Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

gabriel959

Did you manage to check apreading?

apreading

there is a very small amount of play - if you have lots then perhaps the retaining rings need to be pushed in a bit further, but looking at it, I dont think it matters because the fork pushes them tight against the hub when you do up the thru axle. One of the earlier hubs (711) they still fall out after conversion - Novatec even posted a video about this: http://novatec.imb2b.com/video/index.php?itemid=134

So fairly convinced that the retaining ring is just to stop them falling out and getting lost, rather than to remove any play.

I should add that mine have been silent since they were greased - sooo much nicer!

And sorry that we have taken the wheel builder threat off topic everyone!

brettjmcc

ugo.santalucia wrote:

finally managed to build a set of FLO 30... very nice rims indeed

Very nice Ugo, being seriously thinking about getting some of their new carbon rims to build for the TT bike over the winter

ugo.santalucia

brettjmcc wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

finally managed to build a set of FLO 30... very nice rims indeed

Very nice Ugo, being seriously thinking about getting some of their new carbon rims to build for the TT bike over the winter

Go for it, they are very well priced... remember to use Sapim HM washers in the build

ugo.santalucia

Interesting, although in its infancy

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/af ... n=416cf50a

drlodge

Rode my new wheels from Malcolm @TheCycleClinic last night, these are his tubeless "BORG 50" version. 'Twas a 48 miler including a chaingang session so pretty fast riding. Most was at threshold (or above) giving both me and the bike a damn good workout. Have these wheels fitted to the Massive Attack.

I'm not sure what useful things I can say when reviewing wheels - they're round so of course they "roll well". Fitted with IRC roadlites (tubeless) and pumped to 80 front and 90 rear, the ride is compliant but the wheels feel very stiff. A softer ride than the previous tubular carbon wheels I had, but those were pumped to 120psi. Had the brake pads very close to the rims and no sign of flex. The wheel/tyre combination makes that nice resounding "ringing" noise typical of tubular tyres on deep carbon rims, but these are tubeless. At speed it certainly seems easier to keep the speed up and power goes straight to the road.

I'd say the riding experience is as expected given the mix of components used, and I think for the money (£702 with BC discount, skewers & tyres fitted, Campag carbon pads and VAR tyre levers included) its everything I'd want from a wheel:
- decent hubs (Miche Primato) that don't cost a fortune
- toroidal profile rims, 50mm deep, wide and tubeless compatible. With 23c Roadlites there's a perfect alignment of the tyre and rim for good aerodynamics
- CX-Ray spokes, 20 radial front and 24 2x rear.

An excellent wheel for every day fast use without the hassle of tubular tyres and without the need to sell a kidney. What's not to like? Recommended.

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

Rode my new wheels from Malcolm @TheCycleClinic last night, these are his tubeless "BORG 50" version. 'Twas a 48 miler including a chaingang session so pretty fast riding. Most was at threshold (or above) giving both me and the bike a damn good workout. Have these wheels fitted to the Massive Attack.

Are you sure these are not 35-40 mm? They don't look like 50 mm, but maybe it's the angle of the photos

drlodge

Yes they are 50mm, I even got my ruler out to check! If you look at the middle picture you can see that the brake track is very wide, so the remaining shiny part of the rim is not that deep giving the illusion of a shallower rim.

gimpl

So had my handbuilts a few months now; Dura Ace Hubs and Mavic 32h Open Pro rims. Cost just over £500

Those that frequent the Workshop forum may remember I posted about the derailleur just catching on the spokes under load. This was particularly frustrating for me as it was the very reason I went down the handbuilt route and the original Giant PSL1's only did it under quite heavy load - I was trying to get rid of this problem. Back and forth to the wheel builder a few times and the issue keeps recurring. For the record I'm on the large side; 6'4" and 100kg. My brief to the wheel builder was roll well and stiff enough to cope with my weight.

Just had the third visit to the shop and they have offered to replace the wheels with Fulcrum Racing 3's and £70. I'm not so sure so thought I would garner your opinions.

flasher

A guy I ride with kept popping spokes on his Racing 3's and he's a good 10kgs less that you, he now rides handbuilts. I'm no wheel expert but going from 32 spokes to 16/21 seems like a bad idea to me.

I'd have thought that properly built Dura Ace/Open Pros would be bullet proof for you!

ugo.santalucia

Gimpl wrote:

So had my handbuilts a few months now; Dura Ace Hubs and Mavic 32h Open Pro rims. Cost just over £500

Those that frequent the Workshop forum may remember I posted about the derailleur just catching on the spokes under load. This was particularly frustrating for me as it was the very reason I went down the handbuilt route and the original Giant PSL1's only did it under quite heavy load - I was trying to get rid of this problem. Back and forth to the wheel builder a few times and the issue keeps recurring. For the record I'm on the large side; 6'4" and 100kg. My brief to the wheel builder was roll well and stiff enough to cope with my weight. .

it's a derailleur/hanger problem... you can't bend the drive side spokes as much as it's needed to catch the RD cage... you simply can't... a case of barking at the wrong tree I'm afraid... address the real problem

cycleclinic

The open pro flexes alot this maybe part of the problem also the wheel may not be perfectly dished. you will know if the dish is out as the wheel will sit off centre slightly. If it is a dish issue then get it corrected.

Sell the wheels you and get a new set based on a wide stiff rim. The open pro is a long way from stiff and it is not possible to built a really stiff wheel with it no matter what anyone says (even with a 36H rim you can de tension NDS rear spokes when sideloading the rim by hand with the hub on a block of wood).

The Fulcrum R3 do not use a wide rim. They are fairly stiff though but stiffer is easy. How the R3 will cope with your weight will depend on how you ride. Some low spoke count wheels do well other don't.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

The open pro flexes alot this maybe part of the problem also the wheel may not be perfectly dished. you will know if the dish is out as the wheel will sit off centre slightly. If it is a dish issue then get it corrected.

Sell the wheels you and get a new set based on a wide stiff rim. The open pro is a long way from stiff and it is not possible to built a really stiff wheel with it no matter what anyone says (even with a 36H rim you can de tension NDS rear spokes when sideloading the rim by hand with the hub on a block of wood).

Nonsense...

The wheel cannot be "overdished" beyond the point where spokes are vertical, whch would be necessary for the spokes to touch the mech... it would collapse. The rim can be as noodly as you like but the spokes cannot bend enough to touch the rear derailleur cage.
What is likely to be the problem is that under pressure, the mech cage bends towards the spokes to touch them. The OP should check the mech has no play in its structure and that the hanger is solid and not bent.

Also, maybe worth checking the limit screw, maybe the derailleur is moving beyond the position which is necessary to push the chain onto the biggest sprocket... maybe one millimeter adjustment is all it takes to avoid that happening

gimpl

Thank you for your replies so far.

Ugo - the rear mech has been checked now each time its gone in, it was slightly out to begin with but not anymore. Ironically now that it has been straightened the old wheels don't catch anymore! Very frustrating. I did fiddle with the limiter screw before taking in to the LBS and did manage to move it far enough away however then couldn't get it into the 28 tooth cog so had to move it back. I'm thinking that it shouldn't be that close in the first place.

With regards to the flex - I'm certainly no expert but I would expect the flex to occur near the hub where the main force is although I can see how the rim would affect it too. One of the reasons the LBS is recommending the Fulcrums is because they have a large flange and 2:1 spoke ration on the drive side.

drlodge

I've had similar issues with my Massive Attack, using wheels that are fine on the Rourke. The rear derailleur is Campag Chorus EPS and I checked the hanger alignment when building the bike up. The wheels were built by Ugo so it can't be those!
Looking from behind when in the largest sprocket, there is quite some clearance between the RD cage and the spokes, however when chugging up a hill the RD cage would *just* catch a few of the spokes. I got round this problem by screwing in the bottom gear limit screw, but because the RD is electronic, it puts some strain on the motor/gears when in that gear and the RD does not always want to move out of bottom gear.
I haven't tried unwinding the limit screw now that I have different wheels but I am at a bit of a loss to understand why I had this problem at all. I assume either the RD cage is moving inwards when under load and/or the rear wheel spokes are flexing outwards with my weight on the wheel.

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

I haven't tried unwinding the limit screw now that I have different wheels but I am at a bit of a loss to understand why I had this problem at all. I assume either the RD cage is moving inwards when under load and/or the rear wheel spokes are flexing outwards with my weight on the wheel.

The former... RD are surprisingly bendy and occasionally when they move sideways they also move a degree or two inwards or outwards

cycleclinic

The wheel could be dished a bit too much to the DS by 1mm or so not enough to get the wheel to collapse but enough to cause the mech to rub. However ugo point about the mech hanger and limit screws is worth checking it may actually be that. I was assuming that this had been checked but it is probably wise not to assume either.

I would actually be surprised if the wheel was able to flex enough to cause derailuer rubbing so it probably is not that on reflection.

The rim has an impact on overall wheel stiffness and it the wheel that is flexing lateral wheel stiffness is combination of spoke count and spoke lacing pattern (i.e spoke length), spoke gauge, bracing angle and rim stiffness. Flex happens in all wheels but the stiffer the wheel the less flex you get (movement at the brake track is different as this is affect by rim depth and if the NDS spokes go slack both of which are dependant on wheel stiffness).

the fulcrum wheels lacing pattern does not make the wheel stiffer the opposite in fact but NDS spokes cant go slack limiting movement at the brake track which is often confused with improved stiffness. the issue you have is movement to the DS so fuclcrum's lacing pattern wont help (16 spokes vs 12 DS makes no difference as the wheel flexs as a whole not just on the DS o if the wheel is less stiff due to 2:1 lacing vs 1:1 which it is then 2:1 lacing wont help unless the wheel is stiffer overall).

Large flanges do not help lateral stiffness there is barely no change in bracing angle. Large flanges improve torsional stiffness though which limits tension changes when torque is applied.

MikeBrew

Gimpl wrote:

Thank you for your replies so far.

Ugo - the rear mech has been checked now each time its gone in, it was slightly out to begin with but not anymore. Ironically now that it has been straightened the old wheels don't catch anymore! Very frustrating. I did fiddle with the limiter screw before taking in to the LBS and did manage to move it far enough away however then couldn't get it into the 28 tooth cog so had to move it back. I'm thinking that it shouldn't be that close in the first place.

With regards to the flex - I'm certainly no expert but I would expect the flex to occur near the hub where the main force is although I can see how the rim would affect it too. One of the reasons the LBS is recommending the Fulcrums is because they have a large flange and 2:1 spoke ration on the drive side.

I'd go with the Fulcrums. The build and longevity of Fulcrum wheels is superb and well known. One of the main drawbacks of hand builts is that they very often have zero objective quality control, oftentimes only being "checked" by the guy who built them. Most people are extremely poor at spotting their own mistakes.
Many one-man-band hand builders will happily wax lyrical about how good they think their products are, but that's a very subjective opinion that doesn't always translate cleanly into real world, on the road, events. Conversely, wheels from a respectable established company like Fulcrum, are very much a known quantity and come with the back up of a very professional company that has thorough, objective and effective QC processes in place...

ugo.santalucia

Found this article, very interesting and not too lengthy or technical

http://www.cyclist.co.uk/mavic/1008/mav ... amechanger

webberhyde

Opinions welcome...

Been toying with buying some carbon aero disc brake wheels (around the £1k mark) for a while now and feel ready to push the button on some.

I was leaning towards the Hunt 50mm jobs, however now see they've sold out for the year and don't seem to be shipping again until 2017!

So assuming that is the case, I've been looking at alternatives.

Heard plenty of good things about Wheelsmith, anyone know what the quality of the "Wheelsmith" hubs are like (rebranded novatecs?) is it worth the 150 quid extra for the hope pro 4s? http://www.wheelsmith.co.uk/#!powertap/ ... 96a7952154

Anyone used Spin /ride full gas before? Like the idea of their wide rim options, but finding little info about whether they have disc specific rim options and choices for disc hubs. All I've seen is DT Swiss 350s in thru-axle / centre lock flavour. I need QRs and 6 bolt for the moment (with hopefully adapters for future cross compatibility). Will contact them if need be.
http://ridefullgas.com/the-speedster-dm ... 565g-pair/

Anyone with any kind of opinion on those or any other rivals worth considering? Seen some Reynolds Assaults at quite favourable prices too.

Cheers

cycleclinic

Novatec hubs are quite reliable. I personally dont think Hope hubs are worth the extra money. As for a carbon disc brake wheels worth it maybe but most disc brake bikes are not that aero to begin with so I am not sure what wheel like this would add.

What are you hoping the wheels to do for you?

webberhyde

I have Novatecs on a set of wheels I use currently, so know they are decent for the money. I'm just not sure if that's what the "wheelsmith" hubs are.

I'm under no illusion that getting some "aero" wheels will suddenly make me a few minutes quicker round my 50k loop. Don't worry about that. And i'm certainly not expecting to see significant gains whilst they're strapped to my beloved Genesis Equilibrium!

Considering I've been running bombproof 32 spoke novatecs on archetype rims for the last few years, I just want some nice wheels, that will inevitably be lighter, look good and perform well, whilst i've got a bit of money (before it gets put on a house deposit!) to treat myself.

I'm also hoping to see more aero carbon disc bikes in the near future, so would like these as a nice second pair/upgrade from stock wheels, for a new bike somewhere along the line.

jdee84

What width of stans rim tape would I need to use for the pacenti sl23 v2?

cycleclinic

21mm tape.

Is it too much to ask for rims to be round? Just had another pair (I will not name the brand as i don't know if it a two off or normal yet) that where a whopping 1.4mm out when tensions are even. Pacenti by the way seem to fixed there problem with the SL23 with the new batch of rims. There are seems to be a sucessor for the SL23 due next year.

jdee84

thecycleclinic wrote:

21mm tape.

Is it too much to ask for rims to be round? Just had another pair (I will not name the brand as i don't know if it a two off or normal yet) that where a whopping 1.4mm out when tensions are even. Pacenti by the way seem to fixed there problem with the SL23 with the new batch of rims. There are seems to be a sucessor for the SL23 due next year.

Thanks!

My sl23 had the pacenti rim tape on them i was travelling with the bike using a rented bike box alan it was tough getting the wheels in the slots with the 25mm roadlites even deflated. Due to the box the tyre seems to have maybe have gotten in under the tape and pushed it up so i can see a spoke hole.

Would changing to stans be a better option than the pacenti tape?

cycleclinic

Never tried Pacenti tape. I have found tubeless rim tape to be similar regardless of the brand. 21mm tape does not cover the rim fully. 25mm tape might be too wide. tubeless tyres are a tight fit so deflating the tyre will more than likely cause an issue with the rim tape.

the best bike box is a big cardboard one and pack the bike well. Or drive to your destination with the bike in the boot, my prefered option.

jdee84

thecycleclinic wrote:

Never tried Pacenti tape. I have found tubeless rim tape to be similar regardless of the brand. 21mm tape does not cover the rim fully. 25mm tape might be too wide. tubeless tyres are a tight fit so deflating the tyre will more than likely cause an issue with the rim tape.

the best bike box is a big cardboard one and pack the bike well. Or drive to your destination with the bike in the boot, my prefered option.

So really then tubeless tyres can never be deflated or it means new rim tape? What about having to top up sealant or change a tyre?

cycleclinic

I did not say that. deflating and then squashing it into a box so the tyre unseats can lead to the rim tape picking up if it is not fitted properly i.e a kink in it. Deflating by itself is not a problem as the bead remains locked in place. This is only an issue when you try to squash everything into a bike box.

Again part of the issue is 23mm wide rim tape is needed but as that does not exist 21mm has to do just dont unseat the tyre unless you are removing it. unseating the tyre when it comes to removing the tyre does not pick the rim tape up unless the tape is not fitted properly.

tom3

thecycleclinic wrote:

21mm tape.

Is it too much to ask for rims to be round? Just had another pair (I will not name the brand as i don't know if it a two off or normal yet) that where a whopping 1.4mm out when tensions are even. Pacenti by the way seem to fixed there problem with the SL23 with the new batch of rims. There are seems to be a sucessor for the SL23 due next year.

Malcolm, any info on the new 2017 pacenti rim if that is what you meant?

Ernesider

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Found this article, very interesting and not too lengthy or technical

http://www.cyclist.co.uk/mavic/1008/mav ... amechanger

Ok Ugo time to name and acclaim ..!!

It is wheel buying time for me and as the number one advocate of hand built wheels on these pages
I would like you to suggest a build to match or surpass the Dura Ace 9000 C24 in General cycling and climbing
At a competitive price.

Also i would like a reliable wheel builder(s) recommended to do the job ..!!