Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

shortfall

Thanks for all the advice fellas.

Chaz.Harding

So, in reference to the other thread I started...

I'm looking for some wheels. I think a higher spoke count than my current 16F 20R is needed.

I'm about 95kgs, and I ride predominantly in hilly areas. My milage is between 200 and 250 kms / week, come rain or shine. So my current wheels are feeling sorry for themselves.

I want something that will be pretty future-proof, and reasonably aero (as it stands, I can hold 30kph on the flats with relative ease).

I was thinking along the lines of some centrelock DT Swiss 240 hubs, on H Plus Son SL42 rims, with a 24F 28R spoke count. I currently don't have disc brakes, but my next bike will definitely be a disc variant. Also, I like the adaptability of the hubs - QR / 15mm for the front, and QR 130 / 135 and 12 x 142 for the rear without the need for new hubs.

Smart choice or not so much?

ugo.santalucia

RTW-Chaz wrote:

So, in reference to the other thread I started...

I'm looking for some wheels. I think a higher spoke count than my current 16F 20R is needed.

I'm about 95kgs, and I ride predominantly in hilly areas. My milage is between 200 and 250 kms / week, come rain or shine. So my current wheels are feeling sorry for themselves.

I want something that will be pretty future-proof, and reasonably aero (as it stands, I can hold 30kph on the flats with relative ease).

I was thinking along the lines of some centrelock DT Swiss 240 hubs, on H Plus Son SL42 rims, with a 24F 28R spoke count. I currently don't have disc brakes, but my next bike will definitely be a disc variant. Also, I like the adaptability of the hubs - QR / 15mm for the front, and QR 130 / 135 and 12 x 142 for the rear without the need for new hubs.

Smart choice or not so much?

Disc and non disc are incompatible... if you want discs in the future then your non disc heels are not future-proof, as you want them to be

cycleclinic

rim brake bikes have 130mm spaced hubs and disc brake bikes are 135 or 142mm spaced. The hub types will not work in the others frames.

The SL42 is not even that aero.

Chaz.Harding

thecycleclinic wrote:

rim brake bikes have 130mm spaced hubs and disc brake bikes are 135 or 142mm spaced. The hub types will not work in the others frames.

The SL42 is not even that aero.

So why can I not lace a rim brake rim onto a disc hub? And with the right hub I can easily switch between axle types, but I'm unsure of dishing differences.

Realistically, unless the frame is really asymmetrical, the dishing differences will be minimal between 130 and 135 mm hub spacing. And even if end caps / axle is available to take it from 135 to 130, the difference is so small, I'd not think twice about fitting a MTB hub to a road bike again.

I could care less that I'll be running a disc hub with rim brakes, or in future, a disc brake with rim brake rims.

Bottom line is, I'm not spending a bunch of money on a wheelset that I'm not going to use on my next bike.

142 x 12 mm and 100 x 15 mm axle compatibility is important, since my next bike will probably be through axle front and rear.

apreading

Front will be fine, as long as you get hubs that you can change the axle diameter with axle kit/adapters etc.

As far as I am aware you cant get hubs where you are able to change the hub width at the rear though, just the diameter of the axle, not its length. I could be wrong as I am no expert but I think Malcolm qualifies as one so if he says you cant I would suspect he is correct. You could probably wedge a 135mm wide hub into a 130mm frame though. Would the wheel be centred and would the cassette be lined up ready to index, I dont know. Isnt road 11 speed different to mtb 11 speed? Not sure it would be viable to force a 142mm wide hub into a 130mm frame though - that would probably be too much of a stretch.

ugo.santalucia

RTW-Chaz wrote:

Bottom line is, I'm not spending a bunch of money on a wheelset that I'm not going to use on my next bike.

Bottom line, you shouldn't spend a lot of money for a botch. if you want new wheels and a disc brake bike, then get the latter and then the former, not viceversa

As for your idea of jamming a 135 mm hub in a 130 mm rear triangle... good luck with that

Chaz.Harding

ugo.santalucia wrote:

RTW-Chaz wrote:

Bottom line is, I'm not spending a bunch of money on a wheelset that I'm not going to use on my next bike.

Bottom line, you shouldn't spend a lot of money for a botch. if you want new wheels and a disc brake bike, then get the latter and then the former, not viceversa

As for your idea of jamming a 135 mm hub in a 130 mm rear triangle... good luck with that

Yeah... I'm getting to the point where it's becoming uneconomical to keep refreshing expensive parts on my bike. Might be new bike time 8)

With a frame flex of 2.5 mm per side, I can definitely fit a MTB hub into a road frame. Easily. What I don't know about is cassette alignment and wheel dish. Which is why I asked. I couldn't imagine the dish being too severe, as to not fit a road bike, but again, I'm ignorant to the specifics.

Alex99

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

I've done 5000 miles on them, at times when I was over 18stone. They have been utterly dependable, stayed true and the bearings are smooth and robust. They're gonna be a hard act to follow which is why I'm seeking advice before pulling the trigger on another set of handbuilts.

Bar the life of the rim, which depends on way too many factors, the life of the spokes is down to mileage, weight and power. 5000 miles for a set of low spoke count and your weight is pretty decent, but you should be able to get close to unlimited lifetime with the right type/number of spokes.

What you need is down to how many miles you do per year... if I had to change wheels every 5000 miles, that would be every 7 months or so... it wouldn't be a very appealing proposition... hence why disc brakes and hence why handbuilts

As above, I wouldn't scrimp on a few grams... get them well built, get them solid

This might be opening a can of worms, but do you have a lifetime service figure in mind with your wheels, or do you ride until one (or two?) spokes break from fatigue? Waiting for a spoke fatigue failure on a low spoke wheel seems like a less that ideal idea.

I race on Zonda's and train on very traditional 32/32 spoke wheels. It's posssible that I'll crash on the Zonda's or want something fancier before I reach e.g. 5k miles. The training wheels, I expect that I'll replace the rims a few times and eventually dump them when hover bikes are available.

ugo.santalucia

Alex99 wrote:

This might be opening a can of worms, but do you have a lifetime service figure in mind with your wheels, or do you ride until one (or two?) spokes break from fatigue? Waiting for a spoke fatigue failure on a low spoke wheel seems like a less that ideal idea.

I race on Zonda's and train on very traditional 32/32 spoke wheels. It's posssible that I'll crash on the Zonda's or want something fancier before I reach e.g. 5k miles. The training wheels, I expect that I'll replace the rims a few times and eventually dump them when hover bikes are available.

I build ALL my wheels at 32 holes, if I want light I use light spokes. f I build with fancy spokes (say Sapim Laser or d-light) then I replace my spokes every two years, which roughly means 10,000 miles for a single bike (I have two which I use about the same amount) that is to prevent any problem down the line.

If I build with non fancy spokes (say sapim race or DT comp), then I assume spokes will not break... so far they haven't

Alex99

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Alex99 wrote:

This might be opening a can of worms, but do you have a lifetime service figure in mind with your wheels, or do you ride until one (or two?) spokes break from fatigue? Waiting for a spoke fatigue failure on a low spoke wheel seems like a less that ideal idea.

I race on Zonda's and train on very traditional 32/32 spoke wheels. It's posssible that I'll crash on the Zonda's or want something fancier before I reach e.g. 5k miles. The training wheels, I expect that I'll replace the rims a few times and eventually dump them when hover bikes are available.

I build ALL my wheels at 32 holes, if I want light I use light spokes. f I build with fancy spokes (say Sapim Laser or d-light) then I replace my spokes every two years, which roughly means 10,000 miles for a single bike (I have two which I use about the same amount) that is to prevent any problem down the line.

If I build with non fancy spokes (say sapim race or DT comp), then I assume spokes will not break... so far they haven't

Makes sense. My 32/32s are non fancy spokes, so I'm just going on rim condition. There is about 5k miles on them and I'll change the rims in the spring because the wear groove is nearly gone.

timothyw

Flo sell aerodynamic bike wheels, they have some fairly compelling data showing that you shouldn't bother with buying aero wheels - these are the time savings experienced across a 40km TT and 180km TT/ironman from using one of their front wheels against a 32 round spoke OpenPro wheel (about the least aero wheel you can imagine) at the frankly superhuman baseline speed of 30mph.

Wheel 40k Ironman
2013 FLO 30 38s 2m 51s
2016 FLO 60 Aluminum + Carbon 55s 4m 9s
2016 FLO 90 Aluminum + Carbon 1m 0s 4m 29s
2016 FLO DISC Aluminum + Carbon 1m 14s 5m 31s
2016 FLO 45 Carbon Clincher 55s 4m 6s
2016 FLO 60 Carbon Clincher 1m 3s 4m 41s
2016 FLO 90 Carbon Clincher 1m 4s 4m 48s
2016 FLO DISC Carbon Clincher 1m 11s 5m 19s

All of the above wheels (well, except the disks) are using a mere 20 CX-Ray aerodynamic spokes. They ought build up an open pro with 20 cx-rays and see how they compare to that - except I think we could already infer - not well.

Bit underwhelming isn't it?

I dunno, if you actually do intend to ride TT events or Ironman events where you can't draft, maybe those meagre savings are worth the money, if on the other hand you want to ride crits/road races and so spend much of the event drafting, or for that matter just ride sportives and club runs I think perhaps you'll agree big money spent on Aero wheels is completely pointless.

Source is here - http://www.flocycling.com/wheels_front_flo_30.php

Alex99

TimothyW wrote:

Flo sell aerodynamic bike wheels, they have some fairly compelling data showing that you shouldn't bother with buying aero wheels - these are the time savings experienced across a 40km TT and 180km TT/ironman from using one of their front wheels against a 32 round spoke OpenPro wheel (about the least aero wheel you can imagine) at the frankly superhuman baseline speed of 30mph.

Wheel 40k Ironman
2013 FLO 30 38s 2m 51s
2016 FLO 60 Aluminum + Carbon 55s 4m 9s
2016 FLO 90 Aluminum + Carbon 1m 0s 4m 29s
2016 FLO DISC Aluminum + Carbon 1m 14s 5m 31s
2016 FLO 45 Carbon Clincher 55s 4m 6s
2016 FLO 60 Carbon Clincher 1m 3s 4m 41s
2016 FLO 90 Carbon Clincher 1m 4s 4m 48s
2016 FLO DISC Carbon Clincher 1m 11s 5m 19s

All of the above wheels (well, except the disks) are using a mere 20 CX-Ray aerodynamic spokes. They ought build up an open pro with 20 cx-rays and see how they compare to that - except I think we could already infer - not well.

Bit underwhelming isn't it?

I dunno, if you actually do intend to ride TT events or Ironman events where you can't draft, maybe those meagre savings are worth the money, if on the other hand you want to ride crits/road races and so spend much of the event drafting, or for that matter just ride sportives and club runs I think perhaps you'll agree big money spent on Aero wheels is completely pointless.

Source is here - http://www.flocycling.com/wheels_front_flo_30.php

Honestly, saving a minute over 25 miles is quite a lot if you're already training as hard as you can and have the main goal of going fast. Think of it in terms of how much quality training you'd need to string together to get a full minute faster. On the other hand, as you point out, a better comparison would be to a standard low spoke count wheel e.g. Zonda. I guess a Zonda would be half way towards the 'proper' aero wheel.

roubaixmb

Maybe FLO wheels are just shite

ugo.santalucia

Appropriately

https://whosatthewheel.com/2016/11/06/c ... and-power/

rob13

Looking at building up a croix de fer for 80% road work, 20% off road. Was looking at Kinesis Crosslight CXDisc v4s which come in at £250 at the moment, moonglu seem to be selling off some DT Swiss R460 32spoke on Shimano R505 hubs at £225. Is it better to go for those? They're a bit heavier but might be a bit more durable? 78kg rider

timothyw

I'd go for the moonglu wheels. The kinesis have aluminium nipples which makes them a pain to true or service down the line, and for off road you'll want the extra 4 spokes.

rob13

TimothyW wrote:

I'd go for the moonglu wheels. The kinesis have aluminium nipples which makes them a pain to true or service down the line, and for off road you'll want the extra 4 spokes.

My budget was £280 max so if that's the best option then I'll probably get those and save some cash.

cycleclinic

Why would you want 4 extra spoke for off road riding it wont hurt but is not always needed? My 29er wheels are 28F/28R with sapim lasers they wrok fine they are riden mostly off road. Why because the wheels are very stiff. Spoke count and spoke guage is just one factor in spoke life. what actually determines the rate of spoke fatigue is the length change each spoke during each revolution of the wheel. that length change is directly proportional to the tension change as a % of over tension. So the bigger the tension changes the faster the spoke fatigue. This is governed by wheel stiffness (radial, lateral and torsional). For the DT Swiss rims which is quite stiff a 28 spoke count is fine if triple butted spokes are used as the bigger elbow just takes longer to fatigue. However for the Shimano RS505 hubs as the only option is 32 spoke then that is what you have to have. Still mooglu could use triple butted spokes. they add little extra weight and extend spoke life a fair bit. I don't know how these hubs stand up to high miles. they are cheap and look like tiagra level hubs which are O.K but may not do as many miles as the rim and spokes are capable of. Although this will depend on how often you service them.

alloy nipples are only a pain if you have to true them. Truing however should not need to be done.
put it this way for a 84kg rider (me I have put on weight) and a 15kg bike I think 24 spoke disc brake wheels are fine with thin flexy CX-rays. The wheels are stiff though hense they work well. There is 11000km on them so far and no hint of any issue from the alloy nipples (they see a lot of salt and never get washed) and I am still waiting for a spoke to go, I am confident that I will damage the rim before a spoke fails. I have bent the rear axle in the Novatec hub. Must replace that at some point before it actually breaks. I have ridden the bike with these wheels off road too and not found any issues except for the fact I am riding on road tyres.

So dont get to worried about spoke count, the wheels simply have to be stiff enough for the rider and be well built if they are they will be fine. Also the Kinlin do a rim which is the same price as the DT swiss rim but has a asymmetric profile so why not use that. The only reason why the DT swiss rim is useful is you can use cheap thick rim tape and still get tubed tyre on with ease which of course makes them less ideal for tubeless tyres.

ononeboy

Looking to replace a set of D/A C24s I picked up 2nd hand as they've past the wear indicators. Looking to spend no more than £400. I'm 70 kg and needing a wheelset (rim brakes) that are mainly for training but that if I do race on them will handle it. Any advice? I had looked at the wheelsmith training wheelset, any other recommendations? It is hard to almost look past Shimano Ultegra 6800s when you can pick them up for £225 as a BC member

mrb123

ononeboy wrote:

Looking to replace a set of D/A C24s I picked up 2nd hand as they've past the wear indicators. Looking to spend no more than £400. I'm 70 kg and needing a wheelset (rim brakes) that are mainly for training but that if I do race on them will handle it. Any advice? I had looked at the wheelsmith training wheelset, any other recommendations? It is hard to almost look past Shimano Ultegra 6800s when you can pick them up for £225 as a BC member

http://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections ... from-1425g
These look a bit of a bargain with the very reliable Miche hubs. Still pretty light, and the option to pay a bit more of you want CX Rays.

cycleclinic

I think you have found out why the c24 wheels are not that great. They wear out far too quickly and you are left with great hubs that you cannot reuse.

MisterMuncher

I may have said this before, but surely something exists that would allow a rebuild, using semi-generic components. Is there something special about the hub that it couldn't take a CX-Ray or similar (in straight pull guise), or no option for 16/20 hole rims of suitable strength?

If you could rebuild a set of c24/35/50 onto a decent carbon rim, surely you'd be onto a winner.

ugo.santalucia

MisterMuncher wrote:

I may have said this before, but surely something exists that would allow a rebuild, using semi-generic components. Is there something special about the hub that it couldn't take a CX-Ray or similar (in straight pull guise), or no option for 16/20 hole rims of suitable strength?

If you could rebuild a set of c24/35/50 onto a decent carbon rim, surely you'd be onto a winner.

It is possible... as you say, it's about finding the rims

MisterMuncher

How about the like of this, then?

https://www.lightbicycle.com/Road-bicyc ... lable.html

(I'm genuinely interested at this point. Must be a good few DA hub sets kicking around)

ugo.santalucia

MisterMuncher wrote:

How about the like of this, then?

https://www.lightbicycle.com/Road-bicyc ... lable.html

(I'm genuinely interested at this point. Must be a good few DA hub sets kicking around)

Sure, it will work just fine. The main issue with straight pull hubs is that there is no calculator you can rely on for measuring the spoke length. The DT swiss one will give you the measurements you need for DT swiss hubs, but I wouldn't know how to calculate the length I need for a Shimano hub.

For the radial front that is not a problem, as you can plot the spoke length you have on the original wheelset and the rim ERD and you should be able to get the flange measurments you need... but the rear is crossed, so it's a bit trickier... there must be a way, just not sure which is the way.
You could buy your spokes from Just Riding Along, they build a lot of straight pull stuff and might be able to give you a tip on how to work out the length you need

MisterMuncher

I would have thought if one knew the length of a Shimano replacement, and the ERD of the stock and replacement rims, such a thing would be trivial.

ugo.santalucia

MisterMuncher wrote:

I would have thought if one knew the length of a Shimano replacement, and the ERD of the stock and replacement rims, such a thing would be trivial.

It is if you know the equation calculators use... I never personally looked into that.

In principle it should be easier than surveying a mountain using triangulation, at least you don't have to compensate for the Earth's curvature...

shortfall

thecycleclinic wrote:

the archetype is the obvious choice for a 17st rider with triple butted spokes. It will be alot stiffer than what you have. The Kinlin XR31T will handle your weight if sapim HM nipple washers are used. I always use these washers with kinlin rims. The spoke nipple bed is 2mm thick which is thick enough but for the sake of a few grams and a few pennies why take a chance.

The Kinlin rim is a much stiffer rim than the archetype and it has asymmetric extrusion for the rear. Spoke life for the kinlin build is therefore alot of miles. With the archetype spokes will out last the rims as well.

Handbuilt wheels are only as good as the wheelbuilder building them. Same with factory wheels. Campag happen to know how to produce a good wheel but I would say not all 17st riders have the same experience from zonda's.

Ok so I did a bit of ringing round asking shops for some advice and prices and Stan's rims seemed like a popular recommendation. Build prices seemed a bit steep though even with me supplying the hubs and so I looked at a bunch of websites and Hunt Dura seemed like a good wheel for a heavier rider like me. However looking at the specs they seemed very similar to your Borg all weather aero which came in much cheaper than the Hunts. So I am very tempted by a set of these with some Formula Pro RBC 25mm tyres but having never used tubeless I would appreciate some advice. An internet search suggests that Stan's sealant has to be topped up or replaced periodically depending on useage and conditions etc. What is your recommendation about when and how to do this?

Thanks.

drwae

I got my first hand built wheel set (I went with Malcom) they just feel QUALITY compared to the Shimano RS10 stock wheels and maybe the clicking from the freewheel will stop people walking out in the middle of the road (ok maybe that's too much to hope for)
Can't wait to take them for a spin on Friday
I just hope i'm not going to get a puncture because god knows how I'm going to refit tyres on those rims at the side of the road