Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

sloppyschleckonds

Anyone used these guys:

http://www.slowbuild.eu

Even with the low £/€ they seem cheap. No english website so you'll have to use Chrome to translate.

ugo.santalucia

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Anyone used these guys:

http://www.slowbuild.eu

Even with the low £/€ they seem cheap. No english website so you'll have to use Chrome to translate.

the currency is in Euro cubed, in actual Euros it comes up even a lot cheaper

darkhairedlord

Wolfsbane2k wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The Park tool is not calibrated either... meaning they do a general calibration (how many turns of the screw to get a given reading)... they supply them all the same and as a result some are better than others. The Dt tensio is individually calibrated and it costs 300 quid. Other than that, they all work with the same principle

Hmm, I swear I saw it mentioned as "calibrated" on the PT website, but agree that there isn't a accuracy on the calibration mentioned anywhere. Its that danger of "sell me tools to support my confidence" approach, whereas it might actually be doing more damage.

Yep, the dt tensio is definitely unobtainium.

shirly, you just take spoke and hang some weights off of it, stick the meter on and bobs your uncle.

wolfsbane2k

darkhairedlord wrote:

Wolfsbane2k wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The Park tool is not calibrated either... meaning they do a general calibration (how many turns of the screw to get a given reading)... they supply them all the same and as a result some are better than others. The Dt tensio is individually calibrated and it costs 300 quid. Other than that, they all work with the same principle

Hmm, I swear I saw it mentioned as "calibrated" on the PT website, but agree that there isn't a accuracy on the calibration mentioned anywhere. Its that danger of "sell me tools to support my confidence" approach, whereas it might actually be doing more damage.

Yep, the dt tensio is definitely unobtainium.

shirly, you just take spoke and hang some weights off of it, stick the meter on and bobs your uncle.

Indeed - instant likely "close enough" calibration, and im considering it.

ugo.santalucia

Wolfsbane2k wrote:

darkhairedlord wrote:

Wolfsbane2k wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The Park tool is not calibrated either... meaning they do a general calibration (how many turns of the screw to get a given reading)... they supply them all the same and as a result some are better than others. The Dt tensio is individually calibrated and it costs 300 quid. Other than that, they all work with the same principle

Hmm, I swear I saw it mentioned as "calibrated" on the PT website, but agree that there isn't a accuracy on the calibration mentioned anywhere. Its that danger of "sell me tools to support my confidence" approach, whereas it might actually be doing more damage.

Yep, the dt tensio is definitely unobtainium.

shirly, you just take spoke and hang some weights off of it, stick the meter on and bobs your uncle.

Indeed - instant likely "close enough" calibration, and im considering it.

It won't work. The range you need to calibrate needs you to use 50-150 Kg of mass. I am not quite sure how you plan to hang 100 Kg from a spoke... or lift 100 Kg from the ground for what that matters.

timothyw

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Wolfsbane2k wrote:

darkhairedlord wrote:

Wolfsbane2k wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The Park tool is not calibrated either... meaning they do a general calibration (how many turns of the screw to get a given reading)... they supply them all the same and as a result some are better than others. The Dt tensio is individually calibrated and it costs 300 quid. Other than that, they all work with the same principle

Hmm, I swear I saw it mentioned as "calibrated" on the PT website, but agree that there isn't a accuracy on the calibration mentioned anywhere. Its that danger of "sell me tools to support my confidence" approach, whereas it might actually be doing more damage.

Yep, the dt tensio is definitely unobtainium.

shirly, you just take spoke and hang some weights off of it, stick the meter on and bobs your uncle.

Indeed - instant likely "close enough" calibration, and im considering it.

It won't work. The range you need to calibrate needs you to use 50-150 Kg of mass. I am not quite sure how you plan to hang 100 Kg from a spoke... or lift 100 Kg from the ground for what that matters.

Er it'll work fine? It creates a number of engineering challenges though, sure (and that is perhaps putting it mildly).

Most people who have built calibration jigs do it with a couple of bolts and a high capacity spring balance, like say one of these:
https://www.fishingmegastore.com/lineae ... 14661.html

Here's an example jig:
https://wheelworks.co.nz/spoke-tension- ... libration/

And one on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgsz7l1GWoI

I'd suggest that for most of the amateurs here though, calibrating from a known good wheel with identical spokes is probably a better bet.

If you don't have a known good wheel, get one built....

hypster

Wolfsbane2k wrote:

Thought this might be a good a place as any.
Has anyone got an opinion on wiggle's own spoke tension meter? (Lifeline tension meter for ~£25)
Because i don't have other wheels to test it against and i'm right at the weight limit of the wheels ( mavic askium), i want to "check" what's going on, and i also want to prep up for building my own wheels next year.

Ta

I've got the Park tension meter and the Lifeline one looks very similar in concept. The problem with these cheaper types of tension meter is they are not particularly accurate so absolute measurements of tension are difficult without a reference. They are fine however for relative tension measurements so they are useful for getting even tensions all around the wheel which is half the battle when building wheels.

I built my own spoke tension rig whereby I can load any spoke to a required tension using a digital scale and then calibrate the tension meter against it. For my Park tension meter it is usually over reading by around 10% which means that I would actually under tension any wheel I built by that amount. What I do is I load a spoke in the tension rig and take it up to 120 N and then see what the Park tension meter is reading and then build my wheels to that.

Mavic Aksium wheels have proprietary flat spokes so it will be difficult for you to gauge a maximum tension but at least you will be able to equalise tensions on each side of the wheel if that is your problem. Maxmimum tensions will be on the drive side of the rear wheel so if you are using the Lifeline tension meter I would measure all those and maybe gauge the reading on the tension meter of the highest spokes and equalise all those on the drive side to that. Make sure you check the wheel dish and the non-drive side spoke tensions will also need to be equalised but their ultimate tensions will be what they will be governed by the drive side tension and the wheel dish.

Hope that helps.

Milton81

personally I think these days off the shelf wheels are a better and much easier option. There are hundreds of manufactures, lower prices, warranty etc... etc..

ugo.santalucia

Milton81 wrote:

personally I think these days off the shelf wheels are a better and much easier option. There are hundreds of manufactures, lower prices, warranty etc... etc..

Great, except this is a thread specifically about building wheels and hand built wheels

jdee84

lower prices maybe but you get what you pay for

but i think with a similar level of components a hanf built set is generally going to work out cheaper and better value for money than a factory set

cycleclinic

Also the warranty from factory wheels is not really worth much so many get out clauses. Wheel builders will generally back there work up as well. some do it better than others but generally all will provide a warranty service. Sales of goods act means some basic cover is law. That is all you get off branded pre built wheels anyway (break a spoke two into your ownership of a shimano wheel and they wont replace the spoke or rebuild the wheel for you).

agent_buchwald

Does the size of wheel affect the ideal lacing pattern? I've got what looks like a 14" wheel with quite large flange hubs, would 2 cross be better? thanks in advance.

cycleclinic

14" you can do 1x with that. Do you mean 24"? Yes rim diamter does affect lacing pattern. use the force or just go with 2x.

ugo.santalucia

for very small wheels you cross but do not overlap the spokes in the build... things like 20 inch and smaller

Thick Mike

I've just bought a secondhand wheelset. I didn't realise that the hub on the rear wheel is set up for a Campagnolo cassette, and I need to use a Shimano 10 speed cassette. I thought it would be a straightforward case of bolting on a standard adaptor, but with further reading the number of variables is bewildering. Can someone link me to the part I need, I'm feeling a bit lost?

The rear hub is a Campagnolo Chorus.

Thanks in advance

agent_buchwald

Thanks - I think it's what's called a 17" rim, ERD is 363 and the spokes are basically 160mm for 1x or 168mm for 2x - I'm finding out how much I didn't know about rim sizing, just discovered 26 x 1 3/8, 590, 650A as well.

MikeBrew

I have a powertap G3 with a 10 speed Shimano free hub, built into a set of Campag Neutrons. Can I get an 11 speed free hub for this, and would fitting such mean that the wheel needed to be redished ? Thanks in advance.

ugo.santalucia

MikeBrew wrote:

I have a powertap G3 with a 10 speed Shimano free hub, built into a set of Campag Neutrons. Can I get an 11 speed free hub for this, and would fitting such mean that the wheel needed to be redished ? Thanks in advance.

Powertap uses Novatec internals and freehub. The consensus from the suppliers of OEM Novatec hubs is that an 11 speed Novatec freehub won't work on a hub designed for 10, but in practice it seems to work in most cases, bar a bit of rubbing of the washer and provided you fit the correct end cap that is supplied with the freehub. Then you need to find out which Novatec freehub you need, if a model A or a model B, which depends on the axle diameter (A is 12 mm, B is 15). The Cycle clinic should be able to give you a definitive answer on the subject

ugo.santalucia

Agent Buchwald wrote:

Thanks - I think it's what's called a 17" rim, ERD is 363 and the spokes are basically 160mm for 1x or 168mm for 2x - I'm finding out how much I didn't know about rim sizing, just discovered 26 x 1 3/8, 590, 650A as well.

OK, so small rim = don't overlap the spokes when you cross them in the build and bear in mind that the calculators are based on you overlapping the spokes, so you might want to round the length down, rather than up. I'd say 1 cross should be adequate for most hole counts, unless it's something crazy like 32 or 36, in which case go for 2 cross

agent_buchwald

Hi, no it's 28 hole, so 1 cross, no over-lapping, cheers again

jimwalsh

would like to find out how tubeless carbon wheels are these days.

does heat at the braketrack affect the sealant/rim tyre interface?

are there decent aero deep section options for tt riders?

Could anyone in the know *coughs* (malcom ugo et al) give some insight?

I have only ever used brand name carbon tubulars (hed etc) as I am keen on not losing teeth... my hed stinger 6 has developed a crack through the front brake track which means goodbye.

i love my alloy road/cx tubeless wheels and would like to transition to tubeless on carbon for tt's. the enve 7.8 appear to run tubeless options but at a cool £2700 i would rather something a little cheaper...

thanks for any insight.

Thick Mike

Thick Mike wrote:

I've just bought a secondhand wheelset. I didn't realise that the hub on the rear wheel is set up for a Campagnolo cassette, and I need to use a Shimano 10 speed cassette. I thought it would be a straightforward case of bolting on a standard adaptor, but with further reading the number of variables is bewildering. Can someone link me to the part I need, I'm feeling a bit lost?

The rear hub is a Campagnolo Chorus.

Thanks in advance

Not sure if this got missed...or nobody knows! :-)

Any recommendations of people to contact if you're not sure?

ugo.santalucia

Thick Mike wrote:

Thick Mike wrote:

I've just bought a secondhand wheelset. I didn't realise that the hub on the rear wheel is set up for a Campagnolo cassette, and I need to use a Shimano 10 speed cassette. I thought it would be a straightforward case of bolting on a standard adaptor, but with further reading the number of variables is bewildering. Can someone link me to the part I need, I'm feeling a bit lost?

The rear hub is a Campagnolo Chorus.

Thanks in advance

Not sure if this got missed...or nobody knows! :-)

Any recommendations of people to contact if you're not sure?

It might be possible to fit a fulcrum for Shimano freehub, as it is compatible with some campagnolo hubs, as well it might not. Campagnolo splined/shimano spaced cassettes might be available, but generally it's the opposite combo people look for.
The last resort is a J-Tek shift mate, incidentally I have one I no longer need

Thick Mike

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Thick Mike wrote:

Thick Mike wrote:

I've just bought a secondhand wheelset. I didn't realise that the hub on the rear wheel is set up for a Campagnolo cassette, and I need to use a Shimano 10 speed cassette. I thought it would be a straightforward case of bolting on a standard adaptor, but with further reading the number of variables is bewildering. Can someone link me to the part I need, I'm feeling a bit lost?

The rear hub is a Campagnolo Chorus.

Thanks in advance

Not sure if this got missed...or nobody knows! :-)

Any recommendations of people to contact if you're not sure?

It might be possible to fit a fulcrum for Shimano freehub, as it is compatible with some campagnolo hubs, as well it might not. Campagnolo splined/shimano spaced cassettes might be available, but generally it's the opposite combo people look for.
The last resort is a J-Tek shift mate, incidentally I have one I no longer need

Thanks Ugo...Sounds like I need to call someone at campagnolo or fulcrum.

Not sure about the shift mate, hope I can find a hub solution.

I guess the proper thing to do is to rebuild the wheel with a shimano hub? Is that doable for a reasonably competent diyer? Would I need new spokes, or can I reuse the ones that are on the wheel at the moment?

cycleclinic

chorus hubs mean pre 2006. The FH -RE415 body is what is used and is campag only. It might be possible to swap in a modern axle and the FH-BUU015X1 freehub in and use you existing NDS end cap arrangement. Never tried this as I dont use shimano kit myself. A jtek shiftmate is a cheaper option.

redvee

The last rear wheel I built was breaking spokes on a regular basis so took it along to the local wheelbuilding whizzkid for a rebuild as it wasn't tensioned properly, hence the breaking spokes. After paying £75 for parts and labour :shock: I collected the wheel and asked what warranty he offered, lifetime was the response so any breakages etc means a 2 mile ride back to him with a wheel strapped on the pannier rack.

cycleclinic

Well I can put it this Jimwalsh. A elite team next year is using my carbon tubeless wheels with tubeless tyres. They dont think there is a problem. I dont either. Been racing on tubeless all year but that has been around east anglia which is hardly mountain country.

To get the sealant to boil you would have to get carbon rims past the Tg of the resins probably at which point you have other problems.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

Well I can put it this Jimwalsh. A elite team next year is using my carbon tubeless wheels with tubeless tyres. They dont think there is a problem. I dont either. Been racing on tubeless all year but that has been around east anglia which is hardly mountain country.

To get the sealant to boil you would have to get carbon rims past the Tg of the resins probably at which point you have other problems.

I don't think boiling sealant is the problem. However, how is the tyre going to perform if it gets really hot? What if it suddenly loses the seal to the rim and lets air out?

cycleclinic

If the tyre is a tight fit to begin with on a proper tubeless rim (i.e the bead does not unlock once pressure has been removed) that should not happen however it might be possible if the rim get so hot that you pass the TG temp of the resins and the rim warps badly. I have had a tubeless tyre unseat when I damaged a rim in a hole. Given you can run lower pressure with tubeless you do have more head room. I know the rim I use are good up to about 120psi (likewise other good rims will keep a tyre on at this pressure) so starting with 80 psi in the tyres allows the temperature inside the tyre to increase by 50% in kelvin. So if the outside temp is 293K (20 celcius) that means the temp inside the tyre would have to get passed 445 K to get you passed 120 psi as air pressure is directly proportional to tempertaure for a fixed volume of gas. 445K is 166 celcius so I dont think it is a big probem. However if you do that you have not observed my rule of thumb. If the decent you are doing would get alloy rims too hot to handle then dont use carbon clinchers. I don't care who has made the rim or what fancy resins have been used, it is carbon fibre and does not conduct heat well. Respect the laws of physics and you will stay alive. Disrespect them and they will do something horrible to you.

paul2718

thecycleclinic wrote:

Well I can put it this Jimwalsh. A elite team next year is using my carbon tubeless wheels with tubeless tyres. They dont think there is a problem. I dont either. Been racing on tubeless all year but that has been around east anglia which is hardly mountain country.

Is there a ready solution to needing to be on the UCI non-standard wheel list for racing?

(I have a pair of 'direct from China' 25mm carbon tubulars that side-step the spirit of the UCI by fitting the definition of traditional wheel.)

Paul