Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

ugo.santalucia

Gregorio wrote:

It was from a comment from someone on weightwennies indicating he had better rigidity, but now looking at it I think the comparison was from radial to 2x NDS.

With 3x rear NDS I get a spoke length of 291 mm, rounding to 292.

With 28 you might want to look at 2 cross rather than 3, especially as the Hope has quite a big DS flange

Gregorio

Sure thing, I hadn't considered the effect of flange size on lacing pattern.

So for 2x Rear, my spoke length would come to:
NDS: 281.4mm ~= 282mm
DS: 277.7mm ~= 278mm

Does that sound good Ugo?

ugo.santalucia

Gregorio wrote:

Sure thing, I hadn't considered the effect of flange size on lacing pattern.

So for 2x Rear, my spoke length would come to:
NDS: 281.4mm ~= 282mm
DS: 277.7mm ~= 278mm

Does that sound good Ugo?

I am a bit off touch with spoke length, but it sounds pretty reasonable to me... Archetype was 280/284 (I must have built 100 sets of those 24/28 on Hope), so with the SL 23 278/282 should be bang on

Gregorio

Cool. Thanks a bunch.

And, thanks for all the work on the thread. It really helps.

Gregorio

Oh one last thing. On the Bike Hub Store, it is recommended to use spoke washers on the drive side of Panceti sl23. Would you suggest that as well, or is it overkill for my setup.

ugo.santalucia

Gregorio wrote:

Oh one last thing. On the Bike Hub Store, it is recommended to use spoke washers on the drive side of Panceti sl23. Would you suggest that as well, or is it overkill for my setup.

If you can find the Sapim HM, then go for it, other washers are difficult to use correctly. With the HM you are looking at 0.7 mm longer spokes, but you have already rounded up, so you should be fine.
I did buy some on ebay in the past, they are otherwise hard to source

Gregorio

Cool, I found them at the bikehubstore too btw http://www.bikehubstore.com/Sapim-Nipple-Washer-Round-PolyAx-p/spw-1.htm

ugo.santalucia

Gregorio wrote:

Cool, I found them at the bikehubstore too btw http://www.bikehubstore.com/Sapim-Nipple-Washer-Round-PolyAx-p/spw-1.htm

Yep, if ordering from the US works for you...

svetty

Just building my first sets on Archetype rims. Wheels seem to build themselves! Dish, radial and lateral trueness all just happen with even spoke tension. Soooo easy to build it's like magic

spasypaddy

anyone used the 30mm rims from Flo? thinking of getting them to build up

ugo.santalucia

spasypaddy wrote:

anyone used the 30mm rims from Flo? thinking of getting them to build up

https://whosatthewheel.com/2016/08/21/t ... vs-kinlin/

spasypaddy

thank you thats awesome.

im thinking of getting some for my best bike for when i go to spain intending on doing lots of climbing (and for the TT bike during the winter).

flo30 on hope hubs. should be a 1500g build id guess? i really need to sell my r-sys slrs.

ugo.santalucia

spasypaddy wrote:

thank you thats awesome.

im thinking of getting some for my best bike for when i go to spain intending on doing lots of climbing (and for the TT bike during the winter).

flo30 on hope hubs. should be a 1500g build id guess? i really need to sell my r-sys slrs.

Probably 1600g

agent_buchwald

I'm just about to build up some XR22 rims with Miche Primato hubs for my fixed gear - is it preferable to go 2x seeing as they are 28 hole rims and the hubs have a 60mm spoke hole diameter? Thanks

ugo.santalucia

yes

agent_buchwald

Thanks for the quick reply - really appreciate the advice.

ugo.santalucia

Agent Buchwald wrote:

Thanks for the quick reply - really appreciate the advice.

Don't go crazy with spoke gauge... single speed wheels are very strong by nature, if money is no issue I would use Sapim D-Light front and rear

cycleclinic

actually 3x works just fine for that fixed gear build. 2x works fine too so which ever you feel like.

wolfsbane2k

Thought this might be a good a place as any.
Has anyone got an opinion on wiggle's own spoke tension meter? (Lifeline tension meter for ~£25)
Because i don't have other wheels to test it against and i'm right at the weight limit of the wheels ( mavic askium), i want to "check" what's going on, and i also want to prep up for building my own wheels next year.

Ta

ugo.santalucia

Wolfsbane2k wrote:

Thought this might be a good a place as any.
Has anyone got an opinion on wiggle's own spoke tension meter? (Lifeline tension meter for ~£25)
Because i don't have other wheels to test it against and i'm right at the weight limit of the wheels ( mavic askium), i want to "check" what's going on, and i also want to prep up for building my own wheels next year.

Ta

Calibration is a manual process, if it costs 25 pounds it cannot have been individually calibrated

agent_buchwald

I'll probably go with 2x just for a change and was going to use Alpina F1 spokes but D-lights would be interesting, in theory would 2x be stiffer but less comfort, the rest of the internet is not that helpful.

timothyw

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Wolfsbane2k wrote:

Thought this might be a good a place as any.
Has anyone got an opinion on wiggle's own spoke tension meter? (Lifeline tension meter for ~£25)
Because i don't have other wheels to test it against and i'm right at the weight limit of the wheels ( mavic askium), i want to "check" what's going on, and i also want to prep up for building my own wheels next year.

Ta

Calibration is a manual process, if it costs 25 pounds it cannot have been individually calibrated

Do we have any reason to suspect the Park Tool equivalent which wiggle have for £35 is individually calibrated?

I think so long as you have a well built wheelset to compare tension with it'll probably do the job.

If accuracy is important then can't you hang a whole load of weights from a single spoke to calibrate from?

wolfsbane2k

TimothyW wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Wolfsbane2k wrote:

Thought this might be a good a place as any.
Has anyone got an opinion on wiggle's own spoke tension meter? (Lifeline tension meter for ~£25)
Because i don't have other wheels to test it against and i'm right at the weight limit of the wheels ( mavic askium), i want to "check" what's going on, and i also want to prep up for building my own wheels next year.

Ta

Calibration is a manual process, if it costs 25 pounds it cannot have been individually calibrated

Do we have any reason to suspect the Park Tool equivalent which wiggle have for £35 is individually calibrated?

I think so long as you have a well built wheelset to compare tension with it'll probably do the job.

If accuracy is important then can't you hang a whole load of weights from a single spoke to calibrate from?

That was my thoughts - I don't know if the Park Tools one is a "real" bargain at that price as an alternative.
My problem is I don't have a well built wheelset to do the comparision against - I'm trying to use a tool to build my confidence that I'm "in the ball park" when sorting out my current only wheels.

timothyw

Over several years of killing wheels, I've learned to trust the wheel builder at my LBS - it might be best for you to just find a local competent wheelbuilder and drop your wheels in for a tension & true.

Assuming the spokes aren't already on their last legs from metal fatigue then that should give you a wheelset that'll last a good while and ought be cheaper than the spoke tension meter anyway.

wolfsbane2k

TimothyW wrote:

Over several years of killing wheels, I've learned to trust the wheel builder at my LBS - it might be best for you to just find a local competent wheelbuilder and drop your wheels in for a tension & true.

Assuming the spokes aren't already on their last legs from metal fatigue then that should give you a wheelset that'll last a good while and ought be cheaper than the spoke tension meter anyway.

My problem is the 3 local LBS's have disappeared, and the 2 mobile repair servicers /wheel builders that cover the area I don't trust.

The wheels don't "currently" need a true, but I'm looking/planning ahead to the knowledge that they "will likely need one soon", given the winter roads.. (that reminds me, must report 2 new potholes.. :S)

ugo.santalucia

The Park tool is not calibrated either... meaning they do a general calibration (how many turns of the screw to get a given reading)... they supply them all the same and as a result some are better than others. The Dt tensio is individually calibrated and it costs 300 quid. Other than that, they all work with the same principle

wolfsbane2k

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The Park tool is not calibrated either... meaning they do a general calibration (how many turns of the screw to get a given reading)... they supply them all the same and as a result some are better than others. The Dt tensio is individually calibrated and it costs 300 quid. Other than that, they all work with the same principle

Hmm, I swear I saw it mentioned as "calibrated" on the PT website, but agree that there isn't a accuracy on the calibration mentioned anywhere. Its that danger of "sell me tools to support my confidence" approach, whereas it might actually be doing more damage.

Yep, the dt tensio is definitely unobtainium.

onyourright

If you’re going to spend anywhere near £300 on a tensiometer, you may as well get the Jobst Brandt design, which has a couple of significant advantages over others as explained here and here. FSA used to make a version, but it’s now made by Wheel Fanatyk.

cycleclinic

the current sapim guage is actually the best I have come across. It gives very reliable readings on all spokes but I have only have charts for sapim spokes. The dt guage is goos but it fails to show a reading for CX-ray spokes on the NDS rear wheel.

the park gauge is a next to useless. It give relative tension but is a poor guide for absolute tension.
If there is not wheel builder in your area then put the wheel in a box and post it one you do trust.

When I first started building wheels. All I had was the park gauge but I quickly figured out to use it only to get relative tension right and go by feel for absolute tension. It turns out I was pretty much right about how tight the spokes needed to be. So the moral here is you dont need a reference wheel but the confidence to just to say that is tight enough and no no more.

the DT gauge and the sapim gauge are easily ordered. all you have to do is call a shop. It is not something you find on the web. that is the problem these days people just assume everything is available online.

wolfsbane2k

thecycleclinic wrote:

the current sapim guage is actually the best I have come across. It gives very reliable readings on all spokes but I have only have charts for sapim spokes. The dt guage is goos but it fails to show a reading for CX-ray spokes on the NDS rear wheel.

the park gauge is a next to useless. It give relative tension but is a poor guide for absolute tension.
If there is not wheel builder in your area then put the wheel in a box and post it one you do trust.

When I first started building wheels. All I had was the park gauge but I quickly figured out to use it only to get relative tension right and go by feel for absolute tension. It turns out I was pretty much right about how tight the spokes needed to be. So the moral here is you dont need a reference wheel but the confidence to just to say that is tight enough and no no more.

the DT gauge and the sapim gauge are easily ordered. all you have to do is call a shop. It is not something you find on the web. that is the problem these days people just assume everything is available online.

Ordering and paying are definitely separate things :-) I just know from past experience that my sensitivity to the right force is way off, so I love calibrated torque wrenches etc, and I want a step in the right direction for the spokes as well.

Problem with sending wheels away for a tension and true is if their the only wheels you have, you get a little stuck (yes, n+1 etc)....

Yes. I know I should buy the bits and build the wheels, and go from there.