensive and it will look good if that is your criteria then yes it is better.

the only mid depth rims that make any sense to me are tubular rims because they are at least very light. Wheelset weight though seems to make naff all difference in how fast you go. How aero the wheel is does, maybe wheel stiffness but I think that is more do with how influence the feel of the bike than any nonsense about power transfer. That my take on this anyway.

DA 9000 hubs where kind of worth it before brexit. Now they are the price of White Industires hubs but have a bearing you must service preventatively and you know in a few years axles, freehubs and cones will be hard to find. Not all the parts for the 7800 series are available any more from madision so that long lived hub is actually limited by spares availability. With a WI T11 hubs the bearings are 6902 I think - they going are not out of production soon and the freehub bearings are replaceable the axle is steel so wont break. So DA9000 hubs are good hubs if you service them and do alot of miles say 10,000+ miles a year on them. If you do less you wont get your monies worth.

I may offer DA hubs but I hardly build with them now simply because of the price. I would not put them in my own wheels I would just use a set of miche hubs. Put it another way A miche Primato hub is 425g and DA9000 hubs are 370g. What exactly does the extra money buy you. I am not sure.

In my own wheels I have Dura Ace 7700, 7403, Royce, Campagnolo chorus and Record, Shimano XTR M985 and M950, Shimano XT M730, Carbon ti, Novatec A291/F582 and D711 and D712 (axle has bent on the rear hubs), Mavic M601 and 3 different sets Miche hubs. Some of these hubs are very expensive many should have been expensive but I got lucky as bike stuff does cross my path often but none and I mean this do the job of a hub any better or more reliably than a reasonably priced set of miche hubs. Some are lighter yes, some are pretty some come in silly drillings. Ugo like's Hope for sound reasons as well. Spares availability is important. I suppose that is one thing in favour of campag hubs. All the main spares for record and chorus hubs with the oversized axles are still in production and these hubs in this form go back to 1999. shame the drillings are limited. royce hubs also have excellent spares back up and you can talk to man who made them. His name is Cliff.

dstev55

To say I am sitting here scratching my head confused is an understatement...

There is so much conflicting advice around wheels that in all honesty I think I'm just going to keep my current wheels until I can begin to understand it all a bit more.

cycleclinic

It is not confusing at all. if you want to go faster and you have optimised your position, clothing e.t.c then a more aero wheel will do that. That means a deeper and wider wheelset. you can go go the alloy route which will be about 30mm deep and that will offer a small advantage, a 50mm ish (45-60mm) deep carbon rims will offer a bigger advantage. Going mid depth 35-40mm is a half way house that means you are compromising your goal for no real gain. That half way house is touted as giving better handling - bollocks I have never noticed that, or better cross wind stability which is certainly true for V section rims but those are not the rims I am talking about.

Wheelset weight makes sod all difference to your pace even where it is hilly. Overall rider and bike weight is the thing that is important there (even how aero you are has an impact as you are not riding in an uphill ecsher nigthmare all the time) and the differences need to be in the kg range not the couple hundred of grams range. I dont care if your wheels as 1700g or 1400g. If you can save 1kg on your wheels that is different but lower rotational weight does not achoeveing anything more than loosing the same mass of water bottle.

The problem with alot of what is written about wheels it is written in good faith but fails to account of physics. Do maths and all will become apparant. Also you have to seperate what feels quicker from what actually is. My 1240g 38mm deep tubular wheels feel good to ride but they are not quicker than my deeper carbon clinchers, physics clearly shows the reverse although the difference is small and other factors like wind are bigger.

So yes hold of on your purchase.